NC Man Fined For Using Vegetable Oil As Fuel

mdsolar writes "The News and Observer reports on an Charlotte, NC driver who has been fined $1000 for not paying a fuel tax when he fills his tank with vegetable oil. Perhaps the funniest quote is this one: '"With the high cost of fuel right now, the department does recognize that a lot of people are looking for relief," said Reggie Little, assistant director of the motor fuel taxes division. "We're not here to hurt the small guy, we're just trying to make sure that the playing field is level."' Sure, since the field is so plainly tilted against Arab oil interests."

Regardless

[Antony-Kyre (807195)]

Regardless of whether the law is against him or not, the very fact the state is going to fine him is going to be bad press for the state itself.

bad press for the state itself.

[drgonzo59 (747139)]

bad press for the state itself.

So what? The people will move out of the state because of it? Someone who has a good job, children in school and family members will decide to move because the state fined someone $2k for using unauthorized fuel? What else would happen, the state will be ranked last on 'environment friendly states' list? In other words, the state is not the same as a company, a state's bad image is harder to link to immediate loss of profits.

Re:bad press for the state itself.

[Antony-Kyre (807195)]

Depending on the state legislature, it may or may not end up pushing some citizens to contact their state legislators to provide an exemption.

Re:bad press for the state itself.

[Anonymous Cow herd (2036)]

The biggest paper "The Charlotte Observer" doesn't carry this type of news.

Oh really? Better have them yank this [charlotte.com] then...

Many states fine you for driving with heating oil

[billstewart (78916)]

While this is the first time I've heard of a fine for using biodiesel, there are a lot of states that will fine businesses and sometimes individuals for using home heating oil instead of regular diesel. It's the same reason - highway taxes - and they don't whine about "level playing fields", they just say they want the money. There isn't much difference between some grades of diesel and heating oil - diesel may or may not have some additives in it, and some states will put colored dye in them so you can tell them apart and bust gas stations that sell heating oil as diesel.

Back when I lived in New Jersey, I had oil heat, and if I'd forgotten to check the oiltank dipstick in a while and ran out of oil at night, I could get a can of diesel at the gas station to restart my furnace until the oil people could get there. It was really convenient.

What happens if you buy it from a gas station

[grahamsz (150076)]

There are a few gas stations near me that sell actual biodiesel.. presumably that's properly taxed.

I imagine he's being hit by the same kind of statute that would stop you using red or farm diesel in your car.

Re:What happens if you buy it from a gas station

[bman08 (239376)]

If his is like most of the other greasecars out there, it's got a dual fuel system with veggie oil on one side and standard diesel or a biodeisel mix on the other for warming up and purging the engine (cold veggie oil is thick and gelatinous). The result is a vehicle that should have legal fuel in at least one of its tanks. If one is street legal, fully taxed diesel; how does Johnny Law prove that this guy was running on the untaxed grease at the time of the arrest?

Re:What happens if you buy it from a gas station

[nomadic (141991)]

If one is street legal, fully taxed diesel; how does Johnny Law prove that this guy was running on the untaxed grease at the time of the arrest?

By the french fry smell.

Re:Many states fine you for driving with heating o

[onsblu (1047608)]

Singapore takes a similar approach, however, it is also easier to get by without a car in city-state. American cities could probably benefit from the congestion tax implemented in London, which applies to cars in the city during business hours; I know that NYC is looking into this. One major problem with taxing either gas or cars is that it is a regressive tax. Besides, it doesn't matter just how fuel efficient or expensive a car is, what matters is the emissions created during its use (and production). A carbon tax addresses these issues, because it is intended to be a revenue neutral tax, in which the money that is collected from corporations selling energy of fuels to consumers is returned when consumers file for taxes. This way, individuals can make their own short-term (driving habits) and long-term (car purchases) based on the premise that they can save by cutting down on their carbon emissions. http://www.carbontax.org/ [carbontax.org] By the way, you can't "really make taxation progressive by taxing the percentage of the vehicle's value to bring in the necessary revenue," because that's the same principal as sales tax which is the primary example of a regressive tax.

Re:Many states fine you for driving with heating o

[GundamFan (848341)]

If a state or city institutes a tax on carbon with the expressed purpose of spending the money neutralizing the taxed emissions it won't take long before the governing body is spending those taxes on other budget items or subsidies for large businesses that have no real benefit for the people paying the "carbon tax".

Re:Sales tax isn't regressive

[Firethorn (177587)]

You're forgetting that Richard eats out while Paul eats at home*. That Richard spends $100k on clothes a year while Paul pays $300/year for his clothing. That Richard goes to the dealership for his maintenance while Paul does his own for the most part. And wtf is Paul doing buying a car costing a whole year's income?

Using just the car is a bad example. First - it's not an annual purchase.

We have the issue where 'rich' is more a statement of assets available more than it's a statement of income. Sure, if you make a million bucks a year you're 'rich' - But we still have 'millionaires' declaring bankruptcy. A large income helps, but it's not a guarantee. Just look at comparative debt loads.

Now, by the arguement that Richard is likely NOT spending all of his money while John is, would be an arguement that the sales tax is regressive. Still, if Richard goes hog wild while John is a careful spender, Richard can still end up paying a higher percentage of income as sales tax vs John.

Look at it as an encouragement to save. Which is a good thing.

*Restaurant food is generally subject to sales tax, while food from a market generally isn't.

Re:Many states fine you for driving with heating o

[thebdj (768618)]

NO! You are assuming that fairness is that the rich pay more than the poor. That is not true! Fairness would state that the person who uses the roads the most would pay the most in taxes. No if ands or buts about it.

This is what toll roads were created for. The tolls pay for the roads. These are still supplemented by taxes, but it makes sense that if more roads were tolled, fewer taxes would be needed on gasoline.

Personally, I feel that gas taxes are one of the fairest taxes the government imposes, as it's an actual usage tax. If you use the infrastructure more, you pay more in taxes. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

Except, it isn't. Less fuel economic cars get raped. It isn't just about everyone driving SUVs, but think of the poor family that cannot afford anything then that clunker from the 1980s. They are not getting the same mileage as the rich guy who decided to either "save" money or be more eco-friendly with his Hybrid. The cost of a hybrid is significantly more in some cases then its all fuel counterpart. So, in this case, the poorer are paying for the roads, while the richer are using less fuel and therefore paying less taxes, even if they are driving more.

Also, things other then cars run on fuel. These people are also paying for the roads. Gas powered lawn mowers burn on the same fuel. I don't think there are many mowers that are running down streets, especially if they are the walk-behind kind. Generators can run on fuel. These also do not move down the road, so why are they taxed to pay for roads in the same way as fuel used to power a vehicle? It might not be "fair", but it would be smart to tax the cars. The reason is that gas prices have gotten to a point they are pinching people's budgets. They are not pinching the budget of the well-off (and neither would a car tax), they are pinching the lower (and in some cases even the middle) class. How long before people have to decide between gas to get to work, or food to feed themselves or their children? This sort of decision is also bad for the economy when you consider that the "extremely rich" make up such a small percentage of the US population. (Note: I am not a fan of any taxation, but I think that to say a "fuel tax" is fair is BS.)

The guy was evading taxes (even if he didn't realize it), and must pay the price. End of story.

No, he was avoiding paying what is essentially a collective monopoly (after all there is an oil cartel). These are the same people who adjusted the price of E-85, so it would cost the same as (or close to) regular unleaded fuel. These are companies who are fronts for oil producing countries. These taxes and fines only strengthen their potential monopoly by closing out a free market (not a huge fan of that ideal either). It constrains the abilities of the local consumer to come up with an alternate fuel setup and discourages them from using anything that is auto-fuel. BTW, if he was running a 100% electric car, is he dodging taxes because he is using the roadways but is not paying gas taxes? How is this ANY different?

Re:Many states fine you for driving with heating o

[orlanz (882574)]

So because I am better or more efficient at deriving value out of a service/good, I should be punished more than someone who is less efficient or worse at deriving value from the same service/good? Ok....

As long as I am not purposely hurting others, at the end of the day, how I derive that value is really irrelavent.

It isn't a matter of benefit, but rather a personal act of deriving. The former implies the state provides/gives unfairly more value to the rich rather than to the poor (in which case I would agree with you). Which is BS, the state doesn't provide jack. It reallocates while taking its own transaction cost cut and then some. Here, all customers are allocated the same service/good. The later (derives) implies personal action and drive to generate productive value for society from the service/good.

If the poor guy wanted to derive more value from the infrastructure, then he should strive and struggle to do so (getting a higher paying job being just one of many options).

Re:bad press for the state itself.

[ultranova (717540)]

Fortunately, the options people have are a slight bit more subtle than that. There is a middle ground between apathy and packing up and moving out.

Yeah, you could write a disapproving letter to the state government. That will show them !

Re:bad press for the state itself.

[palewook (1101845)]

A disapproving letter to a state government in 2007 will only increase the chance you end up on somebody's watch list..

You might be surprised.

[Organic Brain Damage (863655)]

Minnesota Public Radio runs a regular (every 3 months or so) chat with former governors. Wendell Anderson (the one on the cover of Time Magazine in the 1970's holding up a big Walleye...or was it a Northern, oh well, you get the idea) and Arne Carlson and maybe they had one other but I can't remember his name.

They both clearly, seriously (and humorously) claimed that writing actual letters (not e-mail) to state legislators or governors had an impact. And if they got 3-5 letters, they assumed that small number of people sufficiently motivated to write and post a letter represented a much larger number of people who felt the same way.

Maybe it's just in Minnesota or in the past, or both, but I doubt it.

Re:You might be surprised.

[crawling_chaos (23007)]

But it needs to be a letter. With a stamp and everything and no sign of being a form letter downloaded from a web site. I work in DC and I can tell you that with the use of the web to mobilize mass campaigns, the value of an email to your legislator is rapidly approaching zero. Too much noise, not enough signal, particularly when many of the emails come from enraged activists who aren't even constituents.

Re:Regardless

[Original Replica (908688)]

I hope he pays in pennies. Dumptrucked to the front steps of the courthouse.

Re:Regardless

[the_tsi (19767)]

For those who missed further intricacies of the above joke, (former) NASCAR driver Rusty Wallace (who, along with most other NASCAR teams, is/was headquartered just outside of Charlotte, NC) was fined $5000 for an infraction during a race in 1997. He paid the fine in pennies delivered to the NASCAR officials in an armored truck -- during the next weekend's race, no less, in an attempt to turn it into a PR stunt. (It worked.)

Re:Regardless

[Myrrh (53301)]

...but only if the dump truck is running on WVO. The irony coup de grace.

Re:So what? It's North Carolina...

[fyngyrz (762201)]

Time to get really nervous if you have to push your car...

Re:So what? It's North Carolina...

[fractoid (1076465)]

If you want to sit I'll tax your seat
If you take a walk I'll tax your feet...

No, they'll tax your odometer

[maillemaker (924053)]

Eventually, we are all going to be driving cars that run on something other than gasoline.

The state will simply move the taxation to a different point.

If your car runs on hydrogen, they will tax hydrogen.

If your car runs on electricity, they will tax the electricity. Perhaps we will all have special power meters for plugging in our cars at night.

If it becomes too difficult to tax the fuel source, they will simply issue an annual tax based on your odometer reading. Perhaps you will be allowed to pay it in installments over the course of the year.

Government greed for your tax dollars aside, the roads and infrastructure /do/ need to be paid for, and today, they are in no small part paid for through gasoline taxes. If that revenue goes away, it's going to have to come from somewhere else.

Re:No, they'll tax your odometer

[Like2Byte (542992)]

Eventually, we are all going to be driving cars that run on something other than gasoline.

The answer: YABBA DABBA DOOO!

Re:So what? It's North Carolina...

[OS24Ever (245667)]

Actually they're looking at taxing per mile with GPS encoders in your car showing how far you drove.

I believe Oregon has already piloted said program. The problem seems to be as people push for higher per mile return on the fuel it uses their revenues go down. So now they feel they should get a per-mile rate instead of a per-gallon rate.

I'm a bit surprised this was tagged with humor, as it's not really funny and it's really happening to this guy and sets a precedent for other states to come after all of the folks interested in not burning oil products to make their cars move.

I'm sure we'll see some asinine proposals to add taxes to wind power generation/solar generation that is done by individuals to live off-grid or to reduce their consumption because once again with the taxes placed on the electrical usage reducing your usage of it via these methods is stripping the state of it's ability to generate revenue.

Heaven forbid the states actually reduce their output as well. There sure seems to be a lot of waste in government, at least in my experience with seeing the back end of government entities.

Re:Ask a long-haul Trucker about NC taxes!

[Sparr0 (451780)]

Mod parent down, completely untrue on the measure/fine part.

Re:Ask a long-haul Trucker about NC taxes!

[pla (258480)]

Yes it may be an AC, but if you are going to make a claim. Back it up with a link something resembling proof please.

The burden of proof here rests on the poster originally making the assertion, not the respondant calling BS.

You can't prove they don't do something - Even official statements to the contrary wouldn't disprove the practice. OTOH, to support the GP's stance, he need only post a single instance of such fines occurring.

Re:Ask a long-haul Trucker about NC taxes!

[polar red (215081)]

for doing nothing.

Yeah, cuz the state doesn't build roads, right ?

Re:Ask a long-haul Trucker about NC taxes!

[ukyoCE (106879)]

IPAFTTS (I programmed a fuel tax tracking system) and this is how it works. The trucking industry is *heavily* regulated. Truckers are required to keep log books recording much of their travels. In the end, it really doesn't matter too much what state you buy gas in - it's just delaying the inevitable. You track how many miles you drive in each state, and pay fuel taxes to each state based on miles. So you can fill up 2 miles over the border in Virginia, but if you drove 1,000 miles in North Carolina this quarter, you're still required to pay North Carolina taxes on those 1,000 miles as if you bought gas there.

The penalties for not filing your fuel taxes on time every quarter as pretty hefty too.

Yep, it's a royal pain in the ass.

Re:Ask a long-haul Trucker about NC taxes!

[mcvos (645701)]

Punitive taxation to satisfy personal agendas?

It's called "making people reimburse society for the damage they do".

Biodiesel

[narced (1078877)]

Does anyone else get hungry when they smell biodiesel exhaust? Reminds me of McDonald's.

Re:Biodiesel

[dwater (72834)]

Yeah, makes me want to throw up a few hours later. Reminds me of McDonald's too.

Hell hath NO fury

[WCMI92 (592436)]

Like a woman scorned?

HARDLY.

That pales in comparison with the fury of a government that isn't getting it's "cut".

We truly lost our freedoms when it became accepted that the government has an inalienable right to a "cut" of ALL transactions!

No mistake about it.

[Rocketship Underpant (804162)]

You're absolutely right. I wish I had mod points, and I wish my friends list weren't limited to 200 names -- you deserve a spot.

Americans have become so used to their loss of freedoms in day-to-day life, they forget how absolutely invasive and totalitarian their government has become. Want to be innovative with your fuel or save a little money? Big Brother didn't get his cut, so here's a fine for $2000, and if you do it again, we'll toss you in jail as a threat to "society". It's just like the mafia telling the new business owner on the block that he needs to pay a hefty protection fee like his neighbours do, and it would be a shame if someone burnt down his shop otherwise.

The sad thing is, I fully expect to see many misguided Slashdotters stand up for the state here and defend this ridiculous fine.

Re:No mistake about it.

[jgc7 (910200)]

The parent comment is nothing more than a troll.

From the article, The state Department of Revenue, which fined Teixeira, has asked legislators to waive the $2,500 bond for small fuel users. The department also told Teixeira, after the Observer asked about his case this week, that it will compromise on his fine.

So Big Brother has asked Big Brother to fix a stupid law. Big Brother is also willing to compromise on Big Brother's cut. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

Re:Hell hath NO fury

[WCMI92 (592436)]

"Normally, I'm against libertarian notions like this, but this is the danger of governments. I mean, the concept is square and solid for businesses dealing in fuels, but what about average joes trying to get by with biodiesel or other forms of power?"

Presumably taxes were paid on the stuff that made the bio fuel oil in every phase of transaction. The farmer paid taxes, the producer paid taxes, the McDonalds paid taxes, those who bought the fries fried in the oil paid taxes, etc.

How many times should the government be able to tax one product?

Re:Hell hath NO fury

[I_Love_Pocky! (751171)]

I think you are missing the point here. All of the taxes you mentioned are different kinds of taxes for different purposes. Fuel taxes in many states are used for transportation costs like road maintenance and public transportation (which in theory reduces traffic). It's like a use tax for the road system. Why should those who choose to pursue alternative fuel sources automatically get an out on paying for the roads they are going to be driving on with that alternative fuel? I could understand a state making the choice to promote alternative fuels by giving them tax breaks, but it seems like a decision that should be made rather than assumed. At the end of the day, there are costs that those taxes are paying, and we should all pay our fair share of it. If you feel like taxes are too high, pressure your legislators to cut taxes, and programs.

Re:Hell hath NO fury

[Chandon Seldon (43083)]

Trying to tax a product based on how it's used is absurd.

The correct thing to do here is this: Define the tax to be on gasoline / diesel sales at a gas station. If a significant portion of the population (even a couple percent) decides to get diesel automobiles and buy heating oil to fuel them, then either apply the tax to sales of heating oil too or remove the tax on diesel fuel and create a yearly tax on owning a diesel vehicle. There's no reason to worry about vegetable oil at all - there isn't a large enough supply to matter.

My point is this: Distributors should be responsible for taxes on products they sell. If a few people get similar products through different channels, that's ok - they may be fringe, or the market may be changing. Once the market has changed, the taxes should be changed to catch up. But fining people for making a non-standard market choice is absurd - in fact, it should be criminal.

Fair enough

[G-funk (22712)]

It's fair enough really. The tax is for road usage, not petrol usage. The bowser is just the fairest place to take it. That's why farmers get to use a "special" coloured diesel that has less tax on it.

Re:Fair enough

[timmarhy (659436)]

no, road use is what vehicle rego is for. This is just petty to the fucking extreme. i wonder how in the world he got done for it in the first place, surely not enough people are doing this for the government to have crack down on it to protect their precious taxes.

this is all besides the fact that why is it anyones business what i use to run my car? am i dodging fuel taxes by using an electic car?

Re:Fair enough

[timmarhy (659436)]

"illegal for the government to charge more for a service (like vehicle registration) than it actually costs to provide the service"

You sir, amuse me.

Re:Fair enough

[dabraun (626287)]

Of course there is no system in place for paying taxes on your alternative-source fuel, nor, to my knowledge, any actual law in place saying that you can't use an alternative fuel (other than farm gas) on a public road.

If the system of taxing based on gas is broken, fix it - though at this stage of the game the number of people driving with something other than normal fuel is so low it's hardly worth worrying about.

It would cost more to pass and enforce the law, make a system for recieving funds from the fuel etc than they would make on it. If the number became high enough there would be a distribution system in place (vegetable oil at the pump) which could effectively tax it.

Nevermind that growing crops to create fuel oil has so many environmental problems that it shouldn't even be considered at this point.

Fair's Fair

[mdsolar (1045926)]

NC has a 20.2 cpg subsidy for B20 http://www.globalsubsidies.org/IMG/pdf/biofuels_su bsidies_us.pdf [globalsubsidies.org] which he is not getting since he is buying his oil at the store. Since he is basically using B100, the state should be paying him 5*20.2-29.9(use tax)=71.1 cpg. So, fining him for this seems about as funny as it gets.
--
No Joke! Rent solar power and fix your electric rates for 25 years: http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-users -selling-solar.html [blogspot.com]

Re:Fair enough

[mark-t (151149)]

If it was for road usage, why aren't cyclists also charged?

Correction: NC Man Fined For Using NC Roads

[Fred Ferrigno (122319)]

C'mon, you could at least mention that the gas tax is really an indirect tax on road use. You might even point out that the fine is intended to offset his use of the NC road system and has absolutely nothing to do with how he fuels his car.

Do we want to subsidize motorists who use alternate fuels by exempting them from the taxes on road use? Maybe, maybe not. But they're not exempt yet, so this guy has to pay his fair share. Not that surprisingly, really.

humor?

[updog (608318)]

wtf is this tagged "humor"?

It's obviously not a joke, and it's certainly not funny that people who are actually trying to make a difference are getting donkey punched by the local authorities.

Arab Oil interests?

[mr100percent (57156)]

"Arab Oil interests?"

That's a cheap shot at Arabs. And untrue. Did you know [doe.gov] that the top 2 sources of crude oil are Canada and Mexico? Followed by Saudi Arabia and Venezuela? 3 of the top 4 sources of oil are non-Arab.

Re:Arab Oil interests?

[whitehatlurker (867714)]

No, no. That's not true. [mystic Jedi hand gesture] All your oil comes from the Middle East. [repeat gesture] There is no country called Canada.

These are not the oil-rich targets you're looking for.

pathetic, but telling

[ChipMonk (711367)]

I'm reminded of this quip from my fortunes file:

"We will have solar energy as soon as the utility companies solve one technical problem--how to run a sunbeam through a meter."

Changes to the law in the UK

[Gordonjcp (186804)]

In July the law is changing over here, so that people producing biodiesel for their own use (and less than some ridiculously huge amount, like 2500 litres) will be exempt from paying fuel duty on it.

Breaking stupid laws works, people. The sooner the US population wakes up to this idea, the better.