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Television Businesses Media

The Rocky TiVo-DirecTV Relationship 219

Thomas Hawk writes "Phillip Swann's TV Predictions is out this morning alleging that before dumping their TiVo stock last year, Rupert Murdoch's DirecTV had made a pass at buying a controlling stake in TiVo. According to Swann, 'TiVo's top management did not like Murdoch's offer,' and Swann alleges that this is why you had a fallout between the two companies. As an interesting aside, Rob Pegoraro over at the Washington Post was out yesterday warning people to not buy an HDTV TiVo, as DirecTV will be changing their high-def signal later this year and that if you bought the HDTV TiVo that you might not be able to watch network TV in high def. As an owner of one of those expensive high-def DirecTV TiVos, I sure hope this isn't the case."
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The Rocky TiVo-DirecTV Relationship

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  • by winkydink ( 650484 ) * <sv.dude@gmail.com> on Monday April 04, 2005 @02:45PM (#12136139) Homepage Journal
    Mirrored links

    Thomas Hawk [networkmirror.com] writes "Phillip Swann's TV Predictions is out this morning alleging that before dumping their TiVo stock last year, Rupert Murdoch's DirecTV had made a pass at buying a controlling stake in TiVo [networkmirror.com]. According to Swann, 'TiVo's top management did not like Murdoch's offer,' and Swann alleges that this is why you had a fallout between the two companies. As an interesting aside, Rob Pegoraro over at the Washington Post was out yesterday warning people to not buy an HDTV TiVo [networkmirror.com], as DirecTV will be changing their high-def signal later this year and that if you bought the HDTV TiVo that you might not be able to watch network TV in high def. As an owner of one of those expensive high-def DirecTV TiVos, I sure hope this isn't the case."
  • it's true (Score:5, Informative)

    by skaeight ( 653904 ) on Monday April 04, 2005 @02:48PM (#12136175)
    Directv is switching to MPEG-4 encoding this year with the launch of the spaceway sats. I'm sure there will be a transition period so your HDTiVo should work for a while, but there will come a point where you will have to upgrade.

    A couple of good sites to find more info are:

    http://www.dbsforums.com [dbsforums.com]
    http://www.dbstalk.com [dbstalk.com]
    http://www.tivocommunity.com [tivocommunity.com]
  • Re:No problem. (Score:5, Informative)

    by pjbgravely ( 751384 ) <pjbgravely2@gDEBIANmail.com minus distro> on Monday April 04, 2005 @02:58PM (#12136287) Homepage Journal
    I live in a fringe area with no cable. I can get broadcast channels using rooftop $150 antennas and signal boosters. I got a HDTV tuner and now can see of the channels crystal clear, that is when they are broadcasting, most aren't full time yet. I am only 45 miles from one city but the hills really block the analog signal, while the digital gets through. It might be worth your while to try next year when most will be digital.
  • Re:When will they (Score:4, Informative)

    by Em Ellel ( 523581 ) on Monday April 04, 2005 @02:58PM (#12136288)
    personally, I still own a pair of Series 1 DTivos from about 5 years ago and they still work great - no plans to upgrade any time soon. You do not HAVE to buy a new device of any sort every 6-18 mos, you WANT to. Do not confuse the two.

    -Em
  • Yes it is true (Score:5, Informative)

    by doormat ( 63648 ) on Monday April 04, 2005 @03:01PM (#12136311) Homepage Journal
    DirecTV will be moving to a 8PSK signal modulation system and to MPEG-4 for HD for the SpaceWay satellite system, both of which are incompatible with the HD DirecTivo. You'll still get the old HD channels broadcast over the older satellites (Ku band, QPSK and MPEG-2), but none of the new fancy stuff (Ka band, 8PSK and MPEG-4).
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 04, 2005 @03:05PM (#12136340)
    As DirectTV [directv.com] is moving forward on changing to Advanced Video Codecs (AVCs) [wikipedia.org] such as H.264 [wikipedia.org] the current HD [wikipedia.org] Tivo [tivo.com]s will become obsolete as they can only recieve the current encoding of MPEG-2 [wikipedia.org]. Sorry, but tis true. I also doubt that Tivo will make an update to the MPEG-2 HDs to recieve the new codec [wikipedia.org]. Also, I have heard that DirectTV is moving to the DVB-S2 [wikipedia.org] transmission [wikipedia.org] standard [wikipedia.org] from their current DVB-S [wikipedia.org]. Extra information and/or signal strength [wikipedia.org], their choice.
  • Re:When will they (Score:3, Informative)

    by jlaxson ( 580785 ) <jlaxson@NoSPaM.mac.com> on Monday April 04, 2005 @03:05PM (#12136349) Journal
    And there are multiple types of streams from the Satellites, plus ATSC from the OTA tuner. DirecTV is rolling out MPEG-4 for new HD channels, which the current HR10-250 currently can't deal with. And you do have to buy a new one every 6-8mo if you're doing HDTV Satellite. I just had a HR10-250 (my first Satellite system ever) installed today. They sure as hell better offer a cheap upgrade path.
  • They're doing both. (Score:4, Informative)

    by raygundan ( 16760 ) on Monday April 04, 2005 @03:14PM (#12136441) Homepage
    The first thing in MPEG4 will be HD locals, which you don't have now, so you won't really be losing anything. Up next will be the existing HD channels, and that's where you'll feel the first loss. The real kicker is when the full MPEG4 transition occurs-- this is where you're going to lose all your non-HD channels.

    It's likely that they will offer you a replacement box (although this is just me speculating) for free or at a steep discount, since those of you with the HD-Tivo are highend customers. Unfortunately for the Tivo faithful, it won't be a Tivo.
  • Re:cablecard (Score:2, Informative)

    by hazman ( 642790 ) on Monday April 04, 2005 @03:26PM (#12136559)
    Bzzzzt...

    There is no FCC mandate of HDTV content. The FCC has asked nicely, with a cherry on top, that broadcasters produce and deploy HDTV in hopes that the 15% of the US population that currently receives their TV content from NTSC broadcasts would go out and get a shiny new digital TV that can recieve and decode the mandated ATSC digital broadcast signal and the HDTV feature in supposed to entice that portion of the population to do so.

    Note: Those broadcasts are not required to be HDTV. They can be SDTV (480 interleaved @ 30fps) like current NTSC signals. EDTV (commonly 480 progressive @ 30fps) or HDTV (720p@60fps or 1080i@30fps). The broadcasters can choose to transmit 4 or 5 SDTV streams or one HDTV stream on their bandwidth allocation. It's their choice.

    The FCC has mandated a transition to ATSC from NTSC. The FCC has mandated ATSC tuners in television sets for sale in the US. The FCC has NOT mandated HDTV.
  • Re:cablecard (Score:5, Informative)

    by Lumpy ( 12016 ) on Monday April 04, 2005 @03:34PM (#12136643) Homepage
    you are a fucking liar.

    the Cable companies do NOT hate the cablecard. It's motorola, Scientifica Atlanta and Jerrold as well as other sattelite and Catv headend gear makers.

    all of them REFUSE to follow any standards and intercooperate to ensure headend and plant lock-in on cable companies. If you are an all motorola cable company you haveto throw away EVERYTHING to use any SA gear. Motorola Loves that. SA does the same damn thing.

    the cablecard gives up the monopoly of locking in the cable companies to a single vendor for their headend gear.

    the rest of the world uses a single standard... the US has several that are bastardized by each equipment makes to ensure there is no interoperability.

    so take your cabletv company hating LIES and go elsewhere.

    if you want cablecard to exist then tell Motorola to quit fighting it as well as the other equipment makers.

    if they ran the damned DVB standard like the rest of the world this all would be a non issue.
  • by ac3boy ( 638979 ) on Monday April 04, 2005 @03:46PM (#12136769)

    Here is the rumored trade-in plan to get the new HMCs. It is very generous but I hope they stick to it.

    HMC Cost update.

    Latest info:

    Two base (HD HMC) units with different capacity.

    1) 240 GB - $499 + $99 for SD units and $199 for HD remote units
    2) 480 GB - $599 + $99 for SD units and $199 for HD remote units

    Trade in Values:

    HD-TiVo -> High capacity unit + 2 HD remote units
    SD TiVo -> Low capacity Unit + 1 SD remote unit
    SD Receiver -> Low Capacity unit and 1 SD for every three (3) SD receivers.
    It's basically a price match. For example, if you have two SD TiVo's and an standard HD unit, you can obtain the High Capacity + 1 HD remote unit in exchange.

    Values on units for trade in:

    Standard SD Receiver - No value for HMC - 1 for 1 on SD remote units
    Standard HD Receiver - Low cap HMC or 1 HD Remote unit
    1 TiVo - Low Capacity HMC + SD Unit
    2 TiVo - High Capacity HMC + SD Unit, or High Capacity + SD Unit

    Dollar Value:

    SD Receiver $99
    HD Receiver $399
    TiVo $199
    HD TiVo - $899

  • Re:cablecard (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 04, 2005 @04:16PM (#12137123)
    I think that is the whole point. You rent a cable card (or maybe buy one) from somewhere so you use the TV's internal tuner as opposed to some external box.
    But you lose some features like the onscreen menu guide, video on demand, and ppv stuff because the card can only receive and decode the information and can't send anything back to the head end.

    At least that's what a quick google search seems to indicate. (It also mentioned that TiVo was going to release a cable card compatable DVR in one of the results)
  • by swb ( 14022 ) on Monday April 04, 2005 @04:21PM (#12137176)
    Last I heard, no CableCard Tivos until 2006, which is idiotic. Rumor has it that a rev to the CableCard spec to make it somewhat saner (and more desirable to end-users) is why, but I still think it smells like either (another) bungle by Tivo or cable stalling, or both.

    I can't see why CableCard would help with satellite systems, since you can make the argument that the satellite signal format is a function of competitive advantage (channels, dish sizes, etc).

    The real reason is that both Dish and DTV want their systems as incompatible as possible, as it is a barrier to migration to the competitive product.

    I do like the idea, though, of an uber-smart 'cablecard' enabled Tivo that can tune digital cable, DTV and Dish simultaenously (presumably with two, self-aiming dishes).

  • Re:cablecard (Score:4, Informative)

    by The Vulture ( 248871 ) on Monday April 04, 2005 @04:33PM (#12137371) Homepage
    Not the best way to start off a post, but you are correct. It's Motorola and SA (Scientific Atlanta) playing the game.

    However, at the same time, cable operators are afraid of CableCard. The advantage of freeing them up to use any frontend that they want also scares them. At least by forging a relationship with Motorola or SA, they can get their boxes branded and control the content. With CableCard, anybody can make a set-top box, with no branding, no advertising lock-in, and no guaranteed content protection.

    What I would really love to see is a PCI card that accepts a CableCard, which can be used to decrypt the digital cable content. Not so that I can spread the shows around the Internet, but so that I can use the features of my MythTV machine. (Yes, the content has to be decrypted for MythTV to really make any use of it, otherwise the PCI card has to have video out. MythTV would still lose the OSD feature, and it would be harder to configure.)

    Microsoft might be the closest ally on that, since they'll need a way to capture digital cable content for their Media Center platform (if they wish to continue that).

    -- Joe
  • Re:DirecTivos suck (Score:3, Informative)

    by CatOne ( 655161 ) on Monday April 04, 2005 @04:34PM (#12137375)
    Right, you can't get Tivo2Go or the home media option.

    On the other hand, you can run dual tuners, which is HUGE. And you can download schedule data from teh satellite instead of having to keep the phone chord plugged in, if it's not a convenient run.
  • by RzUpAnmsCwrds ( 262647 ) on Monday April 04, 2005 @04:48PM (#12137566)
    Ka band - It's a higher-frequency band that's currently far more open than the lower-frequency Ku band. It allows for higher-bandwidth satellite transmissions.

    8PSK - A new modulation system that allows 3 bits to be represented instead of 2 with each sample. PSK uses the phase of the signal to encode data. QPSK uses 4 different "levels", 8PSK allows 8. This also translates into higher-bandwidth.

    MPEG-4 - A new encoding system that provides better picture quality with less bandwidth.

    So, what does this mean?

    SPACEWAY, DIRECTV's new satellite family (there are 2 in-space satellites plus a third to be launched later), combined with the new band, new encoding, and new modulation will allow the holy-grail of satellite broadcasting: HD Local-Into-Local.

    By FCC law, DIRECTV can't transmit local stations to subscribers who live in a different designated market area (DMA). A person in Denver can't get channels from New York, for example.

    Currently, DRIECTV transmits local channels in pretty-lame-quality SD. There are almost 1500 high-power broadcasters in the US, so it's a tough job to cover them all.

    SPACEWAY has a lot more bandwidth. That means that DIRECTV will be able to carry *all* of the local channels in the US in HD.

    It's a long road, as DIRECTV has 13 million customers. Replacing all of those boxes will take a long time. It's probably reasonable to assume that DIRECTV's Ku-band services will continue at least until 2010, if not longer.

    So, what does this mean for the HD-Tivo user?

    - You will continue to get what you get now for a good long time

    - You can still recieve and record HD locals off the air

    - You will need a new dish, new multiswitch, and new recievers for HD locals off the satellite

    Also interesting is Echostar's ("Dish Network") response to SPACEWAY. E* is purchasing Rainbow DBS ("VOOM"), which will give them plenty of room for national HD channels. Even with VOOM and their current satellite arsenal, though, E* has nothing to really compete with SPACEWAY. E* will have to launch one or more new Ka-band satellites in the next few years if they want to stay competitive with DIRECTV.
  • It is true (Score:2, Informative)

    by WindowLicker916 ( 704800 ) on Monday April 04, 2005 @05:22PM (#12138004)
    I'm a DTV installer so I'm aware of all the changes to come. Yes you will have to get a new HDTivo, HD receivers, and possibly even new standard receivers. I am not aware though if they plan on charging people for the equipment or replacing it all for free. I'de imagine that they would replace it for free though. figuring most people would say screw that and goto a competitor for their tv needs. I for one can't wait for their new satellites to be up and running! It's going to increase work for me, and it's going to help drive down prices on HD receivers. HD receivers go for about $300-400 right now. I'de easily imagine they will drop to around $100 or even be free. DTV is going to want to make a major push on its new HD services.
  • Re:it's true (Score:3, Informative)

    by mr_zorg ( 259994 ) on Monday April 04, 2005 @05:24PM (#12138031)
    Most of the HD channels currently on DirecTV aren't worth a damn anyway so no real lose. The regular sat channels will not be changing, AFAIK, and the OTA functions of the HDTiVo will still work.
  • Re:cablecard (Score:3, Informative)

    by Lumpy ( 12016 ) on Monday April 04, 2005 @06:09PM (#12138462) Homepage
    That is the bigest point. The suppliers INTRENTIONALLY obfuscate and tweak the "standards" to create massive lock-in. Yes everyone, I did not start out the post on a good note, and apologize to everyone about it, but I am sick and tired of people making things up and passing it off as fact. Almost everything the main post I origionall responded to is a lie. the FCC did not mandate HDTV, the cable companies do not hate the cablecard, these are all the current industry FUD and lies that are going around everywhere and espically on the AV forums on the net.

    I have several friends in the Cable TV biz, they all DESPERATELY want the cablecard to become a reality. They want the FCC to force a standard down the throats of these Digital headend equipment makers because they refuse to do it themselves because they will not be able to sell a $75.00 converter box for $500+ at lots of 10,000+ the digital cable box is one of the BIGGEST moneymakers for motorola and SA. The DOCSIS standard was the very first steps taken by the cable Tv industry to stand up to the companies like SA and Motorola.

    If it was not for DOCSIS and the cable companies banding together to effectively force the equipment providers to play ball (it also helped that there were lots of little players happy to get in on the game.... it's the same in digital TV recently, look up "cherrypicker" on google for one example.) then cable modems would still be a rent-it only item with the horrid bitrates from 3 years ago.

    I just wish that the FCC would give other companies the nod and certification to make headend and cable gear, some healthy competition from elsewhere might make the big equipment makers pay attention and settle on a real standard.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 04, 2005 @09:39PM (#12140007)
    Obviously you are not following the conversation. We are talking about DirecTV, here in the USA. It does not matter that NDS has a PVR for Sky in the UK. It does not have a PVR for DirecTV here in the USA, and the NDS PVR is way behind schedule.

    If DirecTV does not renew and expand its relationship with TiVo, they are idiots - or rather, Murdoch is.

It's a naive, domestic operating system without any breeding, but I think you'll be amused by its presumption.

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