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Heavily Discounted Zune Outpacing iPod Sales
Posted by
Zonk
on Sat Dec 01, 2007 01:33 PM
from the christmas-miracle dept.
from the christmas-miracle dept.
firegate writes "Yahoo Tech is reporting that the Microsoft Zune, having been heavily discounted for the holiday season, 'is currently Amazon's top-selling music player, beating out the new iPod Nano and the 80GB iPod on the 'Bestsellers in Electronics' list.' An Associated Press report even indicates that the Zune's newfound popularity has left it in short supply, sold out in many locations. Is this a sign that a true competitor, from Microsoft no less, has finally broken into the Apple-dominated MP3 player market? And will this spell more success for Windows-media based music subscription services like Napster?"
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story is bull (Score:5, Informative)
Re:story is bull (Score:5, Informative)
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Operative Words are..... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Operative Words are..... (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Operative Words are..... (Score:4, Funny)
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Minute to minute... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Minute to minute... (Score:5, Funny)
List Price: $399.00
Price: $398.99
You Save: $0.01
Wow! Thanks Amazon!
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Will it still sell when the price goes back up? (Score:5, Insightful)
For the answer to this and many more questions, wait for December 26!
Suddenly, a blog is old media (Score:5, Informative)
As of MY press time, Zune 80 is #9. iPods occupy spots 1,2, and 4-8. #3 is a Sansa of some variety, #9 is a Zune, and #10 is another Sansa. 11-14 are different nano varieties, and all the way at #15 is a Zune spot.
Feel free to come up with your own crackpot theory as to why this is. My favorite is the Zune isn't popular unless it's dirt cheap.
Re:Suddenly, a blog is old media (Score:5, Insightful)
Okay, here's something interesting:
Now go back and look at that first list, and take note of the iPods in the top few places. Done that? Okay, your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to locate those same models on either of the other two lists.
No luck? Okay, just find *any* of the current generation of iPods (iPod Classic, iPod touch, iPod shuffle (clip version), iPod nano w/video) on the two narrowed lists. In fact, I don't see the new Zunes on those lists either, when it's apparently at #9 (at time of posting) on the general list. Nothing in the top 12 places on the general list appears in either of the other two.
So, it turns out there's a pretty simple explanation for this:
Amazon hasn't tagged the latest generations of iPods or Zunes as either HDD- or flash-based.
As a result, they just don't show in those sub-lists. And since the price-dropped 1st Gen. Zune is proving more popular than last-season's iPods, it appears above them on all lists of which they are a member, including the general list (it's at #15 right now-- the 30Gb Brown one). It just happens to place behind all the current models from both manufacturers.
-Q
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PROTIP: (Score:5, Funny)
Success for Windows-media Based Subscriptions? (Score:5, Insightful)
predatory pricing (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course, given that Apple itself dominates the MP3 player market so much, I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry...
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Woot had them for $79 the other day...
Oh, and I assure you that the retailers are making money off it... Or the Zune wouldn't even be on the shelf.
Competiton is good (Score:3, Interesting)
My key question is whether they're selling them for less than they cost to make. If so, then it's probably a dumping case waiting to happen.
In many ways I welcome the competition. Although Apple seem to have a halo on Slashdot, they are every bit as nasty as Microsoft in this department. Apple want to lock you in to the Fairplay every bit as much as Microsoft wants to lock you in to Windows Media DRM.
On a totally off topic point. Can you remove the flash ads Rob? They're fucking irritating and really cheapen the site. Even if I gave a shit about what they're peddling, you should know that many on Slashdot aren't going to click those things on principle. Get the marketing diarrhoea off the site please.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Although Apple seem to have a halo on Slashdot, they are every bit as nasty as Microsoft in this department. Apple want to lock you in to the Fairplay every bit as much as Microsoft wants to lock you in to Windows Media DRM.
ORLY? "Convincing [the big music companies] to license their music to Apple and others DRM-free will create a truly interoperable music marketplace. Apple will embrace this wholeheartedly." http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughtsonmusic/ [apple.com]
The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot (Score:5, Funny)
Grandmother: Okay, honey!
Later that day, grandmother has a sudden attack of sticker shock at the price of the iPod and asks if there's something "like it" for cheaper. The clerk, with a "someone's going to be disappointed this Christmas" smirk on his face, hands her a heavily discounted Zune. The grandmother, not knowing any better, purchases said Zune.
Come Christmas morning, the granddaughter rushes to the Christmas tree to find the box containing her brand new iPod. Upon ripping off the wrapping paper, she realizes... she got a Zune.
At this point, she has two choices: demand a return for an iPod (usually out the question, since insulting grandmother may cut off any future birthday cash) or she'll feign excitement (a skill nearly all women are born with) and start secretly plotting to kill her grandmother.
Moral of the story: if you're a grandparent and you don't want to die at the hands of your sweet, loving granddaughter... don't buy a Zune!
Re:The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:The Zune-for-Christmas Death Plot (Score:4, Insightful)
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Things change (Score:4, Informative)
Using "Rate of Growth" is a misleading statistic (Score:5, Informative)
For example: If I sell 1 widget last month, and then I sell 10 widgets this month I can make the claim that I have a 1000% month-over-month growth rate. Not only that, I have a "faster rate of growth" than every other major widget manufacturer/retailer.
Obviously, rate of growth is clearly only a meaningful statistic when presented alongside comparative volumes.
They're using the X Box sales model for the Zune (Score:4, Insightful)
This isn't the first time though, that Microsoft has gone with a one-size-fits-all strategy.
It won't be the last either.
No way! Get outta town! (Score:3, Insightful)
Old Saying (Score:5, Insightful)
It takes no particular talent to sell a dollar for fifty cents.
Black Friday. (Score:4, Funny)
Amazon Sales Rank == tea leaves (Score:5, Insightful)
For the entire month of July the PS3 was in the top three of the Video Game category at Amazon, seemingly outselling even the Wii most of the month. The Xbox 360 was barely in the top 20 for the month. When the smoke cleared the Wii outsold the PS3 by over 300% and the 360 beat it by 11k units.
Amazon Sales Rank is useless for comparing product sales.
Microsoft selling at a loss (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyways, it isn't a surprise that Microsoft is dumping billions into this product and suckers are picking it up. It's not like they don't have the cash to dump on this and we all know there are millions of suckers willing to pick up a Microsoft product because it's cheap.
The only thing of interest here is how many billions Microsoft is willing to lose to gain market share against Apple. They've crossed over the $10 billion mark to kill Palm about 4 years ago. But it's a laugh when the press talks about WinCE, PocketPC, Windows Moble, etc being a good product line for Microsoft. So if you're a MSFT investor, Zune will be a massive loser too. IMO.
LoB
Zune does not suck (Score:5, Interesting)
Zune is for real, and anyone who would be disappointed to get one would only be disappointed because it's not what Muffy has.
no one buys their iPods from Amazon (Score:4, Insightful)
Not all gift buyers know what the recipient wants (Score:4, Interesting)
Although holiday sales give you a sign of how much revenue a company is pulling in, this is the *least* representative time in terms of what product is actually *desired*. Who's doing the buying? Not the people using the stuff!
Come back in January, see how many Zunes are returned. Or hell, look at sales in the middle of March or some other random time. Either of those would be more accurate indicators of whether or not the Zune is really hurting the iPod market.
If You Give It Away... (Score:4, Insightful)
they will come.
Re:No (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm apparently confused. I was under the apparent misconception that both units played MP3s and neither required a music store to operate the device. Silly me -- all this time I thought you could use any MP3 on these devices. Don't know where I got that from.
Aside from your comment about the music store, from what I've seen of the Zune (I don't own either an iPod or a Zune) it works just fine for a media player. Yeah, the color schemes are lame and they certainly don't have the marketing team that Apple does for their units, but money talks.
As long as it plays music and fit in your pocket, cheap people (who happen to outnumber those interested in being hip) will flock to it. In addition, for you to claim that MSFT will somehow not be able to continue this mode of operation for a very long time, you're nuts.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:No (Score:5, Interesting)
That being said, with the amount of mark up on ipods, I would be surprised if the zune isn't still selling for a profit.
Personally I'm somewhat skeptical as to how long this is going to last, but even if it doesn't last for too long, it gives the zune more exposure and the ipod owners a sense that maybe ipods really are as over priced as people say.
The main point of this is to get zunes sold so that they can get a proper word of mouth campaign going. Contrary to popular belief the zunes aren't bad, while unpopular, the only person I know that owns one was quite happy with it last time I saw her. After talking to her I probably would have bought one, had I been in the market for a new mp3 player.
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Re:No (Score:5, Insightful)
At which point the Justice Department would swoop in and beg Microsoft for a spanking, I'm sure.
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Re:No (Score:4, Interesting)
However, Microsoft has already failed to use its market dominance to get PlaysForSure off the ground, and sure doesn't seem to be doing a bang up job with the Zune. If th company started dumping the Zune in other markets, you could be sure Sony and others would attack the company using local laws. That's unlikely, as Microsoft has no significant hardware sales outside the US.
Apple doesn't have much to fear in the US from the Zune, as Microsoft can't manage to even sell the Xbox at a profit in volumes around 5 million per year. Apple sells ten times that many iPods, and the number is only going up. Sure some of those iPods are $200, but around a third are $400, and the iPod will add another 10 million per year. Compare Microsoft's greatest hardware "success" to Apple's similarly priced iPod business, and it is clear Microsoft has no hardware position to leverage. The Windows monopoly isn't selling the Zune or the Xbox.
In media sales, Apple is at the top of music, TV, and movie sales--despite the fact that it hasn't even started offering rental movies or HD content. It's still #1 in each segment, with 60-90% of those markets. Microsoft doesn't place among the top four outfits that sell 97% of content downloads, even when combining its incompatible Zune and Xbox media sales.
Microsoft doesn't have any position to leverage. It can't make hardware that works, can't sell it at a profit, can't sell downloads, and still seems to think rental music will somehow take off after ten years of failure in the market. On top of that, it has lost its leadership position in desktop operating systems, lost its effort to monopolize server operating systems, and can't make money in any new markets, including search.
So on one hand, you're wrong about anti-competitive markets, but on the other hand, it doesn't matter because Microsoft is on the way to oblivion. Its 90s crown isn't going to be any good in a world where OEM PC licensing is increasingly not the primary way to make money and wield influence. That weird period of tech history is on the wane, and a new era of open competition will leave Microsoft's fiefdom as obsolete as Windows.
Ten Myths of Leopard: 10 Leopard is a Vista Knockoff! [roughlydrafted.com]
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Re:No (Score:5, Interesting)
1. Kindle. (ok, Amazon, I admit it. I'm impressed.)
2. Canon Powershot A57OIS
3. Apple 4 GB iPod nano silver
4. Garmin nüvi GPS navigator
5. Canon PowerShot A560
6. Apple 8 GB iPod nano black
and so on... iPod classic pops up again at #11, iPod Touch at #18 and 21... Zune comes in at #24. WTF? Likewise, if you head over to bestsellers in the "MP3 player" category, you'll see Apple in the #1,2,3, and the 5,6,7,8,10 spots. #4? SanDisk. #9? #9 is the much-vaunted, reduced-price Zune... What's up? I think that Microsoft is playing one of the oldest tricks in the book, using the "in it's class" qualifier. For instance, you are told that the 2008 Chevrolet Pendejo is the cheapest, best-performing, and bestselling SUV "in it's class." What the ad does not tell you is that the class they're talking about is narrowly defined as the class of SUVs which get 5 miles per gallon, which can't exceed 45mph when going uphill, and which tend to spontaneously combust when making left turns. Tack on enough qualifiers, and ANY piece of crap is the best in it's class. Microsoft has it's Zune classed as a "portable digital media player". Apparently, iPods aren't Portable Digital Media Players, they're MP3 players, and there's some sort of really important difference, so the Zune wins the top slot... in it's class. Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but from what I can tell, this is some sort of scam cooked up by the guys in Microsoft's marketing division. Wow... I mean, I feel I should be pissed at Microsoft, but it's just kind of, well... pathetic.
References:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/electronics/16009311/ref=pd_ts_pg_1?ie=UTF8&pg=1 [amazon.com] http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/electronics/ref=pd_ts_e_bcrm_electronics [amazon.com] http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/electronics/172630/ref=pd_ts_e_bcrm_172630 [amazon.com]
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Excellent research! (Score:5, Informative)
You'll get banned from Slashdot for doing things like that, you know. This site is for prejudice and uninformed drivel only; Uncovering the real scam is bad form.
It amused me particularly because I asked someone only today why JVC sell over 200 different current models of camcorders in the UK, and was told that it was because of the scam shops do which says 'if you can find one of these cheaper anywhere else we'll refund the difference...' - apparently each major reseller gets one model which only they sell, even though it's practically identical to all the other models which are exclusive to each of the other major retailers. This scam of Microsoft's seems to me to be a sort of variant of the same gag.
Caveat emptor.
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Re:No (Score:4, Interesting)
The folks who follow Amazon Sales Rank over time know that the Sales Rank tends to fluctuate and one needs to look at them over a period of time to draw any meaningful conclusion. The chart at http://charteo.us/amzn/compare/B000JLKIHA,B000H0QDCC/ [charteo.us] looks at the Sales Rank chart for Apple 80 GB iPod Classic (Black) and Microsoft Zune 30GB Digital Media Player (Black) over last 3 months. Yes, the chart is live and compares Sales Rank for last three months from whenever you at it. The chart does show a spike in sales of Microsoft Zune during Oct.-Nov.'07 time frame, but then it levels off. In contrast, Apple iPod sales have been steady and better than its competitor for most of the time. The bump in Sales Rank of Zune could have been due to heavy discounts or special promotion campaign or both.
There is another factor to consider -- both Apple iPod and Microsoft Zune are available in different models and different colors, and each one gets its own Sales Rank. So comparing Sales Rank by picking a single model, even over a period of time, is misleading. As Sales Ranks are not additive, you can't simply add Sales Ranks of various models (or combine them in some interesting way, though this may be possible with some advanced math) to arrive at a single statistic.
I do a bit more analysis od Sales Rank charts of different iPod and Zune models in my blog post at http://charteo.us/The-Myth-of-Microsoft-Zune-Beating-Apple-iPod-as-Holiday-Gift-Item/ [charteo.us].
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Re:No (Score:4, Informative)
This was debunked months ago...There are no current generation iPods on the list. For some reason Amazon is not counting current generation iPods as a portable media player.
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Re:No [Expletive] (!!) (Score:4, Insightful)
Also, how many people do you think get their iPods from Apple vs. Amazon? Does Microsoft even sell the Zune directly (answer: no)? So regarding on the sales from Amazon is kinda ludicrous...
Regardless of Microsoft's involvement of it, anyone using these data to claim that the Zune is outpacing the iPod sales has had their reality cable become unplugged...
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Re:No (Score:5, Funny)
Aside from your comment about the music store, from what I've seen of the Zune (I don't own either an iPod or a Zune) it works just fine for a media player. Yeah, the color schemes are lame and they certainly don't have the marketing team that Apple does for their units, but money talks.
I have this sneaking suspicion that there will be a lot of forced smiles and strained "Thanks, Mom"s come Christmas morning.
Followed by a spike in iPod sales the following week.
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Re:No (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:No (Score:5, Funny)
I'm going to have to steal that line.
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You HAVE to be kidding (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:No (Score:5, Informative)
Not only that, but putting the music on the zune isn't as easy a task as setting up iTunes. I have a first-gen zune (brown, no less) and it took me over an hour to get the software installed and get ready to use the zune. Also, I got the zune second-hand and once I set up my software, I wasn't able to play any of the music that was left on it. It kept saying that I didn't have permission. When I asked the guy who I got it from about that, he said that they were mp3'd using the zune's software, so he didn't know why that was the case... they shouldn't have been DRM'd.
I don't know if the new zunes fixed that or if the new zunes have a better interface on the device itself (I do know they haven't really gotten the desktop application any simpler. it's still a pain to use). The old zune is a pain in the arse to navigate and the only thing I really feel it has going for it is the larger screen, although I haven't put any video on it, yet.
so, has anyone used one of the new zunes, yet? has MS improved the interface? The physical box definitely is much nicer looking than the original model and, from a purely superficial standpoint looks like it can compete with the ipods... at least with the general consumer population.
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Re:No (Score:5, Interesting)
By June 2007, Microsoft had stuffed the channel with 1.2 million units. Retailers have been trying to sell them ever since, as low as $80. The fact that last years models, which Microsoft has already claimed having sold, are being sold at fire sale prices of a half to a quarter of the original price indicate that Microsoft hasn't made any profit on the Zune hardware.
Last year, the speculation was that Microsoft would give away hardware with a rental subscription. So the OP is pointing out that no, the hardware itself is a huge failure, and rentals (or sales) can't even bring those losses into the black. Microsoft can't make any money on downloads. Even Apple didn't make money on downloads until it was selling millions of downloads per week.
The idea that Microsoft backers would parade out the line that "the Zune 30 is outselling the iPod at certain retailers!!!" was predicted last week in:
Why Microsoft's Zune is Still Failing [roughlydrafted.com]
Last winter, I detailed why Microsoft's iPod Killer would fail miserably. This year, Microsoft will fail again, but for a new set of reasons. It is not obvious that the company has figured this out itself. Here's why the Zune will fail in 2007, and how Microsoft is painting a fraudulent portrait of interest that doesn't exist.
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Re:mp3 to go (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:Leaving aside the usual Apple vs MS stuff... (Score:4, Funny)
What's worse, it was my girlfriend that started me running!
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