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AOL Tries New Tactic to Keep Customers
Posted by
samzenpus
on Wed Jun 21, 2006 08:36 PM
from the it's-like-the-hotel-california dept.
from the it's-like-the-hotel-california dept.
Jhon writes "AOL customer Vincent Ferrari tried to cancel his account, but a phone rep wouldn't let him do it. What he got when he tried to cancel his account was a lot of frustration. Now that's customer support!"
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For his trouble (Score:5, Funny)
No different than Dell/McAfee (Score:5, Interesting)
You can't - it conveniently gives you an error message. I've confirmed this on a variety of Dell PCs.
This isn't an accident. Sure, you can reboot in safe mode and uninstall it but they know that the average user isn't a geek (trust me, it takes an average user weeks/months to follow simple step-by-step instructions to uninstall Dell's McAfee and install Avast). So they prey on them.
It is about time that someone sued the pants off of them. Where are the ambulance chasers of the tech world?
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Re:No different than Dell/McAfee (Score:5, Informative)
Much like most of the time when you try to uninstall Norton to reisntall/upgrade it the next install fails because it doesn't uninstall properly. It's strictly because of bad programing. And why are you having them install Avast? I thought the point of antivirus software was to prevent viruses. Avast let 3 Viruses on a system in 1.5 hours, and meanwhile thought that windows was a virus.
Anyway, more homework before ranting next time please.
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Re:No different than Dell/McAfee (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:No different than Dell/McAfee (Score:5, Informative)
They are also known as 800-lb gorillas in the antispam market.
Some might think otherwise, but their presence in the anti world & proper actions indicate otherwise.
The big question I was curious about as I read through the transcript is: was it Charlie, Delores, Mike, or Chris, all with a very strong accent, but when you ask them where they are, "In America, just like you!"
I don't speak Hindi or Urdu, but I know such an accent when I hear one.
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Re:No different than Dell/McAfee (Score:5, Informative)
What exactly do you do on the internet? I don't even have an antivirus or a firewall installed on my XP box, and I have never had issues with a single virus or worm. The closest I came was maybe a piece of spyware or two bundled with something. How do you manage to pick up three viruses in 1.5 hours?
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Why would you not reformat the drive? (Score:5, Insightful)
a) This usually saves lots of space and you can partition the way you like.
b) You know what you have, and only load what you want.
c) You can then image the minimal "clean" install for later recovery, cleanup, etc.
This method works wonders - my last el-cheapo HP Pavilion laptop went from 63 second boot time to under 30 seconds when it wasn't burdened with stuff I didn't want/need.
Just make sure you have any special drivers you'll need "on hand" before you do this.
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Re:Why would you not reformat the drive? (Score:5, Interesting)
Not having to go to a shitty website to download 30 drivers (clicking "I agree" to a 26 page license agreement for each file) saves me tons of time (especially for laptops, dear god, the freaking scroll wheel needs a driver?). Just keep on pointing windows to one of those 2 folders and you'll have a fully working system in far less time than running the installs, etc.
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Re:Why would you not reformat the drive? (Score:5, Interesting)
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Post megapack (Score:5, Informative)
Link to mp3 recording [63.209.191.205]. Putfile's proper site for this [putfile.com] requires a proprietary download just to run the file, so have this link instead. They'll probably move it though to make us look at their annoying page.
Here's link to Vincent's blog [insignific...oughts.com]. He's been dugg and farked and all the other usuals by now (which is why the file is now on putfile), so be gentle with the poor bastard's bandwidth. He's just come out of a very rough breakup, after all!
Also, this isn't a new tactic at all. That spin isn't in the linked article or anywhere else, so I guess 'Jhon' is to blame.
Opinions on this practice aren't as one-way as you might expect [consumerist.com]. It's kind of surprising to see a site called 'consumerist.com' reply to
withPricks.Re:Post megapack (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Post megapack (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Post megapack (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Post megapack (Score:5, Informative)
The CEO doesn't care, cause he's got enough money that he doesn't have to, so he sets policy to be, hey, screw you, no refunds.
The vp says, ok, I wanna keep making enough that eventually I won't care, so I need to enforce the policy.
The manager says, ok, well, I need this job, cause I'm not a vp or a ceo, so I need to keep the policy ball rolling.
The employee says, I'm a wage slave who works hand to mouth, paycheck to paycheck, so I'll follow the policy.
The ball rolls the other way when the customer says,
"I'll charge it back." The employee says, well, that's 50$ per chargeback and how much ever for the service we'll lose, so I need to take this to the manager to get it approved. The manager approves it, cause losing that other money is much worse than losing a customer. The vp justifies this to the ceo based on bottom line, and the whole thing works out. Is it good customer service? no. Does it work in the end if you know to tell them you're going to do that? yep. Drop that bomb right off the bat and you'll be suprised how many places apologize and refund you up front.
Note to those who actually get to read this: Most credit card companies only chargeback up to 90 days! If you're getting screwed by a company like, say, aol, make sure to call them and tell them you're going to chargeback within 40 days of the bad charge, cause it sucks to get screwed out of that money.
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Re:Post megapack (Score:5, Insightful)
A valid CSR retention attempt might go something like this:
Customer: I want to cancel my account
CSR: OK, can I ask why>
Customer: Because I never use it anymore
CSR: Oh, do you have DSL or Cable?
Customer: No, my phone charges are too high
CSR:: Ok, well before I cancel it, would you allow me to try to find you a better dial-up access number to try, which should reduce or eliminate your local phone charges?
...
Then from here, either the customer says "No, I've had it" and the CSR complies, or maybe the customer says "You can do that? Sure..."
Not every CSR conversation has to go like this:
Customer: I want to cancel
CSR: Done. Thanks. bye.
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Re:Post megapack (Score:5, Insightful)
Customer: I want to cancel my account
CSR: OK, can I ask why
Customer: No, I just want to cancel my account. I know what I'm doing, and I'm certain I don't want it.
CSR: No problem, it's done. Thanks. Bye.
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They've been doing this forever (Score:5, Interesting)
My advice - don't use AOL. If for any reason you *must* use AOL, use a one-time credit card solely for that purpose. When you're ready to cancel, send them a registered letter telling them you are hereby cancelling your account, and cancel the card. It may sound like a lot of trouble, but it's NOTHING compared to trying to the living hell of trying to get it cancelled by calling their cancellation department.
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Vincent was probably following procedure, but (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Vincent was probably following procedure, but (Score:5, Informative)
I got the same treatment a while back when I was cancelling an account from AOL -- not quite as bad, but close. The rep kept offering me free months in exchange for not cancelling. I didn't know how I got signed up for AOL in the first place, but that's a different story.
In any case, it seems more like an established business practice than a rogue representative. The AOL rep was pushy, but he was probably doing nothing different than he was trained to do, and had done before. Perhaps he should file a wrongful termination lawsuit, and see if AOL wants their training practices scrutinized on the record...
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Re:Vincent was probably following procedure, but (Score:5, Interesting)
Ditto, but when I tried to cancel (years ago), I talked them into giving me 6 months free, threw a reminder into my pda to call them in 5 months and 3 weeks and did the same thing over and over for just under 2 years. It was actually kind of crazy and was a running joke in the family for a while.
Free dialup access sometimes is nice, even in this day and age where pretty much every hotel has wifi.
The way I see it, this way everyone wins - the CSRs got their brownie points for retention and "Hey, umm... you do realize that I've had your service for free for 2 years" is a great way to kick the CSR into reality and letting you cancel without too much trouble.
Mooching free stuff off retention CSRs can be fun and profitable too. Hold times are usually the shortest out of all the branches too.
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Re:Vincent was probably following procedure, but (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Vincent was probably following procedure, but (Score:5, Insightful)
Vincent wasn't unreasonable at all. He answered John's first four or five questions. After that, he basically said "you're not going to convince me, so just cancel the account." At that point, the conversation is over.
Maybe John just isn't a good listener, or maybe it's corporate policy. I think it's a little of both; it seems obvious that AOL CS reps either get rewarded for customer retentions or punished for customer losses. So first you have a corporate policy that encourages annoying behavior on the part of CS reps, and then you have this particular CS rep who just does. not. listen.
I mean by about the third minute of the call, he's just going over and over the same ground. His entire routine seemed to be that Vincent uses the account more than he thinks he does. This is his sales tactic - "sir, would you believe it if I told you that you used this account for THREE DAYS STRAIGHT last week? Do you STILL want to cancel??"
But after the first time Vincent said "I don't care, cancel the account", that's it. You can't just keep saying "no, but seriously, do you have ANY IDEA how much you use this account?? No, really!" Because then not only are you being a stubborn ass, you're on the borderline of doing something illegal, which is charging somebody for an unwanted and unsolicited service.
It sounds to me like you're dangerously close to saying companies have a right to harrass you into backing out of a cancellation. They certainly have a right to OFFER customers something not to cancel, but they don't have a right to either guilt you into not cancelling or to otherwise harangue you about it. It's the customer's money, and it's the customer's credit card. In the absence of a contractual agreement, they have the right and expectation to be able to call and cancel at any time without getting any guff about it.
As far as I'm concerned, only one "cancel the account" should have been sufficient to get the job done.
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Re:Vincent was probably following procedure, but (Score:5, Informative)
Actually AOL does assume it has the right to harrass you and its highly encouraged. I worked there.
You can not have more than 3 or 4 cancellations an hour and you must take a ton of calls with low handle time. In order to keep your job you must try to stop them at all costs! I am not saying this is ethical but I would have been rude too and nervous and thinking about my stats.
Its the job of the staff to protect AOL from the customers. Its backwards over there and I do wish someone would sue to change this. Many phone companies saw this and loved the idea and do the same thing with people trying to cancel. This is probably going to be the new thing.
But yes if you need to be rude back then so be it as long as the numbers are met for hte bean counters then things are good. The jerks there always had the best stats and the lowest handle time on the phones and the least amount of cancellations an hour.
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Re:Vincent was probably following procedure, but (Score:5, Funny)
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stop paying? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:stop paying? (Score:5, Informative)
I've heard from someone in the business who should know, that the collection agency for AOL does not report to CRA's, because the CRA's got so many complaints and disputes about AOL that they no longer list "delinquent" AOL accounts on consumer credit reports.
Seems the customer gets the benefit of the doubt these days when AOL is involved, and no harm is done to the all important "credit report".
Of course, don't take what I am saying as gospel. Periodically check your reports (if you care about such things) after doing this, and go through the appropriate dispute mechanism. It is second hand information from a generally reliable source, but it appears that AOL collections don't have any teeth whatsover. Mostly just a bunch of threatening letters trying to squeeze a few dollars out of the guillable.
All the law requires is that you make a "good faith" effort to cancel your account.
If you make said effort, then cancel the billed account, you are covered legally. And the shots of AOL suing over the "debt" are pretty slim.
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standard procedure (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:standard procedure (Score:5, Funny)
Fuck, I'm in the wrong business.
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nothing new here, it's been happening forever (Score:5, Informative)
and they're all true.
It took me 10 minutes to get them to finally realize that with DSL, five years ago, I didn't want them any more. and I was lucky to be immediately dropped, perhaps because I used Quantum Online back in the v1.1 era.
IMO (Score:5, Funny)
Personally what I would like to do is take these commercials for instance the guy running the track....Yeah let AOL make you high speed with everyone else, but lets make this more realistic....Lets put this oversize hurdles in the guys way and call it SPAM or Spyware.
Or the kid doing the swim race, I would love to see him go at it then this huge shark come up out of the water and take him out in one gulp...I'd lable him Virus.
This is just a more realistic AOL.
not a new tactic (Score:5, Informative)
Hell I used to be an employee and when I cancelled my service (Comcast is horribly overpriced compared to DSL+Dish, and yes kids DSL is better than Cable at least when VoIP is involved) It took 2 weeks to get it cancelled and the endless calls to offer me a "better deal" if I keep my service and upgrade to the uber digital HD PVR package, etc..
I finally had to go to a local office stand in line and refuse to leave until they gave me a final bill and a written service cancellation recipt.
The phone people get a kickback spiff for every customer they keep from leaving and will do anything to get that kickback.
AOL simply is using the same tactic.
Easy solution (Score:5, Insightful)
Call your credit card company.
Tell the credit card company to no longer accept charges from AOL because they refuse to cancel your account.
If you really want to play it safe then write a letter to your credit card company after the call that reiterates the request and the reason for it.
Re:Easy solution (Score:5, Informative)
1. Call the credit card company. Tell them you are cancelling AOL and will no longer accept any charges from them. The credit card companies are all too familiar with AOL's billing practices and will thank you for calling ahead.
2. Call AOL and tell them you'd like to cancel your account. DO NOT ANSWER ANY OF THEIR QUESTIONS, just keep saying "I am cancelling my account. The credit card company has already been informed of this and will not accept any more charges from you. May I have the confirmation number please?"
3. Repeat #2 until AOL rep. gives in and gives you a confirmation number.
4. Verify that the confirmation number is, indeed, for cancelling your account.
5. Call the credit card company back with the confirmation number.
It was a serious pain in the ass and took from 45 minutes to an hour, but it worked.
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Re:Easy solution (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Easy solution (Score:5, Interesting)
His bank couldn't refuse the transaction because it wasn't billed from AOL.com but as a point-of-sale transaction. In other words, instead of being a recurring monthly charge from a known entity, it was just like the poor guy had walked up and handed AOL his credit card once a month.
Which somehow meant that it was a different category of transaction that could not be blocked by the bank in question.
Even more humorous, the guy's son (now a 24 year old off playing GI Joe in Iraq) had set him up with the account around four years previous. He's been a DSL subscriber essentially the whole time, didn't even know he had AOL service. And AOL told him that his son would have to cancel the account. The one on the old man's credit card. In his name, not his son's.
After more than 40 minutes of arguing and another 20 talking to his bank, I think he's cancelling the card AOL was billing. I can't wait to hear that AOL forced the account back open, 'cause I'm sure that's what will happen next.
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Re:Easy solution (Score:5, Insightful)
Uh huh, right. Four words:
"My card was lost."
Let's see AOL or anyone else continue to charge it once the old number is invalidated.
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This is by far the easiest way (Score:5, Informative)
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Unacceptable (Score:5, Interesting)
This is the same way big companies get their retail outlet managers to stiff workers out of overtime/benefits. By giving them unreasonable goals and incentives that are only achived by doing things that a corporation doesn't want to own up to doing themselves. So, they pass they buck, the blame, but not the profit.
I would urge this employee to take action. I for one am witness to AOL doing this very thing. Remember, those calls are monitored. They can't pretend not to condone this activity. I am sure that there are ex AOL employees that were rewarded for doing the same thing.
Another test (Score:5, Funny)
John Doe - "Hello I'm Mr. Green i want to cancel my account.
Customer Service Rep - "Done. Good bye Mr. Green"
Fax 'em (Score:5, Informative)
I had to join AOL twice over the last 3 years to get my free iPod and mac Mini. A few days before the 30 day trial ended I faxed over my cancellation request with my SN, pw, last 4 digits of CC, name, address and in big writing "PLEASE CANCEL THIS ACCOUNT!".. It was cancelled within a day, no questions asked.
Sounds like the account was hijacked... (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is I am sure this has been standard operating procedure at AOL every single day for the last decade. Everyone that has experienced this level of customer "service" needs to complain to the FTC and hopefully they will investigate. If memory serves, wasn't AOL already investigated for this by the FTC in years past?
I used to work at one of the AOL call centers (Score:5, Informative)
Or as they like to put it "Your keybadge wont work" as a polite way of saying your fired.
Its a very bad place to work and the bean counters call teh shots and make senior decisions on how its run everytime. I am surely not surprised it lost 30 million customers. They are very short sighted indeed and dont give a crap about anyone including their own customers. Just how they look to senior management at AOL corporate.
Also the call center I worked did some borderline illegal practices and they always change the name of the subsidaries they do some call center work because they keep getting sued for firing people for unjust causes. But I consider this outright fraud.
So if you know anyone who uses AOL and wants to quit, here is how to do it? Call the credit company and tell them not to pay AOL anymore. Problem solved and you get to save someone's job.
You're all laughing now. . . (Score:5, Funny)
He obviously needed someone to step in and grab him by the collar and say, "Vincent! This is a bad move, man! AOL is here for you! Don't you get it??"
But Vincent wouldn't listen and now look at him.
Not only is he AOL-less, but now he's been
AOL Refuses to Cancel Service for Deceased Woman (Score:5, Interesting)
Attorney General Already Fined AOL For This (Score:5, Informative)
AOL TO REFORM CUSTOMER SERVICE PROCEDURES
Settlement Requires Company to Remove Obstacles
Consumers Face When Seeking to Switch or Cancel Service
Attorney General Eliot Spitzer today announced an agreement that requires the nation's leading internet service provider to reform its customer service procedures.
Under the agreement, America Online (AOL) will alter the incentives it offers to customer representatives who seek to persuade subscribers not to cancel their service.
"This agreement helps ensure that AOL will strive to keep its customers through quality service, not stealth retention programs," Spitzer said.
In response to approximately 300 consumer complaints, Spitzer's office began an inquiry of AOL's customer service policies. The investigation revealed that the company had an elaborate system for rewarding employees who purported to retain or "save" subscribers who had called to cancel their internet service. In many instances, such retention was done against subscribers' wishes, or without their consent.
Under the system, consumer service personnel received bonuses worth tens of thousands of dollars if they could successfully dissuade or "save" half of the people who called to cancel service. For several years, AOL had instituted minimum retention or "save" percentages, which consumer representatives were expected to meet. These bonuses, and the minimum "save" rates accompanying them, had the effect of employees not honoring cancellations, or otherwise making cancellation unduly difficult for consumers.
Many consumers complained that AOL personnel ignored their demands to cancel service and stop billing.
The agreement requires AOL to:
Eliminate any requirements that its customer service representatives maintain a minimum number of "saves" in order to earn a bonus;
Record all service cancellation requests and verify action on the request through a third-party monitor;
Provide refunds to all New York consumers who claim harm based on improper cancellation procedures, up to four months worth of service;
Pay $1.25 million to the state in penalties and costs.
(New York State Attorney Generals Office) http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2005/aug/aug24a_
You youngun's have it tough... (Score:5, Funny)
Maybe the easiest method would be to simply be annoying online?
Re:You youngun's have it tough... (Score:5, Funny)
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That isn't all they do. (Score:5, Informative)
At college there are some serious limitations on p2p. I have managed to work around these since then (just gotta be careful not to generate any noticable traffic, and to encrypt everything) but before then I seriously considered using a free AOL trial. NetZero's free 10 hours per month just wasn't cutting it.
So, I go to the sign up page. I fill out some of the stuff (it's a multi page form so I'm submitting as I go) but then I see they need a CC number. I'm not about to give them that (what if I forget to cancel? etc, not to mention my parents handle my accounting and they would want to know why I signed up for AOL when I had internet at college). So I cancel out of the form.
THEY SAVED THE ENTERED INFORMATION EVEN THOUGH I CANCELLED THE SIGN UP. I wasn't even aware of this until a few days later when a rep called me and tried to get me to reconsider and sign up anyways. Luckily it was a one time call and I made it clear I was no longer interested.
Instructions are pretty clear here: (Score:5, Informative)
We value your membership with the AOL® community. However, we are really sorry that you're considering canceling your AOL® account. It's our mission to build a service that lives up to the high standards of the online community. We hope you've enjoyed being an AOL member and that we can help you again in the future. For security reasons, AOL accounts cannot be cancelled either online or through e-mail. You can get your AOL account cancelled either through phone, US mail or fax.
To Cancel Your AOL® Membership Over the Phone
To cancel your AOL account over the phone, all you need to do is call up AOL® Member Services at 1-888-265-8008. You can speak to our representatives to get your account cancelled. This service is available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
To Cancel Your AOL Membership Though U.S. Mail
You can request the cancellation of your AOL account through the U.S. mail. Just send your request to:
AOL
PO BOX 17100
Jacksonville, FL 32245-7100
To Cancel Your AOL Membership Though Fax
If you prefer sending in your request through fax, please send it to us at 1-703-433-7283.
Notes:
* If you choose to write or fax us, please include a brief note stating the nature of your request, the primary billing contact's full name, phone number, address and handwritten signature.
* In addition to that, for account security purpose please provide any one of the following:
o The master screen name of the AOL account
o The last four digits of the current method of payment (for your security, please include only the last four digits)
o The answer to the account security question of the master screen name.
* Cancellation will take effect within 72 hours of receipt of your request and AOL will send you a written confirmation. Please note that AOL LLC reserves the right to charge and collect fees, surcharges or costs incurred before your cancellation takes effect. Thank you for using AOL
Here's a handy state by state guide (Score:5, Informative)
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