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The 2005 Wired Rave Awards 151

smack-pot writes "March 2005 issue of Wired Magazine features The 2005 Wired Rave Awards announcements. The 15 categories include Films, Business, Science, Architecture, Medicine, Games etc. Some of the winners are Brad Bird for The Incredibles, Danger Mouse for The Grey Album, Burt Rutan for SpaceShipOne, and Pete Parsons for Halo 2."
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The 2005 Wired Rave Awards

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  • by Leroy_Brown242 ( 683141 ) on Friday February 25, 2005 @01:33PM (#11779034) Homepage Journal
    This years "Best use of glow sticks" award goes too . . .

    Oh, not that sort of rave?
  • Jon Stewart (Score:5, Insightful)

    by fraudrogic ( 562826 ) on Friday February 25, 2005 @01:34PM (#11779048)
    I don't know. iFilms is great and all, but I think Jon Stewart should have won for Television. He did something (and continues to) that no one else on major television stations would dare do, and that is be brutally honest and be intelligent about it. When it comes to those qualities, he's my hero. Oh and the humor aspect is pretty good too.
    • Jon Stewart is brutally honest about the media.

      Jon Stewart is NOT brutally honest about politics. He would be funnier if he made fun of all sides equally, but he is definitely biased towards the left and has admitted as much.

      The show is still hilarious, but only people that are biased towards the left think that Jon Stewart is brutally honest, politically...
      • He is biased towards the left because the right is in power, therefore they give him more material. There's precious little to ridicule the democrats about at the moment. We all know they're hopelessly bad at politics, but there aren't any specific foibles to poke fun.

        But if Kerry had won, you can be sure Stewart would be tearing him apart as well.

        He's even said as much if you've ever seen the amazing appearance of Stewart on that political talk show with the bowtie guy(CNN I think?)
      • Re:Jon Stewart (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Have you ever even watched the Daily Show? Virtually every episode since the elections has slipped in at least one joke about democrats sucking it up in the election, including making fun of Kerry directly and the party in general. Beyond that, what can he make fun of them for? They don't control enough to actually do anything stupid..
      • * Jon Stewart is NOT brutally honest about politics"
        * He would be funnier if he made fun of all sides equally, but he is definitely biased towards the left and has admitted as much


        Do these two statements necessarily contradict each other?
      • Re:Jon Stewart (Score:5, Insightful)

        by RatBastard ( 949 ) on Friday February 25, 2005 @02:25PM (#11779686) Homepage
        but he is definitely biased towards the left and has admitted as much.

        Explain to me how admitting to being biased makes him less honest politically? I'm really trying to make that work but it just doesn't wash. Not being "brutally honest about politics" would be him not admitting his bias. I've watched a lot of his show and he has never hidden his bias nor has he pretended to not be biased, like many cammentators/journalists/pundits who are biased towards the right.

        I don't know what word you want, but I don't think "honest" is it.

        • admitting to being biased makes him less honest politically? I'm really trying to make that work but it just doesn't wash.

          I think he's just following the party line and accusing "liberal media" of being "biased" and "dishonest".
        • Explain to me how admitting to being biased makes him less honest politically? I'm really trying to make that work but it just doesn't wash.

          Because his show routinely presents the right-wing in a bad light, and does not do as much on the crap from the left-wing. When he has left/right guests on, he routinely softballs the lefties, and asks pointed questions (well, for a daily show interview) of the right wingers.

          Yes, he presents the "fake news," but it would be funnier if it wasn't tainted with bias. The
          • His show routinely presents Mr Satan in a bad light, and does not do as much on the crap from the Angels. When he has devil/angel guests on, he routinely softballs the angels, and asks pointed questions (well, for a daily show interview) of the satanists.

            One comment only: Doh!
          • I think that when he asks the hard questions of the right it is because they wanted to get out in front a liberal audiance and explain their views.

            It is an adversarial stance, but they are still having fun, ad since people won't take it seriously they can have more freedom. I have never seen him cause anybody to lose their compasure, and he always has fun with them.

            The reason I say this seams planned is that the guests always seem happy to answer and even happy the question was asked. Also there are ple

      • Jon Stewart is NOT brutally honest about politics. He would be funnier if he made fun of all sides equally, but he is definitely biased towards the left and has admitted as much.


        You think he'd be MORE honest if he PRETENDED not to favour the left? If he acted in a way that hid his true feelings?

        He'd be more honest if he'd lie?
        War is peace. Freedom is slavery?
      • Yes he is funny, however when he does his show and then interviews farking *actors* about the movies they are coming out with, falling into the same old routine garbage that other "talk shows" or even variety talk shows have - makes me see that he is still a media tool.

        now, that said, last nights episode with christina ricci was fantastic. he called her "retarded" to her face and she didnt even notice.

        anyway - you can still seet that he isnt lifting the veil, only peeking under one corner.
        • He doesn't always get the top guests, but he's had some pretty serious people. John Kerry, John McCain, Madeline Albright, Bill Clinton, Thomas Freidman, just to name a few. Granted, since the election, the number of high power politicos has dropped, but he still has a pretty high signal-to-noise ratio.
    • Re:Jon Stewart (Score:5, Insightful)

      by PopeAlien ( 164869 ) on Friday February 25, 2005 @01:52PM (#11779264) Homepage Journal
      Uh yeah.. especially since it was Jon Stewart that helped boost iFilms page views. Jon Stewart creates tv content, iFilms simply distributes clips of it.. It seems a strange choice for winner of the 'television' category.
    • I understand why a lot of people like him, but -- cynicism is so cheap and we already have plenty. I just can't find it nearly as clever or daring as other people seem to.

      Exhibit 2: Danger Mouse

      WTF? The guy is the DJ equivalent of a Score: 1 Slashdot comment in an RIAA rantfest and he's the future of music? Jimmy Buffett's 82nd album was a bigger step forward for music in 2004.

      • Re:Jon Stewart (Score:3, Insightful)

        [Dangermouse] is the DJ equivalent of a Score: 1 Slashdot comment in an RIAA rantfest and he's the future of music?

        I'm guessing you haven't actually heard the Grey Album, or if you have you didn't like it for valid subjective reasons.

        But objectively, the album is a significant accomplishment. Not only is it the latest in a line of legitimate and coherent works of art built entirely on borrowed source materials, but it also brought an entire sub-genre of hip-hop -- eg, mash-up -- into mainstream conscio
        • OK, so it's significant conceptually. As actual music I found it to be quite disappointing. There are much better examples of mash music to be found.
      • I've got to agree and not only because I dislike rap and found the actual music to be relatively poor. Rather than create something actually new and original he merely reused other people's work to create a collage of sorts. At least Beatallica (Beatles songs transposed into Metallica songs) actually writes and performs their work.

        I feel that he instead garnered a great deal of attention for being the underdog in a legal contest about the rights to the music. Regardless of the quality he was going to be gl
    • As media personalities go, Jon Stewart holds about as much weight as a lifelong Usenet poster. He's self-deprecating, sarcastic, and likes to call people names when they mock him. Yet after all is said and done, people wish they could be like him.
    • Being "brutally honest and intelligent" is (a) highly inappropriate for a satirist and (b) not designed to make you popular with the people who hand out awards!
  • by ackthpt ( 218170 ) * on Friday February 25, 2005 @01:37PM (#11779078) Homepage Journal
    Inability to put characters in jeopardy?

    (resisting the joke about rendering Alex Trebek) I think anyone who says that is nuts, as nuts as the producers who need star-power to keep them warm at night. Bird just did the job right. There were some pretty insightful comments back in the Discworld movie topic, regarding writing a movie you can make. I become more a cynic when I read people's opinions that such and such can't be done. It's an illusion, dumbasses. Bird's gifted enough to take the intelligent approach. To see the wrong approach taken again, watch Tom Cruise in Spielberg's WoW. Or see a class act, the Pendragon version late March. Bug your theater to carry it! Hopefully it'll live up to expectations and make Wired's list next year.

    • I agree with most of your points, however, I wouldn't bash Spielberg's adaptation of War of the Worlds just yet.

      Atleast wait to see it before you do.

      I'm very happy for Brad Bird, I really don't think The Iron Giant got as much recognition as it should have. It's definately one of the better efforts put forth from an American Animation studio in a very long time.
      • however, I wouldn't bash Spielberg's adaptation of War of the Worlds just yet.

        Atleast wait to see it before you do.

        1) I'll bash it anyway, as it's about the martians, about the firey orange explosions, the goodlooking actor and his disfunctional movie family brought together very formulaically by the upheaval, etc. It'll probably be lots of eye-candy CGI, but that's probably where my enjoyment of it will end.

        2) From an early age it was always a dream, if I won a fat lottery pot I'd do a film true t

  • wow (Score:4, Interesting)

    by rd4tech ( 711615 ) * on Friday February 25, 2005 @01:39PM (#11779115)
    "Burt Rutan for launching the private space age"
    I for one, welcome...

    "Mark Fletcher for making bloglines the Internet's news network (RSS Reader)"
    Neat, now more people can autocreate blogs targeted for adsense...

    "Robert Lanza -for eye-opening work on embryonic stem cells"
    See your future, it's right here ...

    "Steven Squyres for keeping Spirit and Opportunity roving"
    Where is the rest of Nasa on this one??? But that's humanity, always picking up one who holds the stick

    The rest... boring, BTW there are also bunch of research in DNA, materials, and compsci which are changing the world arroung us constantly, why not mentioning anything of those fields?
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Who is this Pete Parsons fellow, and why are they giving him all the credit for Halo 2?

    As a longtime Bungie fan, my understanding is that Jason Jones is the man behind the curtain.
  • grey album (Score:5, Informative)

    by tsunamifirestorm ( 729508 ) on Friday February 25, 2005 @01:41PM (#11779132) Homepage
    for those who don't know, the grey album is a remix record using beats from the beatle's white album with vocals from jay-z's black album it's available at http://www.bannedmusic.org/ [bannedmusic.org] and is hosted by http://www.downhillbattle.org/ [downhillbattle.org]. DJ Dangermouse was the DJ who made this mix.
    • There are literally hundreds of remixes to jay-z's black album, including (and I couldn't make this up if I tried, they are all real) the pink album, the blue album, the purple album, the blacker album, the yellow album, the red album, etc. Imagine hundreds of dj's across the globe, taking the vocals to 1 album, then putting their own beats over them and naming the album the (insert color here) album and there you go. Alot of them suck, but some of them are pretty good, especially the grey album.
    • Re:grey album (Score:1, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      It also sucks.
    • I realize that a lot of /.ers are not big fans of hip-hop. Still, JayZ/Rocafella never tried to stop DM from distributing the album (to my knowlege). It's a common practice for major-label hip-hop artists to release mixtapes and other free content to their fans. 50Cent made his name from mixtapes, and many others have realized that these free albums are great marketing tools. Yes, a lot of people here hate hip-hop, but they've got to respect the copyright holder's generosity...and the fact that they enc
      • Re:grey album (Score:2, Informative)

        by Metapsyborg ( 754855 )

        I realize that a lot of /.ers are not big fans of hip-hop. Still, JayZ/Rocafella never tried to stop DM from distributing the album (to my knowlege). It's a common practice for major-label hip-hop artists to release mixtapes and other free content to their fans. 50Cent made his name from mixtapes, and many others have realized that these free albums are great marketing tools. Yes, a lot of people here hate hip-hop, but they've got to respect the copyright holder's generosity...and the fact that they encoura

        • Actually, DM did take an "X-Ecutioners" style approach to the album. I can't discern which songs from the White Album comprised the beats, aside from the mash-up of "What More Can I Say?". Admittedly, I'm not much of a Beatles/Rock fan, but I did buy the White Album to compare to DM's creation. Perhaps a hard-core Beatles fan would recognize the samples? Besides, this is a Wired award, not a Grammy. I think that the distribution method had more to do with the award than the album's artistic merit.
        • I do have a problem with a Dj winning an award for mixing together 2 over-hyped albums.

          Yeah, but "The Black Album" sucks and I hate the Beatles, yet "The Grey Album" is at the top of my most-played list. In other words, it is greater to (or at least different from) the sum of its parts.

          Dangermouse doesn't deserve jack for doin' something that could easily be replicated with a computer and some wavs.

          Okey dokey, you're obviously one of those people who goes to the museum and says, "I could have done
    • Re:grey album (Score:4, Interesting)

      by _ph1ux_ ( 216706 ) on Friday February 25, 2005 @05:26PM (#11781801)
      what about Skinny Puppy and Front 242 or Front Line Assembly...

      All three of these have contributed orders of magnitude more than this guy.

      Remix record using beats from the Beatles. How quaint.

      Skinny Puppy is the most sampling band ever (actually I believe they were surpassed by the other two I mentioned), front line assembly being extremely deft at it.

      and this was in the late 80's and early 90's.

      I love how all these genre's and youngins attempt to take credit now for doing things that Industrial pioneered 15+ years ago....
  • suspect statement (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Savatte ( 111615 ) on Friday February 25, 2005 @01:41PM (#11779142) Homepage Journal
    "Until The Incredibles, the conventional wisdom was that animators can't do action," Bird says.

    umm..anime?
    • I swear Animes are not suitable for most audiences. The last GREAT Anime I watched, that makes sense for Americans, was BattleAngel and Ninja Scroll. Everything else since has been dragged out episodes.

      • Sure, but that says nothing about whether or not animators can do action.

        While I'm posting, is it me or is The Incredibles incredibly overrated, compared to Shrek 1/2 and Toy Story 1/2?
        • I think it's you. I went into the Incredibles expecting another Pixar movie. What I got was an intelligent, witty, funny, sincere, and very incredible movie. It went above and beyond and was one of my favorite movies of the year. Judging by critical acclaim, I would guess that most people are with me on this one.
        • is it me or is The Incredibles incredibly overrated, compared to Shrek 1/2 and Toy Story 1/2?

          It's you.

          The Incredibles was an amazing movie, while the other four films you mentioned were merely darn good cartoons.

          Speaking of Animated action, the combat and flight sequences in "Last Exile" are second to none, IMHO.
        • by bitrott ( 232312 )
          How can you even put Shrek in the same category as Toy Story? Because of the graphics? PLEASE, people. Toy Story and The Incredibles are amazing movies because they're good stories told well because BRAIN came before cheap pop-culture references and lame, embarassingly lame visual gags.

          I've always maintained that Shrek doesn't even rate as a fine example of what animation is capable of, when 99% of the gags won't make sense to anyone in 5 years time.
          • While Shrek is not my favorite animated movie by far, I don't think you can say it will be wasted on an audience five years in the future. Shrek took the idea of fairy tale and composed a new frankenstein tale based on all the old ones. It was a traditional fairy tale in its simple moral, and in the way it wove contemporary culture into the story. In the end we can argue about how good it ended up being and how funny it was, but the kids that were in the audience with me loved it every bit as much as I l
      • Try Cowboy Beebop, Ghost in the Shell (including Stand Alone Complex), and Akira. 'nuff said.
    • Anime is considered by most of the world, and Hollywood in particular as nonconventional, and thus not to be taken into consideration.
      That reputation is changing of course, but it's still seen as fairly marginal.
      • by Golias ( 176380 )
        Anime is considered by most of the world, and Hollywood in particular as nonconventional, and thus not to be taken into consideration.

        It's too bad, because the fact that it's "nonconvetional" is the best thing about it.

        There will probably never be a TV show in the US quite like "Haibane Renmei."

        "Azumanga Diaoh" is the best comic fiction about kids since "Peanuts" was in its prime, with the possible exception of "Calvin & Hobbes."

        "Last Exile" is exactly what Lucas probably wishes his Prequel trilog
      • The problem is that Anime is not American, so it doesn't count as animation for Americans. They are very nationalistic in this kind of thing.
    • Anime has some great storylines, mindblowing ideas, and awesome still artwork. But for North American audiences, the animation just doesn't cut it. The framerates are way too low.

      Also, they suffer from goofy, cliched characters, but I guess that's a cultural foible - kind of like the cringe-inducing "humour".
    • ... and with a plot you can actually follow without needing to be a 5th level zen master? Characters that don't feel the need to scream constantly or act embarassingly? Action that is fluid (frame rate) REALLY kinetic, and imaginative? And wittier than Woody Allen to boot?

      You won't find these all in 99% of anime, and not all in the same movie at once.
      • Re:suspect statement (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Golias ( 176380 )
        Your comments reveal that you simply miss the point.

        The appeal of anime is a direct result of the fact that it's cheap to make. The low cost means it is a low-risk investment, which means that an Anime creator has far fewer studio pressures than somebody making a US movie or TV show.

        Like I said in another comment, "Haibane Renmei" could never be made for US television. Not because there's nobody writing for TV who's as smart as ABe, but because no TV writer or director has the power to realize a vision
    • It is mostly unimaginative, repetitive nonsense.

      A few masterpieces worth watching, that in general, funnily enough, are not action histories.
  • winners (Score:4, Informative)

    by Fox_1 ( 128616 ) on Friday February 25, 2005 @01:46PM (#11779196)
    The Rave Awards

    Film: Brad Bird [wired.com] : Business: Shigeyuki Hori [wired.com]

    Science: Steven Squyres [wired.com] : Medicine: Robert Lanza [wired.com]

    Architecture: Rem Koolhaas [wired.com] : Music: Danger Mouse [wired.com]

    Television: Blair Harrison [wired.com] : Blogs: Kevin Sites [wired.com]

    Books: Jeff Hawkins [wired.com] : Industrial Design: Burt Rutan [wired.com]

    Technology: Mark Fletcher [wired.com] : Art: Jennifer Kevin Mccoy [wired.com]

    Games: Pete Parsons [wired.com]

  • Halo was released in 2004?
    Will it never end? Pretty soon were going to have slashdot stories, about the slashdot stories on Halo 2.
    I await the flames, safe in the knowladge that I finished it on legendary and it still doesn't make my top ten. But maybe top 15? Geddit?
  • Halo 2? (Score:1, Troll)

    by sahrss ( 565657 )
    This may be a dupe post by the time I write it, but why would Halo 2 get an award? It seemed to me and most of the people I've talked to that it's just a slight improvement on Halo...and there was nothing revolutionary about the gameplay.

    Unless they're just focusing on the financial success:
    "Halo 2 made $125 million on its first day of release. By contrast, the biggest opening weekend in film history was Spider-Man, which netted a mere $114 million over three days."
    • Apparently the Halo 2 fanboys didn't appreciate your post.

    • Does anyone read the moderator guidelines anymore? F*ck. Halo 2 has better graphics and story, and some nice extras, but you're right there was nothing revolutionary about the game. However, the financial success is pretty impressive.
    • I agree with JaffaKREE and idsofmarch. sahrss' post is not a troll!

      In fact, most of the games mentioned aren't all that revolutionary. I thought Half-Life 2 rocked but it wasn't this huge improvement on the genre. Nothing mentioned about Halo 2 sounded all that kickass-ish. They're simply the natural evolution of games of late: better graphics, better sound, better physics.

      Out of all the nominees, Katamari Damacy sounds like the most unique game to be released lately. I haven't played it myself but the
    • Unless they're just focusing on the financial success:
      "Halo 2 made $125 million on its first day of release. By contrast, the biggest opening weekend in film history was Spider-Man, which netted a mere $114 million over three days."


      Of course that monetary comparison is valid, since we all know that movie tickets coast $50 each nowadays.

      Also, along with all these other fine replies, I agree that the parent is not a troll and is, in fact, making a valid point.
  • by sielwolf ( 246764 ) on Friday February 25, 2005 @01:53PM (#11779274) Homepage Journal
    I guess it's basic 15-second mainstream digestible keystone of mash-up'dom.

    Of course this is old as hip-hop itself. Dancehall exists on the idea of a riddim becoming popular itself and multiple deejays rap/sing over it. Now hip-hop, R&B and Reggeton artists get in on it. An example from '04: Pitbull "Culo", Mr Vegas "Pull Up", Nina Sky "Move Ya Body" and many others [unitysounds.com] all used the Coolie Dance Riddim.

    The pop culture clash of using a very recognizable outer-genre instrumental (the "mash-up") got big in clubs two years ago (making this Wire award a bit like John Wayne's Oscar). A popular one was Whitney Houston ("I want to dance with somebody") over Kraftwerk ("Numbers") forming ala Voltron to Girls on Top's "I Want to Dance with some Numbers" [overstated.net]. Nigh unreleasable due to copyright considerations but interesting none the less.

    Of course now MTV is in the Official Mash-up business by creating things that aren't Mash-ups at all (that Jay-Z and Linkin Park thing is, due to original parts by both artists, a collaboration).

    I still think Chopped and Screwed [screweduprecords.com] is going to hit the mainstream consciousness soon as T.I.'s disc just got the treatment and it sold amazingly. And kids are chop n' screwing all sorts of tracks now. Many on laptops and then distributed into the public conscious via P2P (so Wired could give it an award and be a bit ahead the bellcurve). Of course this is a decade old style too.
    • NOW they get in on it? What do you think remixes are? In fact, what do you call band and orchestra "arrangments"? This concept is nothing new, it's just being applied to a more modern form of music.

      Also, riddims only involve using the same beat with different lyrics. More originality is required to do this.

      As far as mashing up is concerned, it's essentially (this may be a little off topic but I threw it in anyways so fuckit) the same as playing a song with a different instrument than it was originally
    • What I think makes Danger Mouse so important is the fact that his album was never* released in the conventional channel, but still was in many critics best albums of the year lists. Its a pretty impressive feat to have an album that sold no* copies, and had no conventional advertisement was able to complete in the critics ratings. Pure word of mouth, and still look how huge the Grey Album became.

      That and the album itself is great, far better then the original Jay-Z album. I agree that there are be
      • I guess my issue was that re-producing The Black Album was something of a hip-hop production fad at the time.

        The motivation was part tepid reception to the beats on The Black Album but also to MF Doom rebuilding Nas' Nastrodomus (making Nastradoomus. Clever, eh?) and 9th Wonder redoing Nas' God's Son (God's Stepson). As Doom was big in the underground and the publicity of the Jay-Z/Nas feud, there was interest in the community to provide the counterpart to this Nas work.

        Of course both of those were orig
    • Screwed up clique for life!!

      Posts like this make me wish there was a music.slashdot.org
    • You have all of the facts and a good perspective on what we're talking about. (After looking at your journal, I realize I'm not the only one on /. who knows who Jazze Pha is).

      But consider this: The Beatles didn't do anything new. (Well of course they did, later, but stick with me). They bit all these black american blues artists. All they did was popularize it. Same thing is (more) true of Elvis. So, do they not deserve their recognition? Maybe you'd say no, but I think they do. The important thing
      • I guess we are having a conflict on what the scope of originality I'm having issue with. I'm below the cultural/racial level. Heck, I'm even below the deconstructionist level.

        If someone injects a level of originality into it, I'll accept it as an artistic achievement. Now the quality can be up for dispute. Elvis was sometimes no better than a cover band and that this was hidden is a real shame. But that is a bit different since the mash-up is musical deconstructionism that wears its influences right o
      • They bit all these black american blues artists. All they did was popularize it.

        Totally disagree. Lennon & McCarntey owe at least as much to Rogers and Hammerstein as they do to Elmore James. Also, the close-harmony singing of their early albums certainly did not come from the blues. It came from their own local music.

        Everything came from somewhere, but the Beatles at least built upon their influences to create things the world never heard before. Even their sound guys were doing things in radica
      • They democatized it, which is quite different.

        Before them "black music" for lack of a better name was constrained by its explicity etnicity. The original idea was to realize that it was good music on its own right and that it deserved a wider, more diverse, audience.
    • I've just got into "The Kleptones" [kleptones.com] thanks to taking a chance downloading a torrent of Yoshimi versus the Hip Hop Robots... fantastic mix mash... and their Night at the Hip Hopera is possibly a veritable classic of this field [typepad.com]...

      just one thing... Disney are doing their level best to suppress hosting of "A Night at the Hip Hopera"... [waxy.org]

      So get hold of it while you can...

  • I can't help but think of those who got left out--i.e. the rest of the members of the teams the highlighted individuals work with. Anyone else get the feeling that some of these awards should have gone to the whole team and the selection of a single individual was rather arbitrary?
  • by RatBastard ( 949 ) on Friday February 25, 2005 @02:02PM (#11779381) Homepage
    I prefer my Dangermouse to be animated and British, thank you very much.

  • Articles like this just make me feel like a big loser. :-( My life is one of squandered oppurtunity. I was one of the best and brightest when I was younger. What the fuck happened?

    Hey, I'm honest, at least.

  • Bloglines [bloglines.com] tilts my axis. RSS readers are cool, but I read from multiple computers. A single tracker is excellent. It also provides pretty good links to related feeds and has a few nice sorting features, such as sorting feeds by the number of unread entries.

Beware of Programmers who carry screwdrivers. -- Leonard Brandwein

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