Scanlation: Distributed Manga 347
IronicGrin writes "Just alerting you to a story I wrote for SFGate.com about the emergence of manga as a cultural and commercial force in the U.S.; in addition to discussing the fact that manga has begun to appear on national bestseller lists (volumes of Naruto and Rurouni Kenshin both cracked the USA Today Top 150), I also discuss scanlation communities--that is to say, distributed groups that use the Internet to translate and distribute as-yet unlicensed manga works--comparing this form of culture hacking to other open source development efforts. Do you think the comparison is apt? How many of you guys read manga (as opposed to watch anime), anyway?"
Donwload and Read (Score:5, Insightful)
I enjoy reading the manga after watching the anime myself, that way you get the little nuances and side stories in the manga that arent in the anime.
IP Theft != Open Source (Score:5, Insightful)
Please don't compare them. (Score:5, Insightful)
Not being able to read unlicensed work from other countries is a drag, and I don't particularly blame you for breaking the law when no-one is getting hurt. But it concidering how much FUD and confusion is already being spread by opponents of OSS, it really doesn't help for well-meaning people to muddy the waters with analogies like this.
Scanlatons vs. translations (Score:3, Insightful)
You can buy japanese manga and with translations you can read it. Yes it's a little less convenient, but at least authors get paid for their work.
Hmm...well.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Please explain to me.... (Score:2, Insightful)
From the moral standpoint, some believe that it's ok to distribute a fansubbed work until it's licensed in US, since this is the only way for people to access it (it isn't true - you can buy Japanese DVD/VHS and find scripts online for most of them). Once the shopw is licensed, the moral reationale is gone and distribution of fansubs becomes you plain vanialla piracy.
About the translation groups (Score:2, Insightful)
Fandom: The Barbarians at the Gate (Score:5, Insightful)
- or -
Yes, I still like Ranma 1/2
(blantantly stolen without permission from here [tripod.com])
It is an unfortunate fact about fandom, whether it be gaming fandom, anime fandom, or Linux fandom that it goes through stages:
1. Stage One: A small group of people discover something that they like and think is fun and interesting. They form clubs based on it, talk to each other about references from it and generally enjoy themselves. Often, they will be persecuted by people who don't get it, "You're into that?!? How can you be into that?!?!" they'll sneer as they pass you in the street, at school or at work. This is also the evangelism phase, you try to convince people to become involved in the thing you are into. "The more the merrier" is what you think at this stage. In some ways, this is the best stage of fandom. There is a lot you have to do by yourself and normally a dearth of commercial support, but it is exciting.
2. Stage Two: Some charismatic people become interested in what you like, unfortunately, leading the people who were sneering at you to think, "Oh! He's into that? Oh, maybe I misjudged it then..." (You'll see why this is unfortunate soon enough.) More support becomes available, so you don't have to do everything yourself. Instead of third generation fan-subs, for instance, commercial tapes become available. Maybe not the ones you want, but still, maybe good in their own way.
3. Stage Three: This is the transitional phase, your hobby becomes well known enough that the mainstream media picks up on it, usually portraying it as a weird and evil sub-culture. Of course, this causes it to appeal to bored mainstreamers who want to appear cool by taking on the establishment (until they grow up to become corporate lawyers and/or investment bankers, natch.) These are the people who start showing up at your AD&D club meetings and when you suggest a game of Call of Cthuhlu for a change, mock you. They don't mock you because they know anything about CoC , but because "the name sounds goofy, man." You start feeling resentful as they try feeding your sixth level magic user to a gelatinous cube, and in my case you stop attending group meetings.
4. Stage Four: Congressmen start talking about the evils of the whatever-it-is that you like, of course making it more cool among mainstreamers . Although the thing you like is more readily available now from a variety of commercial sources, it has been rendered palatable for the mainstreamers . All the rough edges are sanded off, and you get accosted by people who don't know that you used to be really into the thing who try to tell you how cool their bland, pallid version of the thing you used to love is. The barbarians are at the gate! People are overunning your hobby with the same predjudices they had back when it wasn't cool. They accost you at conventions and say, "You are into that!?! How could you be into that?!? This new is so much cooler than that. I wouldn't be caught dead being into that." Note: As always, you are not trying to force your tastes on anyone. In fact, because the quality of people you are meeting has declined so much, you try to identify the bad ones and just "smile and nod" as they pass you by. You are just trying to "live and let live," but the mainstreamers only want to appear rebellious, even though by their very nature they are conformists. Because of this, they will seek you out and try to force conformity on you, basically forcing you to hide your interests within a hobby from them the same way you used to hide your interest in the hobby from them.
5. Stage Five: Everyone is into your hobby now... but it's become so palatable and mainstream that it isn't recognizable as the thing you used to love. You've since moved on to other things. Soon after this, it becomes uncool and people start dropping it. You still like the old things that got you into it in the first place, but you no longer mention it to
Re:information wants to be free (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I just don't get it... (Score:4, Insightful)
If you have actually looked into the genre, saying that you "hate this stuff" and are convinced it all "looks crappy," isn't sufficient. What about it is crappy? What is it that you hate that is common to ALL manga?
Saying "manga looks crappy" is like saying "comic books are for kids." There's no way that they are all alike or share a single esthetic; there's far more variety in Japanese mass-market comics -- in artstyle, storytelling techniques, intended audience -- than in the US product.
Unless you can lend some further depth to your remarks, you are simply a troll.
Maybe the RIAA should, take a page... (Score:2, Insightful)
Sounds like a justification, for every illegal form of trading to have come forward to this point. Where I will not fault, the folks for scanning and redistributing copyrighted material myself (..owing to glass house syndrome.) Theft is theft. Do BSA members, and all other software companies, learn which of thier titles are most popular, or are they robbed of revenues? Recording Industry? Visual Media Companies?
Tin foil hats, ready (Score:2, Insightful)
If you're not selling your items in a certain area, does it really matter if there are pirated copies popping up in that area? It's not like it's cutting into your business if you're not even selling there.
Same goes for software, I say. If a company stubbornly refuses to release compatible software in other languages and devices, I'm all for people in those countries jacking up the software and making it work for them.
The only thing that's touchy with anime and other such things is that it COULD be slated for licensing and redistrubutors would be cutting into their revenue. In that case, I say nay.
But if a company says no to distribution in an area where there's demand, I'm all for consumers taking things into their own hands. Anime, software, and other forms of media are not expensive to reproduce. Technically, the "art" itself is non-existent - it's all just 1's and 0's on a computer disk or images pressed onto tape. Redistribution is harmless if it doesn't affect profits whatsoever while simultaneously spreading the art.
Companies who refuse to redistribute on their own while also refusing to allow others to redistribute in an area that does not cut into their profits are just being stingy. It's the equivalent of a kid refusing to let his little brother play with an action figure "just because," even though he's not playing with it either - it's just great entertainment gathering dust and not being sufficiently appreciated.
Now I'll probably be kidnapped by some secret military group controlled by big media, but I had to say my piece. Free the anime! Vive la revolucion!
copyright infringement != theft! (Score:4, Insightful)
Been listening to the boys from the RIAA again?
COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT IS NOT THEFT!!!!
It's copyright infringement. That's different from theft. It has a different name too, so as not to confuse people.
Re:Please don't compare them. (Score:2, Insightful)
The answer is simply that untill the series is licensed in the US, You won't find a US publisher who cares.. On the contrary, they actually benefit from the practice.
Without the fansub/scanlation community it's hard to say wether or not Anime/Manga would have even caught on in the US as it has in the first place. And when the series (if popular enough) does get licensed in the US, most scanlation sites will remove their version from public access as soon as they are informed.
It's like a free head-start for publishers. They can even gauge wether or not the series will succeed in the US based on its popularity on such sites.
I'm currently translating a series called OpenSesame on animewaves.net and I would absolutely love to see it licensed. Even though my translation would disappear, it would be more than worth it knowing that I just might have had a little hand in increasing the popularity of Manga in the US.
Re:I just don't get it... (Score:4, Insightful)
--
Evan "Artists? Being individualistic? Never!"
Re:Mainstream. (Score:3, Insightful)
Make it about young girls "developed" beyond their age. Girls will read it to empathise with the characters and/or fantasize about being them.
Boys will read it to look at their tits.
It works.
KFG
Re:Maybe the RIAA should, take a page... (Score:3, Insightful)
Scanlation is nothing more than a foreign manifestation of this same impulse, and the copyright owners have just as much reason to tolerate it.
Re:Tin foil hats, ready (Score:2, Insightful)
The only thing that's touchy with anime and other such things is that it COULD be slated for licensing and redistrubutors would be cutting into their revenue. In that case, I say nay.
But to expand, what I was saying was that if licensing IS already planned or being considered, I say nay. If the company says "No, we certainly will not be distributing this here," then I say go for it.
If there is no access whatsoever, then I'm all for the consumers creating access. If the companies exercise their right to limit access to say - movie theaters, then you have to accept what they give you or rally for another reasonable alternative (such as demanding more lax personal usage rights for digital music).
The only gray area for me in this issue is when it comes to "approved devices." Like if I buy a dvd, but the only dvd player I have is on my linux box, then I do feel I have a right to break copy protection to watch the movie I paid for. Same goes for file conversions of digital music that may not work on the portable music player you own. But as far as outright pirating a movie/music/anime because someone is too lazy, impatient, or ethically unsound to obtain it in a legal fashion - I say a big no to that.
Basically, being in the capitalist society that I'm in (Yay American gluttony!) I have to say that if it's someone else's creation, then you have no right to take anything from them that cuts into their profit. The only control you have is whether or not to purchase from them. But if it doesn't hurt their bottom line in any way, and if you're not doing any harm to the company or any individual, more power to you.
I think a fluid and flexible moral mind is definitely necessary when asking these questions. There are too many confusing aspects of technology and creative rights to have a definite standard of behavior.
Forget all of that. (Score:3, Insightful)
1) Absolute shit served up with a marketing blitz
2) A valiant effort that self-destructs mid run (possibly because they ran out of money after the marketing blitz)
3) The overlooked gems.
I'm sure it'd be easy to make a similar list for any number of product areas:
Popular music, Reality TV, Feature Films, Websites, Taco Bell franchises, celebrity-sponsored hair care product lines, etc.
Re:Maybe the RIAA should, take a page... (Score:2, Insightful)
Fanfic is original work that uses existing characters and settings. Pirate scans are a simple copying and redistribution of the original artist's work. Fanfic is fundamentally creative; pirate scans are not. It's the difference between writing a new Star Trek novel and photocopying one.
(Yes, translation is a creative act. Scanning a manga and pasting a translation over the original text is not.)
Comparing pirate scans to fan activity in the Japanese community is, frankly, insulting to the Japanese fans. Go and look at some Japanese fansites. Notice the absence of artwork copied from the original source material. Japanese fansites use original drawings done by fans--specifically because they respect the copyright of the original author.
Look at Doujinshi (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Donwload and Read (Score:3, Insightful)
The Anime/Manga community has a deep tradition of underground trading but they understand that the continued development of new Anime and Manga relies on people buying the shit. This mix of consumerism and grassroots effort is nothing like the OSS community, which, like it or not, shuns efforts to commercialize things and even resents them. I have never heard anybody say "It's a shame tha Viz is picking up Dragonball. I would far rather have my fan sub jpegs than any softback corporate shill manga," or "I'm sure that the Anime Industry Association of America will shut it down, here's a link from India."
Re:Fansubbers are NOT thieves (Score:2, Insightful)
Is it just me that sees the irony of this statement?
Like everything else, fansubbing groups are not black and white either. While there are groups who do respect licensing and US contracts, there are plenty of others who do not. And we're not just talking about AJ here (although, they're dead so can't release anymore), but there are others out there who do the same things. There are also cases where legit groups will leak releases (especially for series that got licensed before the last episode), etc. Aand since the pool of people who can actually do the fansubbing is reasonably limited, you see them moving between groups and projects pretty freely. Pretty much, fansubbing is a spectrum from those who are strict about licenses, to those who enjoy fansubbing licensed series to anger the companies.
The North American companies actually do try to "do" something about fansubbing groups. Last summer, Bandai contacted many groups about the fansubbing of Wolf's Rain, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex and Gundam Seed. All three were series that had previously been unannounced (except for maybe GitS), and Bandai squashed fansubbing of the series shortly after announcement. The same goes for Funimation and Full Metal Alchemist. The companies are well aware of the fansubbing community and are completely willing to use their lawyers.
As for the market, as anime and manga are becoming mainstream, there's less of a need for the translation services of fansubbing. Many North American companies have said that most new anime shows airing in Japan are licensed (usually in agreements before they even begin airing). Manga is pretty well marketed and pretty accessible at bookstores across the nation. The argument that "fansubbing creates more of a market" is much less valid now than it used to be, and many believe that the fansubbing community is a dinosaur that will soon be extinct.