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It's funny.  Laugh. Space Science

To Boldly Go Where No Mento Has Gone Before 143

rjwoodhead writes "This past weekend, my entire family learned what it's like to float in freefall aboard G-Force One (recently featured on the Mythbusters' Moon Hoax show). Being science-lovers, we wanted to do some kind of original experiment. So we decided to test whether the Diet Coke & Mentos reaction was affected by the lack of bubble convection in microgravity. At the link you can find the story of how the experiment evolved and how we talked Space Adventures into letting us fool around with sticky and corrosive cola and candy inside their nice clean airplane, as well as high-speed video of the results."
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To Boldly Go Where No Mento Has Gone Before

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  • by dotancohen ( 1015143 ) on Saturday August 30, 2008 @03:35PM (#24812773) Homepage

    ...and more fun too, or so I'm told.

  • Price (Score:3, Informative)

    by stoolpigeon ( 454276 ) * <bittercode@gmail> on Saturday August 30, 2008 @03:37PM (#24812789) Homepage Journal

    He says 4 grand in the blog - and over at the zero g site it says 5200 when taxes are included, so it looks like prices have been bumped up. I'm still going to start saving up for it though.

    • It looks like a load of fun and I'd love to experience weightlessness. So I'll be doing the same. Hopefully this can happen sometime next year.
      • Re:Price (Score:4, Interesting)

        by plover ( 150551 ) * on Saturday August 30, 2008 @06:00PM (#24813675) Homepage Journal

        A friend is a private pilot and used to have access to a Cessna 150 Aerobat. He took me up and we went into a couple of zero-G arcs. It's astoundingly cool! And in a little Cessna it was far less than a hundred dollars an hour to play around in.

        Of course, this does have its drawbacks compared to the Vomit Comet. Being a tiny(!) plane, there's no space for a passenger to actually float around the cabin. I unbuckled the seat belt so I was lifted off the seat for a while. A few objects in the cabin floated around a bit. But the little Cessna cannot achieve the speeds and altitudes required to follow a zero G parabola for more than about ten seconds at a time.

        Even if it could, there's a bigger problem. Fuel intake is the limiting factor. Regular planes have a rigid fuel intake inside the gas tanks near the bottom, and the fuel sits on the bottom of the tank. The Aerobat uses "clunk tanks" similar to model planes - weighted flexible hoses in the gas tanks to ensure the fuel and intake hose are on the "bottom" of the tanks even when the plane is inverted. Both types of tanks rely on gravity to keep the fuel and the intake together. Without gravity, neither the fuel nor the intake hose are under any physical obligations to meet up with each other, and the engine can run dry. That's generally considered a "bad thing."

        • I occasionally do zero-gee parabolas in a glider. While running out of altitude can be a downer (pun intended), I never have problems with fuel flow!

        • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

          by Anonymous Coward

          I work for a well known government agency and have flown in the C9 vomit comet (for free no less...well at least free to me). And I agree that it is definitely worth a good hunk of money. Personally I wouldn't pay it (I'm too cheap) and it's kind of annoying that ZG only does 15 parabolas (most C9 tests do 50+) but they wanted to choose a number that made it worth it to the consumer but didn't make them sick (i.e., wanting more and positive word of mouth).

          I'm supposed to fly the ZG 727 sometime later this

    • I realize it's not exactly the same thing, but....

      For five grand you could pay for all the training you need to get an actual pilot's license, and then you could go up and do as many zero-gee parabolas as you want. They won't last thirty seconds, and you don't get a big chamber to float around in doing weird experiments. But on the other hand you'll have a pilot's license to do all sorts of other fun things with, and your cumulative zero-gee time could be vastly higher!

  • Good luck getting Space Adventures to allow to "fool around" with that experiment.
  • Mento (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward

    I'm pretty sure the singular of Mentos is still Mentos.

    • Re:Mento (Score:5, Funny)

      by dotancohen ( 1015143 ) on Saturday August 30, 2008 @03:50PM (#24812877) Homepage

      If "Mentos" is "the freshmaker" and not "the freshmakers" then yes, the singular form is "Mentos". I suppose that the plural would then me "Mentot".

    • by Mozk ( 844858 )

      It's a brand name anyway, so the singular form would be Mentos mint, or Mentos dragée as the labeling puts it. On a similar note, it deeply bothers me when people say "Hand me a Kleenex" as if Kleenex were a word. These people also use Kleenex as the plural, as though that somehow made sense. Just call them tissues, dammit.

      • so do you also ask for adhesive bandages instead of band-aids? acetylsalicylic acid tablets instead of asprin? and acetaminophen instead of tylenol?
        • by Mozk ( 844858 )

          Aspirin has been a legally genericized trademark in the US since 1923. And yes, I say acetaminophen instead of Tylenol because there has never been a situation where I needed that specific brand and also because Tylenol makes other products besides those just containing acetaminophen. As for adhesive bandages I just say small bandages.

          However, there are brand names that I use generically, such as Velcro and Bubble Wrap, neither of which I would normally capitalize.

          • IMO, language is a natural outgrowth of culture. it should be allowed to change and evolve organically however a society sees fit to use it, without regards to legal trademarks. i think it's futile and unethical for companies to demand that the public stop using their trademarked name as a generic noun or verb. no one individual or organization has the right to impede the natural course of linguistic evolution. it's something everyone contributes to. if the general population decides that "kleenex" is synon

  • In summary, they had great difficulty getting a classic mentos/diet coke reaction. From problems with the camera to issues getting a mento and coke together. Add in some residual gravity, and it was a complete failure. No explosions, not even any cool looking video.

    A very poor result from such a promising premise.

    • Re:Slow news day? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by mccalli ( 323026 ) on Saturday August 30, 2008 @03:58PM (#24812935) Homepage
      From problems with the camera to issues getting a mento and coke together. Add in some residual gravity, and it was a complete failure.

      It was experimentation - not a failure. The blog says they're working on improving the design for next time - this is exactly what scientific experimentation should show. Initial postulate, experimentation, refinement based on results.

      Far from a failure, and I certainly enjoyed reading about it and watching the videos.

      Cheers,
      Ian
      • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

        by Fumus ( 1258966 )
        Yet I'm still curious why didn't they just use a glass filled with coke?
        Or a tiny scrap of plastic wrapped around the coke, which they could unwind and then add the mentos using their stick.
    • by plover ( 150551 ) *

      I still don't understand why, after their failure, they didn't just stick the mint-on-a-stick straight into the open bottle? If it had reacted violently, they could have just removed it.

      Or was it that they only wanted to see a blob of free-floating diet Coke explode suddenly with a mint stuck in it?

  • by SuperBanana ( 662181 ) on Saturday August 30, 2008 @04:27PM (#24813127)
    The first half of the article expouses the most blatant TSA apologist bullshit I've ever seen:

    Whatever you may think about the rules that the TSA enforces (and I agree with Bruce Schneier in that regard), the fact of the matter is that the frontline staff that you deal with have little or no freedom to apply common-sense discretion, and are often placed in situations where they don't have the time, or the background knowledge, to make an informed decision, which means that the default answer is "no". When you couple that with the fact that anyone can be having a horrible day, and some small percentage of people are jerks to begin with (a smaller percentage than most people assume), and multiply by hundreds of thousands of people going through security a day, it's a recipe for horror stories.

    ...and then he describes how they were pre-briefed and OK with everything...except some clay. Yeah, you heard that right. They were briefed ahead of time, there was no terrorist risk, and these asshats objected to clay because it looked like plastic explosive.

    This has nothing to do with the people going through security, and it's only partly the rules. It is absolutely not okay for a TSA agent to "have a bad day" and do anything except apply TSA policies in a humane but consistent manner. If they can't do so on a "bad day", they need to find a different job.

    TSA screeners and management absolutely LOVE the fact that despite being badly paid, undereducated, and almost always minorities- being a TSA agent places them at the top of the food-chain in an airport. Their words and decisions are that of god, and with a word they can transform anyone's business trip or vacation into sheer hell. Like the case where TSA screeners forced a new mother to drink her own breastmilk to prove it wasn't an explosive or poison.

    They're also, in many cases, dumber than fenceposts. The guy whose Audi key was confiscated because it was a "switchblade", the Macbook Air fiasco...I'm sure there are thousands of similar incidents we never hear about.

    For chrissakes, these people banned NAIL CLIPPERS and thought liquid binary explosives were possible to deploy on a plane because they'd seen in the movies that the baddies had these scary devices that mixed different colored liquids...

    • by jo42 ( 227475 )

      The Road To Idiocracy starts with one step.

      With the TSA being the first downhill grade to help speed things up.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      and thought liquid binary explosives were possible to deploy on a plane because they'd seen in the movies that the baddies had these scary devices that mixed different colored liquids...

      As John Carmack points out [slashdot.org], it is not only possible to have explosives like this, it's not very difficult.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        The problem is not whether such an explosive can exist. The problem is whether such an explosive could be mixed in an airplane bathroom without anyone noticing and remain unexploded long enough for Our Villain to get it out of the bathroom and up next to the skin where it might do some serious damage.

        Everything I've heard about such binary explosives indicates that the outcome is an explosion while mixing the stuff in the bathroom, one badly injured terrorist, and one trashed airplane lavatory.

        • The problem is whether such an explosive could be mixed in an airplane bathroom without anyone noticing and remain unexploded long enough for Our Villain to get it out of the bathroom and up next to the skin where it might do some serious damage.

          Who is watching what someone does in the bathroom? And if the goal is to take the plain out, the bathroom next to the skin is a perfectly fine place to detonate a bomb.

          • Nobody watches you, but somebody is going to get suspicious when you're in there for half an hour straight trying to use the place as a chemistry lab.

            As for the bathroom being a perfectly fine place to detonate a bomb, I'm doubtful that the bathroom is a critical area. Unless the bomb is truly enormous, you need to do more than just place it against the skin. That will just make a big hole, kill the attacker, and annoy and frighten everyone else. You need to get it to an area where it can cut hydraulics, sc

            • Nobody watches you, but somebody is going to get suspicious when you're in there for half an hour straight trying to use the place as a chemistry lab.

              Chemistry lab? What chemistry lab? Did you read Carmack's post? It's literally pour fuel into peroxide, gently stir, and Presto! You have an impact grenade. I personally would carry it out and throw it where the wing connects to the plane, but if you blow a big enough hole in the bathroom, that could do a lot of damage.

              Anyway, we could keep debating logistic

              • Did you read Carmack's post? It's literally pour fuel into peroxide, gently stir, and Presto!

                I read that it's "not very challenging" from somebody who builds large rockets for fun in his spare time.

                Mixing such a shock-sensitive mixture in an airliner bathroom without setting it off prematurely is going to be tough. I don't know about this specific case (he doesn't say what fuels work) but a lot of these things are significantly exothermic as well, even when they're just dissolving, which makes it even harder.

                And as an aside, throwing it where the wing connects to the plane is probably the worst (fr

      • by marsu_k ( 701360 )

        As John Carmack points out [slashdot.org], it is not only possible to have explosives like this, it's not very difficult.

        Some people disagree [theregister.co.uk]

        • Some people disagree

          Note that article was limited to a discussion of Peroxide and acid, which is not what Carmack was talking about. I tend to trust the guy who has actually done the experiments, rather than a pseudo-journalist from The Register.

    • Wait a second... You are getting upset at the TSA doing their job?

      The TSA has policies just like every other company out there. The front line people have no decision making power aside from the ability to apply those policies.

      How many policies has your company used that you thought were stupid? I am sure a lot.

      The TSA people are tested each and every day. You give them flack over what they do in order to keep people safe... But if something were to happen again who would be the first people you
      • by gclef ( 96311 )

        No, we get upset at the TSA for doing their job badly.

        • I agree they should improve. The parent makes it seem more of an attack for them doing their job.
          • If their job was to kick you square in the nuts every time you went through the security gate, would you still think that they shouldn't be criticized for "doing their job"?

            • Attack the policy not the guy trying enforce it.
              • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

                So you're saying that if TSA's policy was to kick you square in the nuts as you go past, you would "attack the policy", but be perfectly fine with the guy who's actually putting his foot in your crotch?

                • But the medium *is* the message!
      • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 30, 2008 @06:29PM (#24813881)
        I have yet to see a precise brief for what I consider about the worst collection of morons ever to be let loose on the public in the name of security theater.

        As a nice, bright and shiny illustration of just how safe you are with these people being given free reign is illustrated by the story of how the TSA grounded 9 planes [aero-news.net]. My favorite quote: "TSA agents are now doing things to our aircraft that may put our lives, and the lives of our passengers at risk".

        I am yet to be convinced there is a measurable return on investment for the money wasted on TSA, investment in HUMINT would have been a better use of the budget. and THAT annoys me most when those morons do their usual.

        I guess the use of room temperature IQs is essential to stop anyone from thinking about what they're doing, but the result is that they give the impression of being people rejected for writing parking tickets because they were too stupid.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        It is a price for security.

        That's a funny use of the word "price". Normally when you pay the price for something, you get that something in return. I see no evidence that the price we pay constantly to the TSA results in getting security in return.

        • You don't see the return in this because maybe they are doing their job to cut down on the impact of threats. By making the airport more secure.
          • Yes, it's possible. On the other hand there is no evidence for it. The simpler explanation is that they are what they appear to be: a bunch of incompetent idiots.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by kvezach ( 1199717 )
        The TSA people are tested each and every day. You give them flack over what they do in order to keep people safe...

        No, we don't give them flak over what they do in order to keep people safe. We give them flak over what they do in order to trick some people into thinking they're safe. It's all theater, and the laws of nature don't care about appearance.
      • by Dunbal ( 464142 )

        "You give them flack over what they do in order to keep people safe... "

        Perhaps as a doctor I should remove all your autonomy, force you to comply to my directives and ensure that you live your entire life out according to my standards, because after all my goal is to "keep you safe" and free from disease.

        It's not about the actual individuals working for the TSA. It's the whole damned paternalistic concept. Please. If my goal is to kill someone on an aircraft I ca

    • You left off parts of what he said. They might not support your rant so well, but I think they provide a more complete picture.

      And I'd also like to thank the TSA screeners, who arrived on site already totally up to speed on what we wanted to do (they'd even seen my test videos).

      But in our case, since the screeners had been pre-briefed, it was easy to demonstrate that everything we wanted to use was well within the TSA rules. The only thing that didn't fly was a tiny ball of modelling clay that we were going to use to mount the mento onto a ziptie with, and the screeners helped brainstorm an acceptable (and better!) mounting method.

      You summarized part of the bottom quote, but not all of it.

      In an earlier blog he points out that as a commercial flight, the TSA rules must be obeyed and he still had to be screened by the TSA (yes, that's silly), but he wasn't talking about the regular line at an airport.

  • Being science-lovers, we wanted to do some kind of original experiment.

    Am I the only one, who finds the expression — especially, when used in reference to oneself — rather pretentious?

    • Am I the only one, who finds the expression - especially, when used in reference to oneself - rather pretentious?

      Yes, I'm pretty sure you probably are the only one... what's pretentious about it? If they'd said something like, "Being science-experts, we wanted...", THAT would perhaps be pretentious, but there's nothing pretentious about claiming you love something, is there?

      I don't see any qualitative difference to the sentence, "Being cat lovers, we decided to spend the weekend at the cat show that was in town.".

  • by Britz ( 170620 ) on Saturday August 30, 2008 @07:06PM (#24814093)

    I always thought the people take diet coke instead of normal coke precisely because it is not sticky, because it does not contain sugar. And I also used to believe that most of the corrosive behaviour of coke also comes from the sugar. But that's just me.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by BluBrick ( 1924 )

      There may not be any sugar in diet coke, but it's still kinda messy. Still, mix it with the sugar in a Mentos, and you can bet it's gonna get real sticky. Also, the corrosive nature of coke originates not in the sugar, but in the Phosphoric acid (H3PO4) [bu.edu] it contains.

      (To be fair, that MSDS is for an 85% solution - about 1500 times stronger than coke)

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by Anpheus ( 908711 )

        It should be noted that with high concentrations of various chemicals, just because the % concentration is 1500 times higher does not mean the "strength" is 1500 times higher. 85% phosphoric acid is incredibly dangerous, vastly moreso than accidentally spilling 1500 times the volume of coke on your skin (1mL versus 1.5L.) Though 1mL of 85% phosphoric acid wouldn't kill you, it'll do a lot more damage than 1.5L of coke.

    • As I understand it, part of coke's corrosive behaviors are from the acids 2 other posters mentioned (carbonic & phosphoric), but one they left out was that the sugar provides an amazingly good food source for bacteria in your mouth. They form a biofilm on your teeth (scrape your tooth after not having brushed for a while, that smoothness you feel is the biofilm). As the bacteria metabolize the sugars, they excrete waste compounds which are a corrosive acid(s?). Because there's a biofilm there which p

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