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The Pirate Bay Seeks Interesting Route To "Pay" Fine
Posted by
ScuttleMonkey
on Mon May 11, 2009 02:53 PM
from the crowd-sourced dept.
from the crowd-sourced dept.
Drivintin is one of many who have written to tell us about how The Pirate Bay has taken an interesting approach to the 30 million SEK fine levied in their recent court case (which they said they wont pay). "The bill inspired anakata to devise a plan involving sending money to Danowsky's law firm, but not to pay the fine of course which they say will never be paid. Anakata's clever plan is called internet-avgift, internet-fee in English. Anakata encourages all Internet users to pay extremely small sums around 1 SEK (0.13 USD) to Danowsky's law firm, which represented the music companies at the Pirate Bay trial. The music companies will not benefit from this, instead it will cost them money to handle and process all the money."
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News: Music Industry Wants a Cut of Pirate Bay Sale 214 comments
suraj.sun writes "The music industry will attempt to seize money paid to acquire the Pirate Bay. A couple of weeks back the Global Gaming Factory, a Swedish software company, announced that it would acquire the Pirate Bay for $7.8 million. Since then the company has been touting a new business model and even hiring executives, such as Wayne Rosso, the former Grokster president, to legally obtain content from film and music industries. What remains to be seen is how that sale might be affected by attempts by the music industry to collect the $3.6 million damages that a Swedish court awarded it in April. Alex Jacob, a spokesman for the IFPI, said that the group has always intended to collect the damages award, but now, should the sale go through, music execs know that the original Pirate Bay operators have access to the money." According to CNet, the four original Pirates claim they no longer own the company and that no money from the sale will go to them.
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Awesome (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Awesome (Score:5, Informative)
The summary is incomplete here. They also asked users to request their payment to be reversed as 'false payment', and thats where the extra fees come from, as the swedish law firm is obligated to process them and send back to the payer.
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text (Score:5, Informative)
Pirate Bay Founder Devises DDo$ Attack [rorr.im]
Pirate Bay founder Gottfrid Svartholm (aka anakata) recieved a bill for the 30 million SEK that he, along with Peter Sunde (aka brokep), Fredrik Neij (aka TiAMO), and Carl Lundstrom, was fined in the verdict of the Pirate Bay trial just over three weeks ago. The bill inspired anakata to devise a plan involving sending money to Danowskyâ(TM)s law firm, but not to pay the fine of course which they say will never be payed. Anakataâ(TM)s clever plan is called internet-avgift, internet-fee in English. Anakata encourages all Internet users to pay extremely small sums around 1 SEK (0.13 USD) to Danowskyâ(TM)s law firm, which represented the music companies at the Pirate Bay trial. The music companies will not benefit from this, instead it will cost them money to handle and process all the money.
The plan can be called a Distributed Denial of Dollars attack (DDo$). The plan is an away-from-keyboard DDoS attack. DDoS attacks involve lots of users overloading the victim with internet traffic damaging their ability to provide services. Money, instead of Internet traffic is used in this case. The victim is Danowskyâ(TM)s law firm which represented the IFPI at the Pirate Bay trial.
A friend of anakata told Blog Pirate that the bank account to which the payments are directed has only 1000 free transfers, after which any transfers have a surcharge of 2 SEK for the account holder. Any internet-fee payments made after the first 1000, which includes the law firmâ(TM)s ordinary transfers, will instead of giving 1 SEK, cost 1 SEK to the law firm. Since Danowsky & Partners AdvokatbyrÃ¥ is a small firm, all the transactions are handled by hand. Handling all payments will be time consuming, costing the law firm in productivity. Maybe it will even affect their success in other cases.
Make direct payments to
Danowsky & Partners Advokatbyrå KB. Plusgiro 79 31 21-5.
Additionally if after paying the internet-fee you determine that your payment was erroneous, Swedish law states that you can request the money back, putting an additional load on Danowskyâ(TM)s law firm.
Since the Pirate Bay crew was provided with such clear, logical, and well explained methods for calculating the damages in the trial, an explanation on how the internet-fee was calculated is provided. Use the formula below, substituting anything anywhere, to check that the internet-fee really is 1 SEK.formel
[MATH DIAGRAM GOES HERE]
The name internet-avgift, as well as the layout of the site is based on tv-avgift and they layout of its site. Radiojanst, a state owned company, is responsible for collecting TV license fees in Sweden.
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Re:text (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Awesome (Score:5, Insightful)
Sounds like fraud and conspiracy to commit fraud. My guess is the TPB guys are asking for more fines and jail time.
I'd also be interested how it is that someone sending me some kind of wire transfer would obligate me paying the costs of that transfer. I could understand if I was running some kind of online service where you gave me your credit card info and my software then turned around submitted that information for billing. I can't imagine a law firm providing that kind of billing service.
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Re:Awesome (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not a wire transfer. It's internet banking, and in North America, the majority of banks charge businesses for transactions above whatever number they've paid to be able to accept, akin to going over your minutes on a cell phone. apparently, Sweden has a similar banking system. But I do agree, it sounds like fraud on the part of the people who give the payments and ask for them back. However, based on TPB trial, TPB people would be the one held accountable for the actions of others.
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Re:Awesome (Score:5, Insightful)
That depends on why they request that the payment be returned. If they wait until the conviction and fine are (hopefully) overturned, then the payment was indeed in error and they have every right to request a refund.
I do agree that this is a rather underhanded thing to do, but at the same time the contrarian in me thinks it's ingenious :)
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Re:Awesome (Score:5, Informative)
I don't know how the law works in Sweden, but in most English speaking countries fraud requires some element of misrepresentation and some means to benefit from that misrepresentation. You don't have either in this case.
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Re:Awesome (Score:5, Informative)
fraud
n. the intentional use of deceit, a trick or some dishonest means to deprive another of his/her/its money, property or a legal right.
Fraud [law.com]
Wikipedia is great and all, but please don't use it for legal advice...
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Re:Awesome (Score:5, Informative)
It's fraud in the US if you do it for gain. Example: You go to Walmart, buy a TV and call your credit card company telling them the TV was broken and walmart wouldn't take it back. They would do a chargeback on Walmart and that would constitute fraud.
It's not quite that simple in this case. If you contribute 1 SEK towards TPB's fine and then have to ask for it back later when(if) a retrial finds them innocent, that's hardly fraud. Not sure if it will work the way they're expecting though.
I know in the US, my understanding(IANAL) is that retailers are only required to accept $50 in coins for any debt. Sweden may have similar laws precluding this law firm from being required to accept payments below a certain amount.
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Re:Awesome (Score:5, Insightful)
So let me just make sure I understand this, because I was thinking along similar lines.
The guys behind TPB set up a service of dubious legality, publicly advocated using it for illegal purposes, went to court, and had a fine issued against them.
Now instead of taking their medicine, they have escalated from taking the piss out of international megacorps to taking the piss out of courts and legal firms.
Is this anything but outright denial and pride going before the fall? Does this end any way but the TPB founders becoming Bubba's bitch for a few years?
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Re:Awesome (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't use P2P but for everyone else I say go for it. Rob those bastards blind. Why? One sentence: Steamboat Willie is still under copyright. Think about that for a minute. That man has been worm food (or a Popsicle depending on who you believe) for a half a fricking century and yet his first work, one made when cars were started with a crank and antibiotics were just a crazy dream, is STILL under copyright.
Copyrights were a CONTRACT, nothing more. In return for a LIMITED copyright We, The People got a richer Public Domain. Instead they used outright bribery to corrupt our politicians and buy our laws away from us. So I say screw the thieving bastards. Let them rot. They used their money to steal our public domain away from us so if someone wants to steal from the thieves I say more power to them. I just can't be bothered because I honestly think their product is shit and isn't even worth stealing. But frankly expecting us to feel so sorry for those thieving bastards [wikipedia.org] is just pushing it too far. Put the copyrights back to the way they were for over a century and quit robbing our public domain!
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Re:Awesome (Score:5, Informative)
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Idiots (Score:4, Interesting)
Does Sweden have contempt of court?
Re:Idiots (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Idiots (Score:5, Insightful)
Bad justice or not, I'm contemptuous of people who think taking work product from anyone without compensation is a valid and moral way of correcting a bad business model.
A complete boycott of sales combined with no illegal copying would have a much greater significance.
Well then it's a good thing TPB guys didn't download anything. Maybe you should go after the actual copyright infringers? What's that? This may not be right but is easier? That's fine, just make sure your bribe is big enough to get your personal law enacted since that would be "good" business in your world as that's what's being done here.
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The argument of convenience (Score:5, Informative)
Well then it's a good thing TPB guys didn't download anything.
The ordinary meaning of infringement is "an an encroachment on the rights or privileges of others." infringement [merriam-webster.com]
In plain English, if you maintain a clearing house for the illicit P2P trade you are as guilty as the traders themselves.
This is not exactly a novel principle in civil and criminal law - and the geek might usefully ask himself if he really wants to see it eroded.
just make sure your bribe is big enough to get your personal law enacted...
I would like to introduce a modest compliment to Godwin's Law:
When the geek launches into a rant on the theme of bribery, all hope of intelligent discussion has ended.
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Re:Idiots (Score:5, Funny)
I'm contemptuous at everyone and everything. except a tuna sandwich.
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Re:Idiots (Score:5, Funny)
I'm a tuna sandwich, you contemptuous clod!
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Re:Idiots (Score:5, Funny)
I'm a tuna you insensitive clod!
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Re:Idiots (Score:5, Funny)
I'm an insensitive clod, you!
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Re:Idiots (Score:5, Interesting)
Perhaps you didn't read that the judge is drinking buddies with the prosecution? The judge belongs to several - uhhh - "fraternities" whose goal is to enrich the *iaa's of the world? Perhaps you missed the fact that a jail term was handed down for what amounts to a civil matter? Or, maybe the fact that this court (let alone the judge) has no jurisdiction over the servers? (I'm not certain whether the court has jurisdiction over the company or not, but the servers are definitely beyond the court's jurisdiction - I should find out where TPB is incorporated as a business)
I'm not savvy enough to explain a whole lot more, but, yes - this kangaroo court is so flawed and tainted that any lawyer in the world should be embarassed to even read about it. Everyone involved in the prosecution whored themselves out shamelessly.
Wrong country, wrong court, wrong judge, and most definitely the wrong complainants.
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Re:As seen on right here... (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Idiots (Score:5, Insightful)
No, a judge who was potentially biased, and had a previous professional relationship with a procescutor applied law in a way not previously applied before. That is why people believe it unfair. Frankly, I'd accept it if it had been a judge without those issues who'd given the verdict.
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Sure, pay in pennies. (Score:4, Funny)
Just remember they'll make you sit there while they count it.
Re:Sure, pay in pennies. (Score:5, Interesting)
This does not scare the unemployed college student :-)
I had a friend in grad school whose credit card company screwed up his billing to the tune of 56 cents. He turned on the TV, poured himself a drink, and sat on the phone talking (wasting the time of) various people for hours over days until they just gave him the 56 cents (they never admitted wrong doing).
I remember this because I visited his apartment on the second day of his quest and thought to myself: "He's still at this?". While he was on the phone, the TV cut to breaking news of OJ Simpson leading police on a chase in a white Bronco. The CC company gave up about the same time as OJ.
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Re:Sure, pay in pennies. (Score:5, Funny)
I had a friend in grad school whose credit card company screwed up his billing to the tune of 56 cents. He turned on the TV, poured himself a drink, and sat on the phone talking (wasting the time of) various people for hours over days until they just gave him the 56 cents (they never admitted wrong doing).
I remember this because I visited his apartment on the second day of his quest and thought to myself: "He's still at this?". While he was on the phone, the TV cut to breaking news of OJ Simpson leading police on a chase in a white Bronco. The CC company gave up about the same time as OJ.
So you mean to say the credit card company is still out there looking for the real overbiller?
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Re:Sure, pay in pennies. (Score:5, Funny)
Or he could have had, y'know, a landline.
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smart? (Score:5, Insightful)
I assume there's an equivalent of "contempt of court" over there, and probably that would let the firm on the receiving end sue for damages. Is this really the best time for them to be just digging themselves in deeper?
Are they working on the assumption that the Law and the Government are basically impotent?
(No, I did not RTFA. It's broken already.)
Paying in Pennies (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Paying in Pennies (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:Paying in Pennies (Score:5, Insightful)
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That's an interesting way to bankrupt a company. (Score:5, Interesting)
Now there's a flaw in our economy that's waiting to be exploited. Handling fees that are higher than the amount received, effectively draining the company of cash.
It would also drain resources and create massive amounts of paperwork. Even though the process may be mostly automated I'd hate to revise those books, assuming enough people had done this.
Kind of like a distributed denial of service attack.
Of course it's easily remedied by blocking all cash transfers under a certain amount. I guess you're not obliged to accept money, but still it'd cause some extra work. Probably not enough to bring any given company down, but an interesting thought nonetheless.
Re:That's an interesting way to bankrupt a company (Score:5, Informative)
"The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues.""
TPB are, obviously, not in the US and the law may well be different and paying in the equivalent of pennies might fall under some sort of "court's discretion to smack down raging assholes" provision.
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Re:That's an interesting way to bankrupt a company (Score:5, Informative)
There is no such limit [snopes.com].
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How can we help? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:How can we help? (Score:5, Funny)
^^^ Just my 2 cents.
Sorry, but you need 13 cents (USD) to help~
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Dumb Idea (Score:5, Insightful)
From TFA; "A friend of anakata told Blog Pirate"
Well, with that kind of authoritative inside knowledge, what could possibly go wrong?
Anyone who imagines this is a way to bankrupt a company, as opposed to just giving them money, is as dumb as this idea is. And any defendant who thinks that attempting to bankrupt the opposing party's law firm is a good response to losing their case... well, dumb doesn't go halfway far enough.
Re:Dumb Idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Just how many transaction do you think they'll allow to occur before the law firm, or more likely their bank, either closes the account to incoming cash, or more likely simply bounces all amounts under a certain figure? The bank is the one who would levvy this alleged 2 SEK fee, yet they have absolutely nothing to gain from playing along with this dumb game.
Just how stupid do you think the law firm and their bank is?
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Re:Dumb Idea (Score:5, Funny)
There's only one way to find out. /popcorn
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That's.... really not smart. (Score:5, Insightful)
TPB may have gotten themselves in trouble, and been convicted by a biased court, but playing silly games isn't going to solve any problems. Childish acts, even if committed by thousands of kids on the inernet, will never amount to more than a flea on the war machine that is corporate greed. They have an organized team fueled by money, and you've got pent-up angst fueled by living in your mom's basement.
Who do you think will win?
Re:That's.... really not smart. (Score:5, Interesting)
India got independence with actions like this. Farmers and fishers use it all the time quite successfully. The idea is simple: Make it unprofitable for others to oppose you.
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wtf? (Score:5, Interesting)
Didn't TPB appeal?
I know where they had the idaea from (Score:5, Informative)
There is that priest-radical in Poland, who is known as Father Rydzyk, and all young people hate him and his movement. So they decided support him by sending 0.01 PLN (about 0.003 USD) each. Lots of students did just that, each one paying 0.01 PLN.
The case was that Father Rydzyk's movement was having special deal with banks, that they were paying all fees for incoming money. So, for each 0.01 PLN paid in, they had to pay about 1 USD - now this where Swedish guys had the idea from!
Business Reply Mail works like that too (Score:5, Funny)
For some reason one of the british tabloids was running some kind of investigation where they encouraged members of the public to send in letters and artifacts protesting against gay rights. A few people i knew researched the royal mail freepost they had on their incoming address and realized it'd take any second-class mail package.
They sent them a broken washing machine.
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An Arrogant Obsession With Loopholes (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, this will probably work just as well as that other loophole TPB found - you know, the one that made TPB legal and untouchable in Sweden...
The more I read about the PB guys, the more they appear to be a bunch of arrogant bastards who want a blank check to do whatever they want. There is certainly enough wrong with copyright law in Sweden as it stands now, but this Internet mob mentality is not the way to go about it.
To sum it up, the law firm has been DDOS:ed, the lead lawyer have received threats, as has the head of Sweden's anti-piracy board - and now this. This may be just the stunt for TPB's fans, but if you're trying to reach out to the "other side", and I have, shit like this just makes it harder.
Thanks anakata, or whatever the fuck you want to call yourself, thanks for being a childish dork and fucking everything up.
Re:An Arrogant Obsession With Loopholes (Score:5, Insightful)
The more I read about the PB guys, the more they appear to be a bunch of arrogant bastards who want a blank check to do whatever they want. There is certainly enough wrong with copyright law in Sweden as it stands now, but this Internet mob mentality is not the way to go about it.
Then smart ass, what is the way to go about it? You see, every other idea you may have, have already been tried. When the politicians ignore the will of the people, civil disobedience is a perfectly valid method.
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Silly Rabbit (Score:5, Funny)
"Is there some other way I can pay you?" only works in pornos.
Rubbing wet sticks together to create a fire (Score:5, Insightful)
Interesting, how so? Not even clever by a mile. As I see it there are several flaws present.
First of, the firm and the bank can see that the transactions are not normal and can probably work out a deal to minimise the finacial impact.
Secondly, the bank (after being contacted by the laywers) can cancel/reverse all 1 dollar/sek/... payments to the account.
In both the above cases, assuming it is possible to do, it won't really affect the lawyers, but instead office workers at the firm and bank(s). So they are hassling people that have nothing to do directly with the MPAA/RIAA/etc.
And why should the firm even accept these payments anyway, they are not even from TPB. It seems very far fetched that they would even spend the time to process any of them. Most likely they will just box them up and store them away. Who knows, maybe they can even use it to show the character of the people running/using TPB in future cases.
All in all if you want revenge, go after the right target and in a fitting manner. This just makes Gottfrid Svartholm look like a giant douche bag to me, the MPAA/RIAA/... will not be affected by this at all.
Re:Something doesn't quite make sense, here... (Score:5, Informative)
Come again? Anyone who wants to "punish" me by sending me 13 cents, by all means feel free.
If 30 million people each pay one Sek, how does that not pay the fine? And does Sweden not have some sort of teeth to their court-imposed penalties whereby simply not paying means people go to jail?
There are these things called processing fees. The point is to send them an amount that is less than the amount it takes the process the incoming amounts and as such they use money on each transaction. This is pretty standard for services like Paypal or other internet money transfers.
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