Gaffes That Keep IT Geeks From the Boardroom

buzzardsbay writes "Yes, it's all in good fun to point out the mismatched belt and shoes and the atrocious hairstyles, but honestly, I'm committing three of these errors right now! Is that why I can't get a key to the executive washroom? Or is it my rebellious attitude and pungent man-scent that's keeping me down? The shocker in here was pigtails on women... I love pigtails on women!"

Slashdot

[youthoftoday]

Trying to get first post is a classic sign

Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom

[ThomasHoward]

Who cares about the pay, once you are earning above a certain amount, being happy with what you do is far more important than earning more money. programming sounds far more fun than managing things and people. Give me t-shirts and jeans, screw wearing shirts, ties, suits and overpriced uncomfortable stuff like that.

Considering that the board room

[Travoltus]

is a major cause of slow-downs in innovation, one has to wonder if we're not looking at the problem in reverse.

Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom

[jotok]

That is a really good attitude to have. I, on the other hand, look really good in suits, and I like consulting more than I like programming. To each his own.

Real lesson

[wanax]

People base a hell of a lot on first impressions.. Although in theory this isn't the best approach, unless we have a new enlightenment one would be wise to "overdress", always.

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[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

This is just another boring story about ...

[Skapare]

... people that think it's more important to judge people by their looks than by what they can contribute to the job. Sure, if the job is is to look pretty or whatever, then you better be able to do that well. But if the job is to make the database perform well, or keep the network secure, or debug the company application product, then those skills are how a person should be judged ... not on their T-shirt color, length of dread-locks, wearing of sandals even in winter, etc.

OK, bathing every day is good.

Choice of after hours sport might affect things, but it should only be because of who is at the same sporting place at the same time. One group might congregate at the golf course, while another is at the skating rink, and yet another is at the shooting range.

Re:Oh damn

[sakusha]

I got excited.... I thought it read....
Gaffes That Keep IT Geeks From the Bedroom

You might be right. Women don't go for guys who dress like slobs.

presentation

[radu.vatav]

The author of the linked article seems to know all about being a "board"-whatever, but isn't able to make a decent presentation (the page is updated too quick for me to read the text). Sort of fits together...

Re:Who's been following me around?

[Antique Geekmeister]

I've seen both: ties are a safety hazard if you have to put your head inside server racks or do lifting to get equipment into the right place. But they're a dress standard in many corporate cultures, just as a tidy desk is. Like doctors wearing scrubs in the hospital, they identify you as professional staff rather than as service staff, even though we often are service staff.

Re:But I Don't Want To Be In The Boardroom

[jfb3]

See, that's the difference between you and them. You think this article was meant to be humorous. They don't.

inability to swollow bullshit and say nothing

[timmarhy]

Board memebers most precious ability is to talk and eat bullcrap straight faced. if a geek hears something he thinks is total crap, they aren't able to not say something. I know i can't, i just have to point out the flaws in a bad idea.

Re:This is just another boring story about ...

[moderatorrater]

. people that think it's more important to judge people by their looks than by what they can contribute to the job...OK, bathing every day is good.

But then you're engaging in the same thing they are! The point of the matter is that you dress and act like you want people to see you. If you don't dress like someone who's going to impress the boss, then you're obviously not trying very hard to impress the boss.

Communication is the name of the game when it comes to management, and someone who can't communicate who they are through their clothing are probably going to have problems communicating in other ways. Is this the way it should be? Maybe not. But society is built upon judging people, and if you don't try to be judged favorably, don't bitch when you aren't.

Re:This is just another boring story about ...

[tirerim]

Well, it's great to know how people should be judged. Unfortunately, that's very rarely how they actually are judged... in part because the people doing the judging often don't even have the capability to assess the correct criteria. Knowing how to impress people with poor evaluative skills is still useful if you want to get somewhere in the real world. And those people aren't completely on crack, either -- they're doing something that we all do sometimes, using evidence from a known domain to give clues about the quality of an unknown domain. If you're buying a car, and you have a choice between one with a perfect exterior and one with a few rust holes in the body, you're probably going to pick the nice-looking one, even if they appear to run the same, because it's evidence that it was better treated, and the mechanical parts of the car are likely to last longer, too. Of course, you could be completely wrong, but you're still basing your decision on the evidence you have. For people, the reasoning is similar: someone who is careful in their appearance is also probably careful in their work.

Personally, I work for a nonprofit, mostly from home, so I don't have to worry about my appearance much. On the other hand, I also don't make much money; if I cared enough about money to work in industry, I certainly wouldn't ignore how I look.

Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom

[moderatorrater]

Everything else aside, earning more money has some serious advantages. Early retirement, better vacations, and being able to ride out a depression with some help from your savings are all things that more money helps. Add a wife and family into the mix and more money's a verifiably good thing. I'm not saying that you should have that same opinion, but for me, I'd take the peace of mind that comes from more money over day-to-day happiness.

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[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Superficial crap

[psykocrime]

I'm sure all of the "tips" in that article are valid, if you work for a stodgy old company run by stodgy old people, or a company full of superficial twits who judge other people by superficial things like clothing. IF you work for a company like that, and IF you intend to continue to do so, AND you care about "climbing the corporate ladder" then sure, ditch your jeans, Iron Maiden t-shirts, Hawaiian shirts, sandals, etc.

On the other hands, you work for one of those kinds of companies, and if you don't care to be a sell-out ("to thine own self be true" and all that) then I suggest quitting and going to work somewhere populated with people who care about things that actually matter, like performance, cultural fit, work ethic, etc. Or, better yet, quit and start your own company.

"Those people" are dinosaurs and there time is passing anyway. Hopefully as the "Gen X" and "Gen Y" kids start to displace their predecessors in the business world, it'll represent an opportunity to inject some fresh thinking and new approaches to things. Life is too short to waste time worrying about what morons think about your belt and shoes.

Now excuse me while I go back to listening to Skid Row's "Youth Gone Wild." \m/
   

Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom

[ozmanjusri]

Wow, a lot of that list was written by MBA jerks jealous over what IT staff does.

No, as an MBA jerk, I can assure you I have no jealousy of IT whatsoever.

That list was written by a hack journo with no intent to reflect anyone's real world attitudes and every intent of boosting ad impressions by getting it posted to Slashdot and Reddit.

It's a shallow swipe at some IT stereotypes, nothing more. It should be in some internet scrapheap, not the front page.

Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom

[uberchicken]

One of the most interesting posts I ever read. You made me think about my attitudes.

Not so much the appearance..

[gelshocker]

But the communication and social skills (or lack of) from 'techies'. You're not gonna get invited to the table if they can't friggin understand what your bashing about.

Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom

[jawtheshark]

In fact, imaging programming for a CPU whose instructions have unpredictable execution speeds and results.

Then it wouldn't be programming anymore, it would be guessing. Sure, you can make best guesses, but that's it. Management is trying to make "best guesses" so that the company will flourish.

Re:Stuffed Shirts and Suits in summer

[Angostura]

That's right. Why adjust the dress code slightly when you can install expensive refrigeration and hike up the energy bills.

Well Said

[bagsc]

The general problem with "low level" employees is not that they aren't bright enough, or hard working enough to be management. The problem is that they only care about themselves.

You get paid at work because you're useful to someone else. But "low level" employees do their tasks, and that's it. "High quality" employees succeed by figuring out how to constantly be more useful to their boss. Don't confuse this as "sucking up" - creating efficiencies, new opportunities, and helping your boss achieve his tasks means your organization is making more money, and some of that money will get directed to the source if it can be found.

Lower management takes objectives and organizes the people to accomplish them for the middle management. A middle manager strives to hit the benchmarks for the upper management. The upper management strives to keep the profits growing for the CEO. The CEO is redirecting the company and dealing with the board of directors and everyone who wants his ear as the figurehead. Every step is about serving someone else - the CEO is a slave to the Board, who are slaves to the investors, who need the stock price to go up to pay for their retirement or their kids' tuition.

If you want to be paid more, just keep trying to keep the end customer happy.

Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom

[QuantumG]

Heh, I've worked at a few places "run by geeks". They don't last long. There's this thing called "sales" that they seem to miss. Of course, I'm talking about IT geek here. I know some very successful business nerds. I know a girl who is a big time tax nerd.. natural born bureaucrat, wildly successful.. wears a lot of suits.

Re:Don't let them in on the secret

[Angostura]

Let me have a stab at that. Could it be that 'management' involves, in part being able to communicate effectively with both colleagues and and people external to the company. The latter in particular is helped by conforming to societal norms in terms of dress.

Clothes convey a message - you might not like it, but they do.

So you ask: "why is it that if an artist dresses like a tramp and snarls at anyone who tries to distract him (or her) while working, that's just how talent operates, but when it's engineers or programmers, that just shows how dysfunctional they are?"

The answer is - society thinks, of artists as idiosyncratic individuals who can defy social norms as part of their 'work'. It doesn't matter if an artist paints herself green and snarls like a dog, because they don't have to work as a team or manage anyone. The artist is sending a message: 'I don't conform', but that's part of the job description.

Now imagine an engineer or programmer giving exactly the same message: 'I don't conform'. That may not be a hinderance in any way while they are bashing out Perl in a cubicle somewhere. But management requires the manager to conform - to buy into the company's and societies norms - at least to an extent.

So that's why both the artist and the geek will be accepted as artist and geek while dressed as a tramp, but will find it more difficult to become a C*O

The two routes that are both denied stereo-geeks

[Anonymous Coward]

There's stereotypically two routes to the boardroom that are denied the stereotypical IT geek (and we're expressing ourselves in generalities here):

1. The "Must be there" effect. With this you can be in the boardroom and top management at any age - the requirement is simply that the rest of the board members feel they NEED you there. For example, if you founded the company, you can be a board member at the age of 20, wahoo. Or if you happen to have a Harvard MBA and the rest of the board feels their academic-peni are collectively insufficient to impress the rest of the world, they may invite you because they feel you might not join if they didn't. This is rather obvious.

There are however enough IT people with a sufficient level of experience that are happy enough with regular jobs that there's no desperate need for IT people on boards. Or at least that is the feeling. IT scandals may change that from time to time and cause boards to look for someone with lots of IT experience, but even in those cases the _number_ of board members as a percentage of every IT geek in existence will be miniscule, so don't expect every second colleague to join the board. Companies whose PRIMARY business is IT will typically have IT people on the board. For example the board members of Apple include the CEO of Google.

2. To trickle up through age and experience. To do this however you need to be seen as having a certain mindset, and that mindset is _the company as a whole above everything_. You also need to be a well-rounded character, because anyone at board level may be asked to comment on any issue (and as well-known from Slashdot, the tiniest slipup from a privately employed senior manager and the torches are out). People whose mindset narrowly concern one area of the business will never rise to any more than at most "manager of area X". IT people are often narrowly focused on IT issues and are rather specialised characters (or have specialised beliefs, as again commonly seen on Slashdot), and to put them in charge of a company is like putting the star chef of a cooking program in charge of managing the program production. Effectively you need to be good at your current job, but at the same time always have a mindset that more things than your current job matter. You should within not too many years find a match between the sphere of things you care about and the sphere of things you have responsibility for.

But to clarify, the 'boardroom' notion is rather misguided - the 'board' of a company is not the same at all as 'senior management'. The board is effectively the oversight authority for senior management, with the ability to hire and fire them and represent shareholders, and so will typically consist of senior individuals (in age) with a range of typically _generalist_ experience. They are supposed to be the guys who see beyond buzzwords, don't get seduced by pet projects, and see the entire company as a whole. The board are like the civilian chiefs of a national army - people who are set apart from the organisation and see it in a different and holistic light. The answer then gives itself - you need to be a person who could do that.

Re:Stuffed Shirts and Suits in summer

[easyTree]

Hint: it has nothing to do with fashion. It's a "you vs us" type situation. Clothing is just the nominal reason.

Re:Superficial crap

[Confused]

"Those people" are dinosaurs and there time is passing anyway. Hopefully as the "Gen X" and "Gen Y" kids start to displace their predecessors in the business world, it'll represent an opportunity to inject some fresh thinking and new approaches to things.

You might be too young to remember, but in 1968 there was a big movement about changing society, authority, ditching old values etc. Today's revolutionaries are pretty tame compared to the the generation of 68. So what became of those revolutionaries and non-conformists? Today, they sit in suits and ties and are exactly those dinosaur managers you accuse of being the establishment incarnate. With Gen X and Gen Y - whatever those may be - exactly the same will happen and fresh approaches to things will be discarded like before.

Life is too short to waste time worrying about what morons think about your belt and shoes.

No, you got it wrong. For them life is to short waste time to figure out if that moron who can't even dress properly has other redeeming values.

More generally speaking, clothes and appearance are the cues you give other people what to think about you. So if you dress like a techie, people will treat you like a techie (which is in short: Fix this and begone). This is perfectly fine, as long as you want that. However if you want to be treated differently (eg being taken seriously by people with decision power) you'll have a hard time. The easiest way to overcome this is send other signals. (eg dress in a cheap ill fitting suit with an atrocious tie for the used car salesman treatment). The extremes in this area are con men, who make it an art to appear a lot more than they are.

Clothes are just a communication protocol: Learn the spec and use it when appropriate.

Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom

[repapetilto]

"MBA Jerks" are like the MPs of the educated work force, everyone else hates them because they dont directly contribute anything and are in charge of everything. IT, science, anything.

Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom

[stiggle]

Sometimes management doesn't understand that the little things are more important than the money.

In one job I had flexitime, but then we got new management in and tied a 5k GBP pay rise to loosing the flexi. I rejected the pay rise cause I liked the flexibility. They didn't understand why someone would turn down the extra money.

Another one was leaving a job and taking over 50% pay cut to get a more relaxed job not in the city. Lifestyle and lack of stress is worth more than money (once you've enough to cover all the bills).

Re:Stuffed Shirts and Suits in summer

[aywwts4]

That's a tad hypocritical don't you think? Us geeks being the ones with the rooms filled with racks and racks of incredibly efficient space heaters that demand constant refrigeration 24/7.

Top ten list of ...

[jandersen]

I barely managed to read the first page; but there is a grain of thruth in there. Every group of people has its own 'culture' and norms, and if you don't fit in, you will find it hard to be accepted as part of the group. Part of that is the way you look - if you want to be accepted amongst upper management, you have to look the part. The same is true for engineers - after all, would you trust a programmer wearing an impeccable suit and tie?

But much more important than the clothes you wear is the person you are. Are you reliable? Are you life-competent? In all groups it is important to contribute to the group, not just professionally, but also socially. You can fit into a group even if you break a lot of the norms, if you are seen to make important contributions to the group. A bit like the messy old grandpa who seems to be from another planet, but who none the less resolves a lot of family conflicts with his understanding and wisdom.

Re:Suits do give a first impression

[jotok]

That's fine, because it rarely matters what you think of me so long as you do your job. As your consultant my job is to help make you successful--I find coming in with that kind of attitude (instead of demanding you kowtow because I have on a tie) defuses most of the friction you might expect when the customer has your attitude, and then we can collaborate to the extent required to get the job done.

This is perhaps an example of those "great social skills," but some might call it "social intelligence." I'm hardly a social butterfly--actually, something of an introvert--but I know how to handle surly know-it-all geeks and this is why I keep getting hired again and again.

The key to your employment, on the other hand, is your technical skills. You picked a field that fits you, which is great...A little social skill would probably help out but it doesn't need to be your bread & butter. We occupy differ niches, is all.

Re:Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

"mismatched shoes and belt show you have no attention to detail" WRONG.
Sorry, it shows that I don't give a shit about what I or any one else wears. People who do care about what other people wear are ignorant and should spend their time on things that actually matter. Quite frankly, if you pay any attention to what other people wear, you need to get a life. There are FAR more important things, really.

Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom

[jotok]

There's a corollary to that.

A lot of IT jobs give bonuses (for utilization or meeting SLAs). But bonuses are taxed at the highest rates. So when offered or negotiating bonuses, I find it makes more sense to go for salary increases; you can forgo a 10% bonus for a 5% raise and your takehome is actually more (and the bosses are happier).

This is why when we look at jobs we need to look beyond the salary and deep, deep into the whole benefits package and "what makes you happy."

Your keyboard smell like KFC? Another bad sign

[SystematicPsycho]

There was this one guy at my old work who's keyboard smelt like KFC because I guess he didn't find it finger licking good, another gaffe.

On another note I'm an Oracle DBA but I ain't dressing like this?! http://www.dba-oracle.com/dress_code.htm [dba-oracle.com] ; The sad thing is I think he's serious.

Any tech who thinks that they can cut the best code and will one day make it to the top because of the awesome code they've been writing, or problems they've been fixing is living in a fantasy land unless they drastically change something.

The management world is a world away from rational scientific thinking where fortunately/unfortunately some techies live. Management makes decisions based on money and sometimes pride. If you're a techie fixing a problem chances are the senior types are thinking 'hurry up and fix it fatso' but saying to you 'How are you? We really need this fixed, if you could work on it and give me an ETA that would be greeeaat'. If you really want to be "in", you have to start throwing around management mumbo jumbo and acting like a prick to people. Kiss some arse at a few out of work functions, start staying back late and soon you'll be delegating that code cutting to some other 'fatso'.

Re:Slashdot

[Forge]

Yep. Unfortunately your boss is one of those idiots that pays attention to what other people wear. And since impressing the boss is the only way to get promoted people with your attitude will never be management.

Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom

[richlv]

being unhappy with their everyday work, people get stressed easily, have bad climate in family and tend to develop serious health problems.
quite a lot of upper management just have to retire earlier because their health has been silently broken faster than the guy working in construction.
there's a limit where bigger wage just detoriates because of the everyday problems, and in the end the total "income" from that promotion is negative - but you usually don't notice that until it is too late.

The problem is the PHB Not Alice or Dilbert

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

If a boss pays more attention to matched shoes and belt, or could be convinced that you are a great "pay attention to detail person" by your choice of shoes and belt, he is a pointy haired boss. Organizations that employ such dolts as bosses are doomed for failure. If you can't get to management positions because of your attire, leave that company. It is infested with all the bad management types.

Someday I hope to see articles written by clueless hack journalists aimed at the MBA types asking them to wear pocket protectors to impress their came-from-the-IT CEO.

Re:Slashdot

[ZeroExistenZ]

your boss is one of those idiots

Find another job if you cannot work with your boss. If you want to ever be "management" and you find your boss "an idiot". Well, then you're not cut out to be management or certainly not in that firm. Sitting around smoothtalking waiting for a promotion from someone who you think is an idiot? right..

And since impressing the boss is the only way to get promoted people with your attitude will never be management.

That wont make you management. It makes you a suckup who's running after a dangling carrot without charisma and reliability: you'll just agree when sometimes you have to disagree with your boss and let him know why. Who constantly wonders why there aren't offers for promotion and sit waiting while serving "the master". bah. Then resorting to passive agressiveness because you feel you deserve a promotion yet cannot deliver?

I've gotten many management position offers, being 26, in international companies. Not by sucking up, but by getting things done, going outside of my "safety zone" or unexepectedly pulling projects straight. (I'm a consultant software developer)

I'm too young for management, and I like to code more then management. Yet sucking up or "pleasing" the master isn't the way to go. I've been in such a firm before where that was expected. I wouldn't last a day anymore and would refuse projects for firms like that.

Who needs that, anyway?

[danaris]

Well, I will have to make sure I wear my brown belt more often (I only own one pair of office-quality shoes, and they're black).

I don't want to be management. I like being a programmer and sysadmin, and I'm good at it. I don't think I'd be that good at management.

And since I have the ear of the person who is, for all intents and purposes, the IT Manager, I have a good amount of say in what goes on (when I want to) anyway ;-)

Dan Aris

Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom

[SQLGuru]

Hear, hear! I wear shorts to work about 85% of the time (the other 15% is jeans because it's too cold for shorts).....and this is for a very large company. Will I ever make management? Probably not....but I'm not really trying to, either (but I don't think my shorts are the only reason -- I'm not political enough, either). I'm much happier down in the code.....in fact, here lately, I've been wishing I wasn't even in the lead developer role....just a straight up coder.

My worst day at work for my current job is better than the best day at work at a lot of places.

Layne

Re:Stuffed Shirts and Suits in summer

[sm62704]

"Don't kid yourself, everybody in here is wearing a uniform." -Frank Zappa to a heckler at the end of a recorded show.

Re:Slashdot

[DaveV1.0]

Apparently, you are either a dumbass, a liar, or both.

First, you not only quote out of context, but you completely fail to understand the poster's point. In the grandparent post, it says "People who do care about what other people wear are ignorant and should spend their time on things that actually matter" and the parent poster responds "Unfortunately your boss is one of those idiots that pays attention to what other people wear". This says nothing about working with one's boss, nor does it say he thinks his boss is an idiot.

Second, you are wrong when you say impressing one's boss won't lead to a management positions. You mistake looking professional and impressing one's boss with sucking up and being a yes-man. One does not imply or require the other. Also, you state you have been offered "management position offers, being 26, in international companies", but I noticed you didn't say you were being promoted inside your company. This leads me to believe that you are not progressing inside your company but rather companies are trying to hire you away. That is not getting a promotion, and getting promoted is what the other poster was talking about.

And, to be honest, I find it amazing that any company would want you in a management position given your attitude, poor reading comprehension, and poor communication skills. I am willing to bet what you consider a "management" position is really a low-level mid-management position where you would not be making decisions, but rather herding other programmers or acting as a project manager.

Re:Black Suits Are the Real Faux Pas

[LetterJ]

I wouldn't say that navy is *always* best. I always wore earthtone suits and sport coats and my wife always nagged me that I should really be wearing navy to interviews. That is, until she saw the color on me. I look like a washed out corpse in navy. Nobody hires washed out corpses. Zombies? Yes. Washed out corpses? No.

Unlikely Defenders of Fashion, Unite!

[DrMaurer]

Uhh, how long does it take to notice that someone is wearing something? It's not particularly hard or time consuming. With all the IQ points available to people who often make statements like that, one would figure that a half-second of processing in your head would be OK.

It can even be beneficial to morale to notice when a co-worker, especially those who take the time to present themselves nicely, changes something or has something particularly nice. This, however, can lead also to sexual harassment claims. Your mileage and tact may very.

Fashion exists as a method of self-expression. Sometimes there are people who really don't care about themselves in that context. Fine. Some people do care. Some people care too much. All are fine, but simply saying there are "far more important things" indicates that your priorities are different and over-rule other people. (I would consider providing people with clean drinking water more important than my job, or probably the anon poster here, for example.) As pleasing to your ego as that might be, it's not necessarily true.

Particularly for males, fashion isn't that difficult to do properly, just take the few minutes to do so. Women's fashion is a whole other animal. Fortunately or not; I haven't decided.

Of course, I forgot to comb my hair this morning. So what do I know?

Re:Slashdot

[cbart387]

Apparently, you are either a dumbass, a liar, or both.

Do you know what else helps in impressing your boss? By not insulting people in a disagreement/discussion.

Re:Slashdot

[Johnny5000]

I'd happily get brown shoes over black if I thought it were important to anyone, but as I don't consider my current employer to be part of my long-term career, I intend to stick with the comfort of my needs-replacing sneakers.

Even if that's the case, it's still best to make a good impression on the people you work with now.
It might make a difference in the raises/promotions you get at your current job, and even if you don't plan to be there forever, it might help your starting salary at your next job if you're making more at your current job.

Not that my dress is perfect either, but...

[Mongoose Disciple]

You never know when making a good impression on someone will help you later in life.

Several years ago I was working in a job I didn't intend to keep for long. I made a good impression on one of the guys on my team there.

Flash forward to a few years later and I'm working somewhere else at a job I hated. Long story short, I was lied to in a bad way during the interview process and the job was completely unlike the answers I had gotten to my questions while interviewing. Out of the blue I was offered a much better job because of the guy at the first job.

My story is more about quality of work than matching belts, but it never hurts to make a better impression when you can.

Re:Slashdot

[grammar fascist]

A lot of my time is spent crawling around under people's desks or in the ceilings, trying to get broken network connections working (I'm glad to say I had nothing to do with the wiring in this building, so I can blame someone else. Instead, I wear nice (non-stained, non-faded, non-ripped) jeans and a button down shirt.

Not replying to your ideas, just your syntax to make a point.

People who are at least slightly fashion conscious (that is, most people) regard mismatched shoes and belt, or mismatched clothing and situation, as programmers regard mismatched parenthesis. It's just uncomfortable to look at.

Re:Slashdot

[geminidomino]

people with your attitude will never be management.

Why do people keep saying this like it's a bad thing?

Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom

[smooth wombat]

Telling a PHB (or a lot of slashdotters even) there is anything more important than money is like telling a Muslim there is something more important than Allah.

Telling a PHB (or a lot of slashdotters even) there is anything more important than money is like telling an Evangelical Christian there is something more important than God.

There, fixed it for you.

Re:Slashdot

[ZeroExistenZ]

but I noticed you didn't say you were being promoted inside your company

low-level mid-management position

You can assume what you want. I do not have to prove my worth to you because it doesn't fit in your frame of reference. You may feel I should bring out all my reference and offered opportunities to make my point and have more credibility to you yet that's a waste of time on my part and yours. Rest assured, my employers take very well care of me and appreciate my effort to achieve our common goals instead of selling out for purely money and status.

Apparently, you are either a dumbass, a liar, or both.

You may disagree, ok. But starting to insult a person because his views are different, comes from another background or culture speaks much in your disadvantage. I hope you'll never be in charge of international relations.

Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom

[sm62704]

In that particular case the extra "o" completely changed the meaning of the sentence he was trying so unsuccessfully to communicate. An old blues song says "if you lose your money please don't lose you mind" but if you loose your mind you'll probably come up with something creative. If you loose your dog he may run away and you may lose him.

Funny how there are illiterates at a site with the motto "news for nerds". Maybe it should change to "dyslexics news stuff, for matters that." Or perhaps "wee don knead two no how too spill, wee half spill chuckers!"

When dressing for success, be an Einstein

[kcdoodle]

It is said that Einstein had 7 identical suits and just picked the next one each day.

I have 30 identical pairs of black socks. All purchased on the same day from the same store. When I grab two socks out of the drawer they ALWAYS match. They will all be faded and lose their elasticity around the same time. They will all be brought to Goodwill at the same time, and I will buy 30 new pairs at that time. Enough on socks.

I have 15 pairs of dark pants. A few black, a few navy and mostly various shades of gray. All the pants can go with basically any of my shirts (mostly).

I have 20 long sleeve, button up shirts. Almost all solid colors. The only acceptably pattern is vertical pin stripes. Always wear a v-neck undershirt.

Two pair of simple, polished black shoes and a couple of black belts.

There you have it. You do not have to do wash for two weeks at a time. You never have to "match socks". You never have to match shirts to pants. You always look good and feel good without having to put forth mental effort.

Hey, programmers are elite. Those other "artists" dress in jeans one day and silk suits the next. I just wanna look good and get a little respect. Management is for people who do not know how to code anyway.

Re:Who needs that, anyway?

[Amilianna]

Yep....women are ALL about shoes, and not just for themselves, apparently they put a good deal of importance in men who wear nice and often $$$ shoes. And if you spring for good shoes, you're probably gonna match the belt with them too.

Speaking as a woman who couldn't give a rat's red behind about what shoes you are wearing, I think that this is an oversimplification. If you want that type of girl, then the shoes you wear, the car you drive, whether or not you know the right people will all influence whether or not she'll even give you the time of day. If you don't want that type of girl, then it really doesn't matter all that much. It is the same principle with the girls I know complaining that every guy they meet just wants their body. So I reply to them - well, stop meeting all the guys in bars! If you are doing things that attract a certain type of person - the type you don't really want - in an effort to find that one other person who is doing the same thing you are, chances are pretty good that you'll never find them. If you're not naturally the type of person to give a darn about expensive shoes, then don't put up a front. You'll be more likely to find someone you mesh with if you just be yourself.

Okay, mini-rant done.

Re:When dressing for success, be an Einstein

[Machtyn]

The right type of undershirt should keep you cool. Which type that is? I'm not sure. I've rarely had problems with my cotton-poly's in Kentucky's 90F/32C, 90%+ humidity, dog days of summer. Plus, it'll catch the sweat marks before your outer shirt does.

Please, if you have a hairy chest and button down shirt that is thin, wear an undershirt. I had an interview where the interviewer did this... it was distracting.

Re:Nice Shoes, Yep.

[Anonymous Coward]

Repeat the same survey for vehicle, clothes, quality of the grass in the front yard, golf clubs, type of wallet, jewelry, type of restaurant they eat at, etc.. No surprise there, people who make more money typically by more expensive things. Notice I stated more expensive things which is not specifically related to better quality things.

Just wondering though, what is your definition of crappy shoes? Cheap ones? If they fit well and are comfortable, they are not crappy shoes. Today, I have on a generic polo style shirt I got at Target on clearance for $8. I've had it for at least a year now and it still looks nice and I wear it at least 3 times a month. It gets tossed in my cheap old style top loading washing machine on the regular cycle with all of my other clothes using mid/low priced laundry detergent after every use. I would only have to spend $60 to get a name brand shirt, not a quality shirt.

My wife and I make decent money (top 10% according to my tax software overview statistics). I'm more interested in my own financial future than what the neighbor or the dude in the cube next to me thinks about my non name brand shirt. Where are they going to be when I'm 50 and retired?

Re:Black Suits Are the Real Faux Pas

[dwye]

> if I had one piece of fashion advice to give to fellow geeks its: DON'T WHERE A BLACK SUIT!

Black with a subtle pinstipe is OK (no herringbone, though). It might be perceived as too high status, but using correct grammar spoken at a normal speed, and faking some manners, will ameliorate the impression of claiming excessive status.

Just remember, black suits with black shirts are only worn by mobsters. Or Johnny Cash, but you're not him.

BTW, if your black suit is making you sweat, it is too heavy for the weather, not the wrong color. A seersucker suit that heavy will make you sweat almost as much.

That's how you get "promotions" these days, innit?

[TerranFury]

Also, you state you have been offered "management position offers, being 26, in international companies", but I noticed you didn't say you were being promoted inside your company

In all fairness, I think that's pretty common. It's becoming an old joke that the fastest way to get promoted is to get a job at another company -- and then have your old company hire you back at a higher salary. Yet it's not really joke: It happens over and over again.

I am willing to bet what you consider a "management" position is really a low-level mid-management position where you would not be making decisions, but rather herding other programmers or acting as a project manager.

Well, sure. He's trying to sound impressive. But, let's be honest: All you did in this paragraph was replace "management" with some mostly-synonyms that just happen to have negative connotations. I think that's called spin. Because management is a lot of people-herding.

You mistake looking professional and impressing one's boss with sucking up and being a yes-man. One does not imply or require the other.

Indeed you are correct. In fact, challenging your boss at the right times (in a diplomatic manner) can earn his respect. Which, if I were clever, I could turn around and use to deconstruct the whole GP's post (But I won't. Derrida was obnoxious.)

Apparently, you are either a dumbass, a liar, or both.

He's exaggerating, sure. But your style won't do you too much good either. Let's be civil, a'ight?

Peace.