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Japanese Mileage Maniacs
Posted by
Zonk
on Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:10 AM
from the where-did-they-get-those-wonderful-toys dept.
from the where-did-they-get-those-wonderful-toys dept.
WY writes "Bloomberg reports on the quirky world of Japanese hybrid car hackers: 'Toyota Motor Corp. says its Prius gasoline-electric hybrid car gets about 55 miles to the gallon, making it one of the most fuel-efficient cars on the road. That's not good enough for Takashi Toya.' He managed to reach as high as 115 MPG. He is one of about 100 nenpimania, Japanese for mileage maniacs."
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Mileage? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Mileage? (Score:5, Interesting)
Well if you want to get that technical, yes we use kilometers here. But even in English speaking countries, mileage is commonly used because "kilometrage" would just sound silly. Mileage or simply "fuel efficiency" is acceptable.
But just for the pedantic, the japanese characters for "nenpi" (I'd type them here but Slashdot doesn't seem to accept Japanese characters) are literally translated as the character for "burn" (On reading of 'nen') and the character for "cost" or "consumption" (On reading of 'hi' or in this case, 'pi'). Mileage is just the (American) English equivalent. Fuel consumption would probably be more widely accepted.
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Re:Mileage? (Score:4, Interesting)
Well of course it does. Kilometers and liters are used here in Japan, hence it would be measured in kilometers per liter. Or sometimes liters per 100km (xL/100km). But the characters used for nenpi do not have reference to kilometers or miles.
Take for example the phrase "Top speed". The phrase doesn't refer to kph or mph or meters per second or anything, but depending on its context, you can judge which is appropriate. If you're in the US, it'd be more appropriate to use mph, if you're in Japan, it'd be more appropriate to use kph. If you're talking about a satellite in orbit, maybe meters per second might be more appropriate.
The phrase "nenpi" is almost only purely used in reference to fuel consumption of cars. However I have seen it used in reference to physical fitness, so I think any jisho (dictionary) saying nenpi is purely measured in kilometers per liter is being too narrow in its definition.
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Good enough for me (Score:5, Funny)
Cutting down on fuel bills AND bragging rights? Where do I sign!?
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Re:Good enough for me (Score:5, Funny)
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How "real" is their driving? (Score:4, Insightful)
Sure, I'm all for more fuel efficient cars and less fossil fuel burning, but there is a tradeoff.
Re:How "real" is their driving? (Score:5, Informative)
Bert
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Re:How "real" is their driving? (Score:4, Interesting)
Unfortunately at least in this country (UK) you are likely to cause a case of road rage. All driving schools teach a completely different driving style. Namely, you are taught to go close to the roundabout without deccelerating and switch 4-to-2nd or 5-to-3rd for the big ones to kill your speed right away with the engine while helping yourself with the breaks. Same for traffic lights, stopping, etc. Even if it is absolutely clear that a traffic light will go green any minute, the average british driver will go all the way to it, break, stop and wait. As a result if you deccelerate early the one bihind you may end up smashing into you or uses breaks to deccelerate early and gets pissed off.
Most of the population drives like that. I used to drive the way you describe (and I still do if I am more or less alone on the road) and I had idiots behind me flashing lights at me all the time.
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Check out this pic [coloradoguy.com] -- the road's obvious in the left-hand side, but you can also see a fragment in the right, and another in the upper right. Tho
Re:How "real" is their driving? (Score:5, Informative)
Absolutely, and that's still important in vehicles with regenerative braking.
The Prius has a bar graph of your MPG per five minute interval. It overlays cute little green car icons to show how much energy you recaptured through braking during that interval as well. But you shouldn't think of those car icons as part of your score. They're more like the bonus you get when the ball drains out of the pinball machine.
Consider this: when you step on the brakes in a Prius, you convert kinetic energy to electrical energy, which is then stored in a battery, which you then use to regain kinetic energy.
But oddly enough, the most efficient way to store kinetic energy is as....kinetic energy. Regenerative braking is a consolation prize for when you had to step on the brakes. Better not to do that in the first place, if you can manage it while being safe and courteous.
Parent
Re:How "real" is their driving? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Heck, all the land speed records are set in America for a reason, completely flat and no resistance.
terrorism ? (Score:2)
Re:Pulse and Glide Says it All, Average Speed 26 M (Score:2, Insightful)
If you think US roads are poorly designed, please come to Japan and spend some time driving. These people in the article must spend all their time on farm roads during off hours. Japanese roads are by for the worst anywhere for cars. (and I have driven on four continents.) Nothing but stoplights, traffic and people. The stoplights are never synchronized and going anywhere in Japan by car painful by US standards. Why do you think they developed the hybrids in the fi
well.. that xprize went fast! (Score:5, Interesting)
damn he's lucky.. if he knows about it and turns it in that is.
driving technique (Score:2)
I also wonder whether the driving techniques they use are applicable in traffic of any density. It sounds like they speed up and slow down a lot, which may be fine on the open road but not as traffic becomes denser. A minor point is that in most of the United States, at least, it is illegal to drive barefoot.
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Similarly, if they have to pay close attention to extra gauges, they probably can't drive safely in heavy traffic or bad road conditions. Maybe what they are doing can be automated, but if not, it may not be practical for general driving conditions.
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What? Serious?
So, what counts as "not barefoot"? Does it have to be shoes or is socks sufficient? What material is allowed for the socks - could you just use nylon hose to count as "not barefoot" or does the foot cover have to be opaque? Who defines what counts as "shoes"? or "soles"? How much of the foot does the "shoe" have to cover? If you're driving an automatic, do you still need shoes on both feet? Where do y
Re:driving technique (Score:4, Informative)
This is what I have always been told, but I just googled it to check, and it looks like [tafkac.org] it is an urban myth in terms of black-letter law. The police often consider it dangerous and may ticket you for reckless or negligent driving, which you could then dispute in court. In some states it IS illegal to ride a motorcycle barefoot. Driving barefoot is illegal in some other places, such as Hong Kong.
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It certainly is retarded -- but then you always see kids riding their crotch-rockets every summer with shorts, flipflops, and a flapping tank top. Go out someday and rub the pavement with your bare hand. Then imagine sliding along at 50 mph with nothing separating limb from road. Dumb as it is however, people should be allowed to foolishly take themselves out of the gene pool.
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That's only true if you wear shoes that are easy to slip on and off, which is fine if you're out for a long drive, but not very practical in circumstances where you need to wear other shoes or boots for work or whatever.
Called Hypermiling in America (Score:5, Informative)
Why only 55? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why only 55? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Why only 55? (Score:4, Interesting)
I really wish around here in BC they would change the licence/insurance laws. I used to drive a truck (until the head gasket went and leaked all the coolant into the oil pan) and I now drive a tercel. However, I would like to insure both under a single licence. Why? Because there are times when I could use a truck, and I used to use my truck to fill a need about 1 time every week. The rest of the time I could have got by with a much more fuel efficent car. However, licencing 2 vehicles offsets the value in having more than one. If I could have swapped plates from truck to car, I could have driven the truck 1 day a week, and the car the other 6. But this is not legal here. Hell, if I could do that I would rather have a truck and a smart fortwo car. Because on my own the fortwo would work great, and for those times where I need more space, I can drive the truck.
Changing insurance methods could save gas in situations like these.
Parent
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In my case for example I drive a 911, which is neither remotely fuel efficient nor inexpensive to maintain -- but it has a lot of the same disadvantages as a smart car so bear with me. It's lousy for transporting even moderately sized items, you can't haul a boat, or fill it with relatives, or bricks, etc... While I knew I'd love the car I thought I'd *really* miss having a larger vehicle. Turned out its not the big deal I thought it was.
Sure I *could* own a 2nd vehicle, but it tu
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I really wish around here in BC they would change the licence/insurance laws. I used to drive a truck (until the head gasket went and leaked all the coolant into the oil pan) and I now drive a tercel. However, I would like to insure both under a single licence. Why? Because there are times when I could use a truck, and I used to use my truck to fill a need about 1 time every week. The rest of the time I could have got by with a much more fuel efficent car.
I don't know where you live, but if you are in Vancouver, you might want to try the Co-operative Auto Network [cooperativeauto.net]. It's a co-op where you pay a one-time $500 membership fee, and per hour fees (as low as $2/hr) to sign out various vehicles for short periods of time.
It's ideal for folks like you where you have a primary vehicle, but occasionally need a secondary. The co-op fleet has trucks and vans. My wife signed up, and it's better than purchasing (and insuring) a second car. Plus, she gets to satisf
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Re:Why only 55? (Score:5, Funny)
You must be new here. Our Hummers weigh in at much more than a measly two tons. Besides, American women with 1 or more children are forbidden to be seen in anything with four doors unless it's an SUV. (It's federal law; kind of like that big cloth bag they have to wear in the mideast). American males with premature balding, premature greying, limpdickosis and/or shortpeckeritis are also required to own at least one SUV and a Harley Davidson. The SUV must have at least 8 cylinders and you get a tax subsidy from Exxon if you upgrade to Hemi-anything. On weekends, most people take their Hummers out and rear-end anything that gets more than 25 mpg.
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aerodynamics and rolling friction, not engine tech (Score:5, Interesting)
If a regular engine can get 50+ MPG it shouldn't be hard for a Hybrid to get 70 or 80+, if not 100+.
Highway mileage has nothing to do with hybrid vs. non-hybrid. You're still getting energy from the same fuel, in the same way. Even with a hybrid's electric motor helping with acceleration for passing, guess where energy to charge the battery back up again comes from? Ding, the gasoline motor (some regenerative braking, but most of the hybrids don't wait that long before they start charging the pack.)
Take a look at the Insight. It gets noticeably more mileage than any of its hybrid siblings- I think it's in the high 60's or low 70's. Why? It's super-streamlined, complete with wheel skirts over the rear wheels. Now, notice that the shape is quite reminiscent of the Honda CRX, a car that got 50MPG, in the early 80's?
If you completely switched off the hybrid system in a Prius or Honda Civic or (snicker) that hybrid Lexus SUV, guess what- highway gas mileage wouldn't change. The overwhelming factors for highway mileage are aerodynamics and rolling friction (tires, bearings, drivetrain components.) Lowering weight helps too; less energy required to accelerate and go up hills- and hybrids have that working against them because the battery packs, extra electronics+wiring, and traction motor all add weight.
Diesels like the VW TDIs get 45-50MPG on the highway, and they do it with the same aerodynamics as standard VW's AND the extra weight of the heavier diesel engine, because diesels are more efficient. Put a diesel engine in a Insight, and you'd probably get a similar boost in mileage as between an gasoline Jetta and a TDI Jetta. Heck, you might crack 100mpg without breaking a sweat.
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Do note that this is entirely impossible. The Prius transmission is the hybrid system. It neither resembles nor behaves like a conventional transmission - it is far more mechanically simple and has far more electronic control.
Note that the Prius hybrid system also replaces the starter and the alternator as well, and (from the 2004 model onwards) also runs the air conditioning.
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But a lot of people want a heaver car for real or perceived safety reasons, good acceleration, and a price-tag they can brag about. Hybrids deliver on all counts.
Essentially, they electric part isn't good enough to run the car, but it is good enough to provide a performance boost to an otherwise underpowered engine. In some cases, that
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Models with traditional engines from Toyota include the Aygo - 68.9 mpg and the Yaris - 62.8 mpg, so other than the fact that some road tolls and parking permit charges are cheaper on the Prius, there isn't really much point in getting it.
These figures are in British gallons. There's about 1.2 US Gallons in a British Gallon, so the 65.7 mpg is comparable to your 55 mpg.
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Re:Why only 55? (Score:5, Informative)
It's also a two-door compact car. The Prius is considerably larger - perhaps you should be comparing the VW Polo to the Honda Insight, which gets 65-70mpg.
Your Citroën AX is a 650kg 2-door supermini that would be a deathtrap in a collision with anything of any size. Why the hell you would compare it to a 1400kg Prius (which is a 4-door "large family car") is completely beyond me.
You said two things there - 50bhp and diesel. Diesel contains 15% more energy per gallon than gasoline, making any "MPG" comparisons entirely pointless from a carbon-emission standpoint.
Moreover, you also said 50bhp. That's redicolously underpowerd, even for your 650kg Citroën. Forget about having an automatic transmission on a vehicle like that, and you'd better be easy on the clutch or you're going to be in stall city.
Ah, more hybrid misnomers. If you don't understand the battery technologies involved (Ni-Mh in current models), don't comment. Ni-Mh is not "environmentally-disasterous" - in fact, the Ni in the battery is so valuable that Toyota pays a $500 per pack bounty for recycling.
As for the "overcomplicated drive train", the Prius transmission has 12 moving parts, not one of which is a friction or wear component. In the past 5 years, I have never read a single account of a Prius transmission failing mechanically. The same cannot be said for manual or automatic transmissions, which fail all the time because they incorporate wear components (clutches/clutchpacks, syncromeshes, etc) and (in the case of an automatic transmission), high-pressure hydraulics.
This is the typical European Slashdot hybrid idiot post. I've seen it far, far too many times. The post points out how a much smaller, much less powerful diesel-powered vehicle can achieive results similar to a hybrid. Then they top it off with some nice myths about how hybrids are complicated (they aren't - Toyota's Prius is in fact mechanically simpler and far more reliable than a conventional vehicle), bad for the environment (somehow, 80% fewer smog-forming emissions and excellent fuel economy are "bad" because you have to recycle a battery 15 years down the road), or dangerous.
Here's a hint: don't compare a 3000lb 4-door large family vehicle (mid-size in the US) to a 2-door diesel subcompact. It makes you look stupid.
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The drivetrain in the Prius is quite simple. See http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/890029-W I fqPO/890029.PDF [osti.gov]. The "transmission" has only 6 gears in it (not speeds, gears), no mechanical torque converter. A diagram of it is on page 18 of the PDF file. The other gears are for connecting to the differential. Electronically it is complex, but not mechanically. The engine is a conventional 1.5L 4 cylinder engine, but run with the Atkinson cycle [wikipedia.org] instead of the usual Otto cycle.
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I can't actually drive a Prius. I'm 6'0" and 14 stone (a little below 200lb), and physically don't fit in the driver's seat. It doesn't go back far enough for my legs, so my knees hit the steering wheel. My right shoulder is bumping against the door pillar and my left shoulder is invading my passenger's space. It's just too damn small - more cramped inside than my AX (which is "cosy" to say the least with
Mileage mania? (Score:3, Insightful)
My favorite motorcar extremists lately are the guys strapping together thousands of dollars worth of batteries to make ultra-high performance vehicles that still get 40 mpg. Sure, they have to go light and limited to 100 miles range per charge, but they end up with a true racecar that makes no sound except the burning of the wheels. That's just damn cool.
Mileage itself is a bit of a red herring though - there's always going to be a need for vehicles with 'horrid' milage, and 'wasting' that fuel to move earth, or just push a lot of metal - it really isn't an inherent problem to 'waste' fuel on big cars. The only real concern is the effect using that fuel in a fuel cycle. If going through that cycle returns the earth to a carbon-rich atmosphere, that's not a good thing. If the cycle doesn't involve such troublesome consequences though, then as long as the fuel is worth it's other negative effects (like on your wallet), then I don't see how it's a problem.
We just need better fuels and energy source paths. The market's having a hard time finding a good set of somethings for now - but the dynamics look to be changing, thanks in large part to a lot of nations making some rather interesting long-term investments in fuel research. If you get the right fuel, then I'd much rather have a fuel-inneficient car that theoretically retails for $12,000 after mass manufacture, than a maximized fuel efficient car that retails for $50,000. We need fuels we can waste, so we can consider fuel efficiency completely in terms of direct cost rather than indirect environmental impact as a society.
I look forward to being able to waste a lot of new kinds of fuel in the future. Here's hoping they come up with one that smells like rich coffee ice cream!
Ryan Fenton
The real question is... (Score:2)
Speaking of Prius: All-Electric Versions... (Score:2)
Anybody know how likely this is to be true? (Is there such a version in any other market?)
Re:Speaking of Prius: All-Electric Versions... (Score:5, Informative)
Toyota have announced they want to build a PHEV, but they haven't said when or shown any more information about it. General Motors have shown the Chevy Volt "concept car" which is a PHEV, and they want to put it into production by about 2010-2012 depending on how batteries develop.
The winners in fuel efficiency are always the pure battery-electric vehicles like the Tesla Roadster; it's rated 135 MPG equivalent efficiency on the EPA highway cycle, no funky "hypermiling" techniques required. First deliveries to customers scheduled for late this year.
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Re:Ob. (Score:5, Funny)
I guess you were trying to make a Soviet Russia joke? "In Japan, car drives you", maybe? I guess it loses its funny when it's not relevant to the article, is translated into another language and written in romaji.
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I hate to see comments like this. If you have an electric car, there is no gas, and hence, no "gas mileage". This type of comment permeates the media and contributes to the drivel that totally mushes up the real facts of what goes on in engineering and science.
By 2010-2012, I predict the newer faster charging and less expensive batteries being tested now will give us an
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I was going to write that the grid can't handle any significant fraction of the population doing that, but actually, it can. Assume that a typical commuter does 20 miles/day in an electric car that otherwise (in weight and aerodynamics) is comparable to a 60 mpg car. Energy-wise you gain a factor 2 since the charging/discharging
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Re:US fuel efficiency figures seem incredibly poor (Score:5, Informative)
And yes gasoline is so cheap for the most part that we can and do by bigger cars that do poor mpg. They sell gas at 25-30p a liter and 9p of that is road tax, so we don't have the extra payments like you do. At that price it just doesn't make much of a dent in the pocket book even when you have to commute more than 30 miles each direction everyday. The other thing we have is wide roads, lot's of parking, and big garages (you can actually get a full sized SUV into most and have the people on both sides of the vehicle and be able to get out fairly easy). The newer houses typically have room for 3 vehicles and easily fit 2 SUVs and a car. (Just to give you an idea of what I'm talking about, a Landrover Defender 110 station wagon is what I mean by an SUV.) Those things seems to have a bigger damper on large vehicle sales here in the UK than the price of gas. I cannot get my "tiny", a behemoth by British standards, regular cab Toyota Tacoma (like a hi-lux but bigger) through the door of my garage, and have to park it in the street. Of course as you know most houses in town don't even have garages. People in the states regularly drive pick-up trucks large enough to haul around the typical British car in the back and rarely ever have a problem finding an easy spot to park in.
Hope that puts things in perspective for you. Of course my dreams of buying a new Tacoma or an FJ cruiser, both larger than I have now, are on the back burner, so I have been eye-balling one of the new Mini's. (The sad thing is it won't fit in my garage either.) It get's a respectable 35-40 mpg better than the 20 I get with the Tacoma. Of course the one I want is the S model rather the eco model. :)
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