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Free (As In Speech) Beer, V2.0

Posted by kdawson on Tue May 13, 2008 04:56 AM
from the brewed-awakening dept.
It's funny. Laugh. Quickies
AgentPaper writes "Three years ago we discussed an open source brewing project in which a Danish brewer made his beer recipes available for public consumption and alteration. The concept has taken off, first with the 'Free Beer Project' in Denmark and now with Flying Dog's 'Collaborator' Doppelbock in the US, which was created via input from home brewers across the world. One version of the Collaborator is commercially brewed and available for purchase (and is darned tasty), but you can download the same recipe and labels, brew it yourself, and submit your mods back to the project."
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[+] Free Beer That's Free as in Speech 379 comments
darkonc writes "The CBC has notes and an interview with Dane Rasmus Nielsen who decided to reduce the confusion between 'free as in speech' and 'free as in beer' by making a beer free -- in speech. The result is Vores Oel, an open source beer. The CBC site includes the recipe for the beer which is made with Guarana beans, and gives it a bit of a caffeine-like hit. The danish site downloads include the label for the beer (which is also Open Source)."
Submission: Free (as-in-Speech) Beer, v. 2.0 by AgentPaper (968688)
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  • It's fine and dandy to have Free (as in Speech) Beer, but I would certainly be better off with Free (as in Beer) Beer.

    Free beer is only free if your time is worth nothing.

    • Re:Missed half the point! (Score:5, Informative)

      by Xiph (723935) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @05:21AM (#23389278)
      When you make it yourself, it's close to half price of regular beer and often the result is better. For the experienced brewer often becomes almost always.

      When you brew beer commercially, it becomes very important to make same beer every time, and to make something which easy to consume.
      The consumer beer is lighter (in colour and taste), because that's what you can drink in large quantities.

      If you want beer full of flavour, the price goes up, or you have to make it yourself.

      • Re:Missed half the point! (Score:5, Interesting)

        by tgatliff (311583) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @06:09AM (#23389466)
        I have made beer for many years (extract and all grain), and I can tell you that most real ales and lagers, the best you can do is about break even. Meaning, on the high end side of beers, you can do allot better because their transportation costs kill them, but for many of the domestic beers its very close... I will admit that all grain brewing is cheaper than extract, but... Well you get my point...

        Anyway, the reason I still brew my own beer is simply because I think the quality is better, just as I think OSS is as well. Most import beers ae oxidized quite heavily by the time you get them, just as with most commercial software (Vista comes to mind here) is as well, but if you brew it completely on your own, especially with natural carbonation, then that living beer can last for at least a decade. For OSS, it actually is allot longer... :)

        • Re:Missed half the point! (Score:5, Interesting)

          by timmarhy (659436) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @06:43AM (#23389630)
          eh, only break even? what the hell are you brewing with? hops for a single brew cost about $8, grain costs about $10 ( 5kgs). add in about $4 for CO2 and gas. that's $22 (AUD) for 20L of beer. in real terms that's a bit over 2 slabs which would normally cost up to $60 - $80.

          there is an initial outlay, lets be generous and say you got a keg system with 2 kegs a filter CO2 regulator and all the bits and pieces. you can pick those up on ebay for $400. that gear would pay for itself after 10.5 batches. thats not even taking into account the fact you can resell the equipment later on, and most probably recoup 60% or better of the cost (kegs go up in price, not down)

          • OOF! sho shorry... I loshed you after... after you shed 20litersh... of beersh... HAECK!

            shay again pleesh... ...mmmmm...good head...

          • Re:Missed half the point! (Score:4, Insightful)

            by paanta (640245) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @07:47AM (#23389962) Homepage
            I agree that it's cheaper, but only if you drink a fair amount of beer and if you're not factoring in your time. It's a couple of hours of work to brew a 5 gallon batch, which with what I value my time, is a fair amount of money. Factor in the 10 square feet of floor area in my house taken up by all my brewing crap, at say $15/sf/yr. And the time spent reading about brewing. And worrying about every batch like it's my child. And the electricity used by your kegerator.

            On the other hand, it's damn hard to find a better beer than what you make at home. Perhaps other homebrewers have had the experience of drinking almost solely their own beer for a year or two, then going somewhere and having a beer you used to think was the bee's knees only to find it a flavorless, depressing swill. Or going somewhere and drinking a beer that you used to find good-but-overwhelming (Dogfish Head 90 minute?) and finding it a whole lot more easy to drink.

            • Time is money! (Score:5, Insightful)

              by Tony (765) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @08:28AM (#23390272) Homepage Journal
              Do you go to the movies? If so, do you factor in the price of your time along with the tickets and popcorn?

              When drinking beer, do you factor in the time it takes to drink it, as well as the cost of the beer itself? How about going out to dinner? Do you tack on an additional $100/hr for your time?

              How do you pay yourself? It seems like it would get a bit circular. "Hey, Self, here's the $100 I owe you for the last hour. Don't spend it all in one place, you know you have payroll coming up in an hour!"

              • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

                by Anonymous Coward
                The discussion was comparing the cost of home production to the cost of purchasing beer, not the cost of consuming beer. And yes, drinking beer consumes time which could be used in other ways. When studying economic efficiency it makes sense to think of time spent in terms of currency but that is not the only metric by which time can be valued. You are correct to think that time can be valuable based on our own satisfaction but it is still interesting to compare production costs of beer with the price we

              • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

                by DFJA (680282)

                When drinking beer, do you factor in the time it takes to drink it, as well as the cost of the beer itself? How about going out to dinner? Do you tack on an additional $100/hr for your time?

                My time costs £100 per hour, so you can be very sure that for a 20-minute pint I'm not going to be drinking some cheap, nasty rubbish. In fact the more slowly I intend to drink it, the more expensive I go. Cheap and nasty beer should only be drunk in a hurry, preferably without stopping to pay a visit to your taste buds.

          • Re:Missed half the point! (Score:5, Insightful)

            by tgatliff (311583) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @08:08AM (#23390120)
            Listen, we might looking at this for a different perspective... Can you make beer cheap??? Absolutely.... Can you do that to match the exact quality of a true premium... That is allot harder...

            Realistically, from my experience to get the same quality and consistency of true premium ales/lagers there are allot of things required. Excluding lagers, the cost of yeast starter prep work, mash tuns, water purifying/ph correction/mineral corrections... Even with ales you must keep the at the optimum fermentation range of 65F during the entire primary ferment. This takes equipment, time, and cost which all most be figured in. Also, keep in mind that the cost of time is a big one. Also, it must spend several weeks in the secondary being monitored for clarity, and depending on the type of grain might need additional clarification related items/procedures. Once again... Time and Expense... Third, the time and expense to bottle as I general do not like artificial CO2 because for most premiums it alters the unique living beer taste... I could go on, because I hope you are seeing my point... Making beer is easy... Making true high end beers (which is where the true savings is) is not...

            In short... I do this because I do believe it makes a difference and I appreciate the added quality of taste, but I really do not pretend by saying that I save money by doing it. I am constantly reminded with the amount of equipment, and the space it takes up, that saving much money is unlikely...
      • Well it all depends of the beer we are talking about. If you meant pils you are right. I'm personnally a fan of trappist beers (orval, chimay) or abbey beer such as Leffe. All are quite heavy (6% to 9% I think). Sure it costs slightly more but I don't drink much (one per week) anyway.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by gosand (234100)
        When you make it yourself, it's close to half price of regular beer and often the result is better. For the experienced brewer often becomes almost always.

        When you brew beer commercially, it becomes very important to make same beer every time, and to make something which easy to consume.
        The consumer beer is lighter (in colour and taste), because that's what you can drink in large quantities.

        If you want beer full of flavour, the price goes up, or you have to make it yourself.

        It's sad that people still think

        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by cp.tar (871488)

          I think the idea of applying the FOSS method to recipes is brilliant!

          Especially since the idea of FOSS comes from recipes.

          My father and my grandparents also can various foodstuffs at home, and the quality is vastly superior to anything you can buy in a store.
          But it takes quite a bit of time.

        • Re:Missed half the point! (Score:5, Insightful)

          by PopeRatzo (965947) * on Tuesday May 13 2008, @07:21AM (#23389832) Homepage Journal
          My wife, who grew up in a Communist Eastern European country (yes, I bought her on the internet) spent most of her life with food and drink that is made at home. As an American IdiotTM, I grew up suspicious of any food that didn't come wrapped in plastic or aluminum.

          I can even remember as a kid, wanting to go to McDonalds and my mom saying "I'll make you a nice hamburger here at home" and I'd be really upset because I preferred a skinny, greasy Golden Arches meat cookie to the fat, lovely fresh burger my mom would make. Needless to say, there's not much I wouldn't give for another burger (or anything else) made by my mom.

          I can tell you, after the years I've spent married, that's changed. When I have that deep gnawing need for sustenance, I go look for an unlabeled jar in the basement first. There are few things edible or drinkable that I'm not certain could be done better at home, with love, than in a factory by workers in white overalls and hairnets.

          Have you ever had home made root beer or fig preserves? Just thinking about all these things has me drooling on myself as I sit here at 7am.

          • Re:Missed half the point! (Score:4, Insightful)

            by CastrTroy (595695) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @08:34AM (#23390310) Homepage
            My Grandfather used to make homemade rootbeer. From what I remember it was quite a bit better than the store bought stuff. We also make a lot of home made food, that most people would just get out of a can. Home made soups and sauces taste quite a bit better than what you get at the store, and are a lot more healthier. Even the low sodium soups at the store contain more salt than most people would put in a home made soup. Real home made food just tastes a lot better. Sadly, I think a lot of people don't realize, or forget just how much better home cooking is.
    • Free (as in Beer) Beer.

      Change your nick to GoodAnalogyGuy - there is no analogy that is not improved with a beer analoguy.

      • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Only if you promise to change yours to !Whiney Mac Fanboy.

  • The first thing I ever got from the net ... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by dbIII (701233) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @05:06AM (#23389220)
    ... was free beer recipies. It was "The Jolly Brewer" in postscript format made by people on alt.rec.brewing some time in the late 1980's or early 1990s. It was certainly before the web came along in 1992.
    • I remember that! I had just gotten my start with homebrewing and I found quite a few of the free recipes a big help as I learned and grew my repetoire.

      I've always thought of homebrewing to be a bit like Open Source anyways. The vast majority of brewers I know are more than happy to share their recipes and secrets with fellow brewers. It's an activity that lends itself to collaboration.

  • Not free for everyone (Score:5, Informative)

    by KDR_11k (778916) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @05:07AM (#23389226)
    In some jurisdictions you need a license to brew beer. I doubt that's included...

  • I am glad I don't have to... (Score:5, Funny)

    by patio11 (857072) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @05:09AM (#23389240)
    ... listen to the bug reports for this one.

    "*slurrred* We've been waiting on RC2 for years now and you still haven't fixed B..b..bug #272 Sporadic Bubble Popping. Lazy bastards, I'd fork if I could tell the difference between a fork and a spoon right now."
  • Much like Free coke & Linux, i love the idea but they haven't managed to break the OEM monopoly(ok Linux is doing it slowly) meaning that unless you want to make your own, which can be tricky and may not work/taste as well/good as a premade one.
    Unfortunately it looks like its just for enthusiasts, unless they can make it significantly better than the competition and get OEMs to offer it (e.g much better performance/usability on small systems). Unfortunately for beer/coke there is no metric as its down t
    • Disregard that it seams sleep deprivation has kicked in and i switched threads from beer to coke half way through that post, I dont think that there are any ethical issues around beer companies, but my point stands that there is no way to get the beer easily (e.g at your pub)
    • I'm waiting for the LiveCD brewery.
        • You ask for one and this Shuttleworth guy sends you a six pack, and ask you to give them to your friends (yeah like that's gunna happen *burp*)

  • Beer isn't software (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 13 2008, @05:31AM (#23389310)
    There are many of us who brew beer as a hobby. We have competitions. We help each other. We trade recipes and equipment. Some of us are a bit stingy with our beer though.

    There are university courses on beer making. Beer making is well understood. It is not at all like programming. All of the effort is in the programming, once the program is written, that's it, you're done. Beer recipes are fairly simple programs that don't change all that much between beers that are quite different. The goodness of the beer is determined by the skill of the brewer. Given the same recipe, two of us will produce different tasting beers.

    How you heat and cool your beer determines how the different enzymes will work and that determines how the beer tastes (in addition to the obvious hops and barley). The exact temperature profile is a function of your equipment. Beer made in a large batch with steam heat and water cooling will be different from my five gallon batches.

    Beer is a craft. It isn't the same as software because the same program (recipe) won't always produce the same result. The program I wrote yesterday will run the same any time of year. Beer, on the other hand, cares when I make it. Around here, we don't brew between May and October.

    Creating an open source beer project ... I don't see the point.

    • Re:Beer isn't software (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Tx (96709) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @05:43AM (#23389368) Journal
      Beer is a craft. It isn't the same as software because the same program (recipe) won't always produce the same result. The program I wrote yesterday will run the same any time of year. Beer, on the other hand, cares when I make it. Around here, we don't brew between May and October.

      The conditions under which the brewing occurs are part of the "program", and the same program certainly should always produce the same results. If you don't have control of some of your initial variables, then you will get varying results, whether you're talking software or beer.

    • Re:Beer isn't software (Score:5, Interesting)

      by wrook (134116) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @05:58AM (#23389416) Homepage
      As an avid brewer, I agree with your points, but not your conclusion.

      One of the biggest challenges to improving your brewing is brewing to style. But style definitions are imprecise and very subjective. That's why all the style definitions come with commercial beer reference points. Dry Irish Stout - Guinness. Bohemian Pilsner - Pilsner Urquel.

      With these references, anyone who has access to commercial beer can learn more about the style. They can try to intentionally brew a beer in that style. However you're still in a bind. Let's say Fuller's London Porter is considered a reference for "London Porter" - how would I go about brewing that specific style? What grain bill should I play with? Is roast barley appropriate? Where on the hop scale should I be?

      The more information I can get about a commercial beer, the better off I am when I try to make beers like it. Sure, I'm not likely to be able to make a clone without a huge amount of work. But it's a good starting point for learning.

      A commercial brewer that gives up this information is inviting the amateur brewer to share in the creation process. They are saying, "Please try to make something like this." And while not the same as the 4 freedoms in free software, I find the sentiment similar.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Shagg (99693)
        One of the biggest challenges to improving your brewing is brewing to style.

        It depends on what your goal is. If you want to enter a competition that scores based on adherence to style, then yes, brewing to style will improve your beer. If your goal is just to make good beer, then style doesn't really matter.

  • microsoft (Score:4, Funny)

    by mapleneckblues (1145545) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @05:34AM (#23389328)
    waiting for someone to bring microsoft into this discussion... its not a matter of if, but how and when
    "1 pint ought to be enough for everyone"

    • Re:microsoft (Score:5, Funny)

      by popmaker (570147) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @06:00AM (#23389422)
      I think it's when they start offering "Microsoft beer (TM)", that tastes suspiciously like Open Beer, although not quite the same. And it has a small dog on the label, and every fourth can explodes when you open it.

      Not to mention that the newest beer only comes in ten-liter cans and you need to buy a larger fridge to store them.

      • Re:microsoft (Score:5, Funny)

        by ciaohound (118419) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @07:47AM (#23389964)
        and there's a confusing license scheme for the various degrees of crippledness:
        MS Beer Home Edition -- available only as a six-pack.
        MS Small Beer Server
        MS Beer Enterprise Edition
        MS BeerCE -- tastes like water but at least it's potable, er, portable.

        And don't forget MS Trace, for counting the number of hops.
  • In other new, I have a number of free (as in beer) speeches I'm willing to share with you guys.

  • There are many more (Score:4, Informative)

    by ebbe11 (121118) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @06:08AM (#23389456)
    Many if not most Danish home-brewers share their recipes using beercalc [haandbryg.dk]. There are over 8000 recipes here. Unfortunately for most of the readers on /. comments are usually in Danish.

  • Nothing to see here (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 13 2008, @06:31AM (#23389588)
    I've been home brewing for nearly 20 years.

    In my experience:

    1. Most brewers (home and professional) have always been willing if not eager to share their recipes with other brewers.

    2. Those brewers who do zealously guard their secret recipes usually don't make very good beer, and you wouldn't want their recipes anyway.

  • Since November, a brazilian brewer, Germania, is offering bottled free (as in speech) beer. The version is 3.4, and it seems to be good.

  • Free as in beer? (Score:5, Informative)

    by ChameleonDave (1041178) * on Tuesday May 13 2008, @09:52AM (#23391116) Homepage

    This sort of thing just shows how stupid the whole "free as in beer" v "free as in speech" thing is.

    Beer is not free "as in beer". You have the pay for the stuff. It is, on the other hand, something that anyone can make and sell in a traditional manner without worrying about infringing any sort of patent or intellectual property belonging to the ancient people who invented it.

    Speech is not free "as in speech". If I go and write a story about wizards called Harry and Dumbledore, I'll get sued. If I lie to your boss that you've been stealing from work and you get fired, I'll get sued.

    We don't need such weird terms. "Free" in the first sense is simply an abbreviation of "free of charge", so just don't abbreviate it if you want to be clear. The Latin term "gratis" is also well-known in English.

    If you absolutely insist on a term to specifically say the opposite, then "liber" is the perfect Latin counterpart to "gratis". There is also the derivative "liberal" which has several senses connected to freedom and generosity, and would be quite sufficient.

  • Speaking of Collaboration... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by siwelwerd (869956) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @10:09AM (#23391296)
    Slightly off topic, but close enough. Two microbreweries, Avery and Russian River were both producing beers called "Salvation". So instead of suing each other, they got together and blended the two beers and started marketing it as "Collaboration not Litigation". Great beer, great story, and the proceeds are going towards an educational trip to Belgium for the brewers.

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