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Comments: 188 +-   Putting Canadian Piracy in Perspective on Thursday July 12 2007, @05:36PM

Posted by Zonk on Thursday July 12 2007, @05:36PM
from the those-canuck-bandits-will-get-you dept.
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An anonymous reader writes "Over the past year Slashdot has pointed to many industry claims and governmental pressure over Canada piracy issues. Canadian law prof Michael Geist has produced Putting Canadian 'Piracy' in Perspective, a video that demonstrates how the claims are hugely exaggerated. For example, it shows how despite the MPAA's claim of movie piracy, Canada was the industry's fastest growing market last year. Similarly, while the recording industry says Canada is the world's top P2P country, the data shows that the Canadian music industry is experiencing record gains and that most of the decline from the major labels is due to retail pricing pressures."
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  • So ... in other words ... (Score:5, Funny)

    by ScrewMaster (602015) on Thursday July 12 2007, @05:39PM (#19843727)
    the media companies are lying to us.

    That's a huge surprise.

    • Re:So ... in other words ... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Original Replica (908688) on Thursday July 12 2007, @05:50PM (#19843835) Journal
      It might be lying or it might be delusion, it's probably both. The music giants are falling, but they don't understand why. They got rich running things a certain way, and they are still running things that way, but now they are losing money. They are desperate to find a reason for this that still allows for their huge paychecks. If they could charge $25 for a CD in 1997 why are people saying that's overpriced in 2007? It must be the pirates. if they aren't stealing the music why do they care if it's copy protected? They must be pirates.

  • Canada . . (Score:5, Funny)

    by Chikenistheman (992447) on Thursday July 12 2007, @05:45PM (#19843793)
    . . . Living the American dream.

  • A bit offtopic (Score:5, Interesting)

    by jawtheshark (198669) * <slashdot AT jawtheshark DOT com> on Thursday July 12 2007, @05:48PM (#19843819) Homepage Journal

    Years ago, I found my sister buying Audio CD-Rs. I asked her why she bought those to burn her music, after all a normal CD wouldn't make a difference and the Audio CD-Rs were more expensive due to the levy of the music industry. Turned out she didn't know that data CDs could be used to copy music. I explained her that the only reason Audio CD-Rs exist is for non-computer burners and that she pays a "tax" by buying those.

    The reaction was: Hey, that's cool... because of this tax my pirating is legal

    Now aside form how true that statement is, my sister is an actual music lover and now that she is employed, she is in the process of buying every single CD she copied (and liked, of course) in her student years. Did I mention that she's an audio engineer now?

  • Finally we have proof (Score:5, Insightful)

    by CastrTroy (595695) on Thursday July 12 2007, @05:49PM (#19843827) Homepage
    Finally, we have proof. Ok, not really proof, but here's some data to back up what we've been saying all along. Piracy is not the opposite of a healthy media marketplace. It actually helps to improve the market place. Piracy gives people better access to media that they would otherwise not get to see. They see it, and sometimes buy a legitimate copy. Many times they don't buy a legit copy, but if they never knew about it in the first place, then you can guarantee that they aren't going to buy it.

  • Exchange rates... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by going_the_2Rpi_way (818355) on Thursday July 12 2007, @06:02PM (#19843949) Homepage
    Unfortunately I was unable to view the video at work, however it's worth noting for those that may not realize it that even a Canadian 'market' with no growth at all is probably almost 10% larger this year than last, when valued in U.S. dollars, by virtue of the change in exchange rates.

  • Obligatory... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Tarlus (1000874) on Thursday July 12 2007, @06:04PM (#19843957)

    Putting Canadian Piracy in Perspective
    Yaaarrrrr, eh? *Runs away*

  • A Public Relations Ploy (Score:3, Informative)

    by BillGatesLoveChild (1046184) on Thursday July 12 2007, @06:19PM (#19844047) Journal
    It's all RIAA/MPAA-manufactured crap to convince shill politicians to pass pro-MPAA/RIAA laws. Here's a story published in Australia yesterday accusing it of the same thing:

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/digital-music/pirates-l ike-us/2007/07/11/1183833529685.html [smh.com.au]

    China has the right idea. Keep a steamroller mothballed, ready to pull out for the bi-annual "Drive over some CDs" Show.
  • So this is why most of music releases are being overcompressed to the hilt. Producers are trying to match the Canadian records' gains!
  • The record and movie industry in my view in their attempt to control "all culture" at the same time have basically been shooting themselves in the foot. Im a perfect example, I dont have time to listen to the radio anymore so I download podcasts then listen to them when I get the time. Thhe media companies have restricted music to such a degree on podcasts that I now dont have a clue what the latest music trends are. If your name or brand or your product isnt being hear or seen by the consumers your dead in

  • Media Tax (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Propaganda13 (312548) on Thursday July 12 2007, @06:35PM (#19844167)
    I thought Canadians were already paying media tax on blank media (cdr, hard drives, etc) to make up for piracy. In that case, you should be able to pirate in Canada. Otherwise, CRIAA is just making money off you for no reason.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by phatvw (996438)
      Its actually a levy, not a tax. Tax implies a payment to the Government whereas a levy is a payment accepted by the government on behalf of a 3rd party. I know, its kinda dumb.

      More info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_copying_levy [wikipedia.org]

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by FreeKill (1020271)
      It's true! The tax is something like $0.21 a CD/DVD and I believe that portable music players like ipods are also taxed. The tax rakes in a huge amount of cash too, something in the neighborhood of $150 million a year. That's equivalent to roughly $5.00 a year per Canadian citizen. I also believe the amount they take in is quite a bit more than the estimated losses due to piracy, but I am not 100% sure on that...
  • I'm glad I RTFA this time around. I'm headed to Vancouver in a week, and I had been wondering what sort of measures I need to take against all these swashbuckling Canucks. Thankfully, it seems the problem is smaller than anticipated. Still, I wonder why the customs agent kept saying "Yarr..." during our phone conversation.

  • Canadian subsidies (Score:5, Informative)

    by MushMouth (5650) on Thursday July 12 2007, @06:51PM (#19844319) Homepage
    Don't forget that canada has a whole lot of controls to make sure that the canadian musician gets more airplay, and has more subsidies than they do in the US (The government will sponsor your tour, and the radio must play X% canadian music). Sadly due to the polarization of the US culture such grants can't really be given. I can already hear the howling from the bible belt if someone like Stephan Merritt received a subsidy for 69 Love Songs, let alone someone like Ludicris, or from San Francisco if Amy Grant were granted cash for one of her bible records.
    Also the current crop of Canadian musical talent/popularity (not necessarily the same thing) is higher than it has been at any time since Rush, Loverboy, and Gordon Lightfoot stopped making records (at least south of the border, I don't know what is going on North of it, other than everyone likes The Tragically Hip and Sloan).
    Some bands that have taken off in the past few years include, but are not limited by (mostly of the "indie" variety, and in SF will sell out at least a 1000 seat venue)....
    • Arcade Fire (Currently HUGE, although not as canadian as they would like you to believe, as the main songwriter is from Texas, and they recorded their first record at his grandparents summer home in midcoast Maine, but they still qualify for subsidies)
    • Broken Social Scene (also include many of their side projects other than those listed below)
    • Feist (she is a part time member of above, and is currently selling out her US tour)
    • New Pornographers (also members A.C. Newman, and Destroyer)
    • Stars (big last summer)
    • Metric (big last summer)
    • The Dears
    • Wolf Parade
    • The Constantines
    • Death From Above 1979
    • Tegan and Sara
    • Nickleback (while I don't know what they sound like, they do seem to be on HDNet all the time)
      On top of that there are another slew of bands quite popular up there, (they can actually make a living playing music) that rarely make it down here.

  • Canada No. 1? (Score:5, Informative)

    by MikeHunt69 (695265) on Thursday July 12 2007, @07:08PM (#19844427) Journal
    Canada is number 1 for piracy? Funny thing is, a couple of days ago the Australian media ran a story [theage.com.au] that ranks Britian 1st, Australia 2nd and the US is 3rd in online piracy. And I personally think that none of those countries could hold a candle to some of the eastern countries - china/thailand/etc. Maybe that's a new strategy!

    Step 1 : Get the local media of each country to tell the people that they are the worst pirates in the world
    Step 2 : ??
    Step 3 : Profit!
  • >Similarly, while the recording industry says Canada is the world's top P2P country

    Since I paid those starving musician wages when I purchased blank cd's to backup my photos and my server data I sure as hell will be downloading LEGALY all the music I find worth downloading.
  • There is so much better music imo from independant and small labels and musicians that I don't have time to listen to or even consider buying almost anything from the companies that make up the RIAA.

    There's an entire internet covering an entire planet of millions of talented musicians who would be ecstatic over the idea of you downloading their mp3s and listening to them completely for free.

    I am going to stick with the people *want* me to hear their music.
    • I hope you choose to download bands/musicians who make it totally clear that they want you to download their work and not "guessing" their intentions. (and claiming that their label forces their hand, that don't count, most of these guys still have a sampling, and are free to record stuff on their own dime for you to download)
      • I actually spend a lot of time on sites dedicated to making music, and the musicians there regularly post what they have made, and so do I.
    • I'm replying to myself here, but you have no idea how satisfying it is to really like a track, and be able to add that person to your friends list on some site, or write them an email telling them they kick ass and end up getting a grateful reply back.


      Not every act can be small, and cost $10 if they have a million fans and put on an expensive and amazing show. An artist's ability to get big like that will grow as their fans and their career grows. This being 'discovered' or 'assembled' by the music i
  • We all know from past news stories that, according to RIAA/MPAA, having 4 32-speed CD burners actually equates to having 128 CD burners, so...

    1. Population of the USA: 295,734,134 (July 2005 est. (CIA World Factbook)).

    2. Population of Canada: 32,805,041 (July 2005 est. (CIA World Factbook)).

    3. Ratio of Canadians to Americans: 1:9.015.

    Therefore, according to standard RIAA/MPAA accounting practices, every act of Canadian piracy equates to over 9 acts of American piracy.

    Now you know why they're so damned worried about Canadian file sharing...
  • > For example, it shows how despite the MPAA's claim of movie piracy, Canada was the industry's fastest growing market last year. Similarly, while the recording industry says Canada is the world's top P2P country, the data shows that the Canadian music industry is experiencing record gains...

    So how is any of this exclusive of each other? Canada could be experience a quickly growing market and rampant piracy and it could be the top P2P country while enjoying strong sales.

  • Powerpoint Alert (Score:3, Funny)

    by pkulak (815640) on Thursday July 12 2007, @07:53PM (#19844687)
    Unless I get popcorn at my next meeting, that wasn't a "movie".

  • hypocrites I tell you (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 12 2007, @08:59PM (#19845047)
    Enough.

    Why does the slashdot community continually support this criminal BS of pirating music and slamming more than the RIAA's tatics, but even their right to protect their intellectual property? When did theft become cool? Oh ya, I remember. From the first time I heard about it, I thought Napster's rampant copying and theft was not cool and revolutionary, but more like the punk ghetto kid who suddenly became popular with everyone - by selling drugs. It's ridiculous.

    If you do not think that THEY have a right to keep you from copying and YOU have no right to copy, at least in the U.S. then perhaps you have forgotten that our most fundamental law states that Congress has the authority "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries." YOUR interpretation of this is not relevant so I don't want to hear it. Only the Supreme Court's is, and if you have a problem with that, good luck with your constitutional amendment or revolution.

    On the other hand, if you are going to advocate socialism, please be consistent. There are a lot of software developers here. How do you expect to make money if everyone copies your work? Are you going to make money on product support? Tell me, how much money have you spent on product support in the last few years?

    If you have a problem with the RIAA's tactics, fine. I do not have a problem with the articles and the outrage. But what point is this article trying to make? It's easily refuted with one simple counterexample which is self evident: China.

    The slashdot groupthink on this subject is off the charts. A lot of folks here could benefit from a realistic and balanced discussion that properly respects the right of others to protect their property and the right of government to implement public policy according to properly established authority as provided by the people.

    • Re:hypocrites I tell you (Score:4, Insightful)

      by arkhan_jg (618674) on Friday July 13 2007, @03:02AM (#19846557)
      Slavery was once perfectly legal in the US. Not that I'm comparing slavery to indefinite extension of copyright terms ; I'm pointing out that just because its a law does not mean its a just or fair law that should be supported. Rosa Parks is another example where an unjust law was challenged and eventually defeated by public flouting of it.

      A lot of folks here could benefit from a realistic and balanced discussion that properly respects the right of others to protect their property...

      Thats your mistake right there. Copyrighted material is not property. No matter how many times people like you say 'intellectual property' it doesn't make it true. Copyrighted works are in the public domain* - its just that for a limited time, in order to get more material into the public domain, authors are supposed to have a limited exclusive time of distribution. Its NOT ownership of property, it never was - ideas, stories, music, cannot be owned - it belongs to all in the public domain.

      This idea is being lost. Its time we restored it, banished the fiction of 'intellectual property', got rid of copyright altogether and looked to a different method of promoting progress in science and the useful arts. And you say 'china' like its a bad thing. I see china, where copyrighted works are used and shared by all for minimal cost, benefiting the society and users rather than big corporations and I see a good thing much closer to the original copyright ideals than our current twisted approach in the west of lock it up, deny it to the public and keep it hidden.

      How much music has re-entered the public domain since copyright began? How much instead has been locked up, mouldering away in vaults? How much has passed several release dates, only for copyright duration to be extended again, and again, and again keeping it locked away? The public is being stolen from. Its time we took it back.

      *the reason all this material is in the public domain by default is for one main reason; free speech. You can't prevent someone repeating or sharing an idea, story, music etc because they have a free speech right to do so. Sharing flames with tapers etc. Copyright temporarily removes that free speech right, in order to reward authors sharing their material with a short period of exclusivity before it returns to the public domain covered by free speech. Current copyright approach ignores this entirely, and effectively will extend copyright duration forever, thus eliminating the whole point of copyright, that of a full and healthy public domain of material freely shared and built on in new works. BSD (and to some extent GPL) software is much closer to the original plan of copyright than closed commercial software development.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by sulfur_lad (964486)

      On the other hand, if you are going to advocate socialism, please be consistent. There are a lot of software developers here. How do you expect to make money if everyone copies your work? Are you going to make money on product support? Tell me, how much money have you spent on product support in the last few years?

      You're missing the point I think. What you're seeing is the AAs trying to affect Canadian federal policy, and that's dangerous. You know how people keep talking about corrupt governments all over the world? Well guess what, a lot of that is because they get corporate donations in exchange for favorable policy on doing business in that country, and the governments will bend over backwards for the benefactors at the expense of their own citizens. As a Canadian, I don't really want a corporate entity to

    • Re:Tell that to Sam the Record Man (Score:4, Funny)

      by brennz (715237) on Thursday July 12 2007, @05:52PM (#19843847)
      Competition from online sales is not a piracy issue you cretin.

      • Re:Competition isn't piracy. (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Technician (215283) on Thursday July 12 2007, @07:03PM (#19844405)
        Competition from online sales is not a piracy issue you cretin.

        Absolutely true. The prices for music has continued to skyrocket in spite of competition for the entertainment dollar.

        I graduated HS in 1975. I bought a few records, but very few because they were expensive. There are many things
        to spend entertainment dollars on now besides a few records (CD's now) that didn't exist then. I do spend my money on these items instead of CD's.

        1 Internet access
        2 DVD's Sometimes 4 for $20!
        3 Games, Game PC's & Upgrades E6700 Core 2 Duo Woo Hoo
        4 High priced gas from 50 cents to 3 dollars
        5 Day admission to State and Fedral Parks Now $5/day was free
        6 MP3 player No longer stuck with radio station commercials all day
        7 Camcorder
        8 Digital Camera
        9 Photo printer
        10 GPS and associated Maps
        11 Nice car

        Somehow the music industry thinks their slice of my entertainment dollar won't shrink if they raise prices to cover lower sales volume? They added DRM & copy protection to make the product more valuable to me so I'll run
        right out and buy a copy?? Yea Right!! DRM and copy protection reduces the value of their product. If I can't
        load it on my media server to put on my MP3 player or stream in the house, I can't use their version of the CD. I look elsewhere. DRM increases piracy as the legit product doesn't work.

        The only movie I have ever downloaded on P-P is Open Season. That was until I found I could call them and get a replacement DVD for my defective by design one. The extra copy protection is why I went elsewhere to load it on
        the media server for the kids.

        I was in Wal-Mart a few weeks ago. Just for grins I looked for Phantom of the Opera. I have heard many dirivative works including MIDI files and Karaoke files and decided to check it out. The CD for just the music in the US is over $30.. What are they smoking?
        http://www.amazon.com/Phantom-Opera-Original-1986- London/dp/B00004YTY2 [amazon.com]
        List price 37.98
        In a nutshell, I bought Fiddler on the Roof DVD and Sound of Music DVD and Sister Act DVD instead with about the same money.

        • Re:Competition isn't piracy. (Score:5, Interesting)

          by UncleTogie (1004853) on Thursday July 12 2007, @08:17PM (#19844811) Homepage Journal

          If I can't load it on my media server to put on my MP3 player or stream in the house, I can't use their version of the CD.

          I have the same CD/DVD usage problems, too, with one difference: I'm 70% deaf. I can't use their product in a normal stereo or DVD player at a level *I* can hear without drawing noise complaints from neighbors. However, they've decided for me that I can't watch/hear it on my PC with headphones. Why? Because they're worried Billy Jo Ray Jim Bob Roy is P2Ping his entire collection of bad porn, Rob Schneider movies, and 1970's country-western to the world...

          In short: Wal-mart doesn't pat me down every time I leave their store, nor WILL they. RIAA's shooting themselves in the foot by mistakenly assuming I'm a criminal.

            • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

              by UncleTogie (1004853)

              Youve never had someone ask to see your reciept as you walk out the door ?

              Sure have. Kept walking, as I know I have my receipt....but I'm the kind of guy whom, when asked by a security guard for his ID, responds "May I see your identification as a peace officer of (or for) the state of Texas or any local or federal agency?"

              Jus' 'cause the Sheeple buy that sort of treatment doesn't mean the rest of us should.

    • Let's not forget the retail pressure from HMV (Score:3, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      three doors down from Sam's either.
      • Don't forget Tower records either.

        Face it, Sam's sucked well before the IPod, Napster and the rest became popular.

    • Re:Tell that to Sam the Record Man (Score:5, Insightful)

      by CastrTroy (595695) on Thursday July 12 2007, @05:53PM (#19843865) Homepage
      Sorry if they have an outdated business model, but that doesn't mean people aren't buying the music and movies. Most people I know get their music from either iTunes or from Amazon or other online stores. It's much easier and often cheaper to get the stuff online. STRM closed because they have no more image with the young people of today. Their stores are few and far between, and they don't advertise to the people or even attempt to have their name known. HMV on the other hand has stores on every street corner, and has partnered with Amazon to give themselves a name in the online business. STRM failed to adapt and that is why they are closed, not because people aren't buying music.
      • I'd been looking for a Tubes album for a couple of weeks and tried HMV and a few other stores. Most of these stores didn't even have a Tubes section, but I could special order only *some* of their discs (surprisingly, the price was only about $13, with a 6 week wait).

        Eventually, on a lark, I dropped into a smaller store that I was sure wouldn't have it but I ending up getting what I wanted for seven bucks.

        Oops, I figured that I should add this for the younger ones: The Tubes [wikipedia.org]

            • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

              by dryeo (100693)
              Well the Supreme Court of Canada seems to think that peer to peer file sharing networks do not infringe copyright. Even having your shared folder accessible is not infringement. One good summery is found here http://www.bereskinparr.com/English/publications/ u pdate/update-mar-31-2003.html [bereskinparr.com].
              Also in Canada there is a levy on blank recording media such as CDRs where money is collected and divided up amongst the artists so every time I back up to CDR or copy my digital pictures they get a cut.
              Seems to be pretty

    • Re:Tell that to Sam the Record Man (Score:5, Informative)

      by sayfawa (1099071) on Thursday July 12 2007, @05:57PM (#19843909)
      Sam the Record Man was bought out years ago before this downloading hysteria. If I remember correctly, it almost went out of business then, but changed hands instead. The form it existed in for the past several years was a watered down version with much less selection. The initial downfall was not because of downloading, legal or otherwise.

    • It's time to buyr Sam and move on (Score:5, Insightful)

      by WebCowboy (196209) on Thursday July 12 2007, @06:22PM (#19844079)
      Selling media content on little plastic discs is obsolete and as such is a shrinking industry. When the pond gets smaller the fish must ether get smaller or some fish must die. That is just life.

      Look what happened when computers with word processing software made typewriters obsolete. Should we have had our governments spend millions to prop up the Smith Coronas and Olivettis and Underwoods and enact legislation to restrict the use and functionality of word processing software, or put a tax on computer software to fund concessions for ailing typewriter companies? Of course not, that's a stupid idea and very backward thinking.

      That is why Sam died--the "selling plastic discs with music on them" pond is slowly shrinking and Sam was a big old fish set in his ways. Other fish in the pond like HMV ate too much of Sam's food and Sam starved to death. That's just life. Some of those little fish will live on, eking out a modest existence in a little puddle and other fish will evolve into amphibians and hop into another bigger pond with fresher water.

      The thing is, things in Canada ARE very rosy indeed relative to our southern neighbours. Our economy is more robust at the moment and demand for media content is obviously strong enough to support some kind of healthy music industry--it's just going to look different. Yes, Sam was an icon of sorts and it's never nice to see an old friend die...but it happened to other old names like Eaton's and the sky didn't fall.

      • but it happened to other old names like Eaton's and the sky didn't fall.
        Of course, Eaton's just went out of business because they kept mailing Maple Leafs jerseys to kids in small-town Quebec.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by FreeKill (1020271)
      The reason stores like Sam go out of business is because people aren't interested in paying insane prices for albums of mostly songs they will never listen to repeatedly. The old CD and Album model is out of date, and some stores that absolutely refuse to adapt are going to suffer as a result. The fact that in the face of competition Sam the Record Man couldn't compete has nothing to do with Piracy.

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by slazzy (864185)
        Yup I think that's very true. I know I get tired of mainstream music after hearing the song on the radio 10 times I'm sick of it - no need to buy it or bother to download. Good indy music I'm willing to pay for and support the little guy.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by TubeSteak (669689)

      Don't let the truth get in the way of a good story, or accusation in this case.

      I'm not even sure what the parent post is alluding to.
      Is he talking about:
      A) "the truth" as told by the movie getting in the way of the **AA's accusations?
      B) "the truth" as told by the **AA getting in the way of the movie's accusations?

      Since when did vague, contextless comments count as +1 Interesting?
      And by contextless I mean, 'what truth' and 'what facts support it'.

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