This morning on the NPR shuffle podcast, they included a segment about Penny Arcade. Seems only fair since NPR did Achewood a few months ago. If they just get XKCD on there, then the universe can rest.
I love seeing Tycho and Gabe (Jerry and Mike if you will) getting the recognition they deserve. Penny Arcade has broken ground in success and shown how it is possible to build a business model providing a primarily free product. The key is having a product people want.
I just wish the great works they've done such as Child's Play and PAX had gotten more than just a mention.
Perhaps some people who listen to NPR will branch out and look at the seedy underworld of online comics now.
These guys don't get half the recognition they deserve. They've built from scratch a gigantic charity organization that gives thousands of kids a ray of sunshine in a time of their life that would otherwise be dark and bleak. That alone needs to be given the props they deserve to get, and that's not even scratching the surface here. It's most probably because of the success of PAX that E3 is rethinking its closed-doors invitation-only no-booth-bunnies rebranding failure. (That, and the stockholders weren't too crazy about their latest idea, the "First 1000 attendees get gouged with an icepick" promotion)
I think it's great what they've done for the kids. But I think part of the problem is that the comics themselves aren't exactly kid-friendly. It's like they go out of their way to include the F word in every strip.
I think it's great what they've done for the kids. But I think part of the problem is that the comics themselves aren't exactly kid-friendly. It's like they go out of their way to include the F word in every strip.
That's sort of part of the point of Penny Arcade doing Child's Play. The strip isn't for children, just like a huge portion of video games aren't for children.
It's a site for adults, and a partial motivation behind Child's Play was to show that there's more to the demographic of adult gamers than the stereotype of slackers who sit around playing violent video games.
Penny Arcade has been so successful, I think, because they have managed to serve as representatives for this community so well. Gamers identify
How is this model different... They have adds which bring in revenue for their site, also they sell merchandise based on their brand. So by creating a site that caters to pleasing many people they have created demand for their crap, and their popularity has became a profitable spot to advertise. That seems the same as Hasbro's 1980's money making method. Sell toys advertise by making a TV show about them and also collect advertising revenue from the TV show.
How is this model different... They have adds which bring in revenue for their site, also they sell merchandise based on their brand. So by creating a site that caters to pleasing many people they have created demand for their crap, and their popularity has became a profitable spot to advertise.
Well yeah, I think that's exactly the point. Too many 'tards out there think there oughtta be a way to put up a web site, wave a magic wand (google ads), and get rich, and then complain that providing free content doesn't pay the rent. PA demonstrates that nothing about making money via the internet is substantially any different than real life.
Agreed. Jerry and Mike not only know their audience but they are both fountains of talent, and their lifelong friendship gives them such a depth of knowledge about each other that they can play to each other's strengths. The result is an authentic, insightful and usually hilarious window into gamer culture and lifestyles. They've taken their wildly successful online product, which they disseminate for free, and leveraged it into not only an immensely popular (and probably highly lucrative) gamer convention but also started an eyebrow-raising global charity which has brought smiles to thousands (if not millions) of children the world over.
I think of these two people as examples of the kind of rare but wonderful success that can be found when one simply does what s/he loves, and chooses to embrace what s/he is. That mixed with healthy doses of dedication and luck can have alchemical results beyond the wildest expectations.
Maybe I'm one of the few on Slashdot who "don't get" their cartoons. I do enjoy a few that relate to games I like. But I always thought they were a bit overhyped in the past. (The art is kind of meh IMHO. Topics sometimes too trendy.)
I respect them a lot though. They have been around like a decade. They survived the "eFront.com fiasco" and Internet Bubble. (Which took a lot of backbone.) And after that they set up a nice deal with "Child's Play" charities, conventions, etc.
Well, no humor appeals to everyone. You're allowed to dislike their comics. I'm allowed to think libertarianism would never work. You're still allowed to post.:)
The point is that they were one of the first independent internet comics that managed to make a living at their work, and have used their success for good instead of evil. Kudos to them.
Would it be too much to expect the summary to actually link to this Penny Arcade comic? Or should I go crawl back under the rock I've been living in?:)
Anyway, for the too-lazy-to-google set, here's the link http://www.penny-arcade.com/ [penny-arcade.com]
Yeah, and while we're on the topic of mysteries, can any of you guys tell me what this "Linux" thing is you all keep talking about? It keeps getting mentioned, and I hoped I'd be able to figure it out from context, but I've had no luck so far.
You can live under rocks? Why doesn't anybody tell me these things!?
It's interesting that the submitter didn't think that the radio show that aired the story was worth mentioning. (Weekend Edition Sunday [npr.org], which I used to listen to a lot before the podcast glut took over my headphones.) Apparently NPR now has a lot of listeners who only know them through their podcasts.
That's beginning to include me, even though I've been listening to NPR since most of you were still in grade school. I used to be fanatical about their content. They seemed to cater to people with more intelli
Just a tad under three minutes, and it's some random guy talking about P-A. I was hoping they might be interviewing the duo themselves.:( Their interviews are always quite hilarious. Then again, I guess the point was to convey what P-A is to 'normal' people, which I don't think those two can do, lol.
No they are still around. But their availability depends on local public radio stations. Much like how you have you local ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX channels which has their own stuff mixed with network stuff. Kinda the same with NPR (however it is more of a looser agreement) So if you have public radio stations in your area then they may choose to have NPR as well. However some Public Radio stations decide to just be Classical Music Stations and cover very little news, Other Jazz Music. Some Public Radio stations are owned by big broadcast companies and feed their own stuff in. Then there are News Stations Public Radio and depending on how much local and national news they do the amount that NPR is broadcasts varies. Oddly enough for a station that has a bunch of rather serious reporters their most popular show is Car Talk with Click and Clack, they were actually voice overs in Disney Pixar's movie Cars as the main characters sponsor, where they answer car questions and make fun of the people asking the questions... And themselves.
Hmm a show about cars being the most popular. Amazingly that is not that surprising to me, the only show I listen to on the local talk radio station is the Car Talk every Saturday. I work most Saturdays driving from place to place to do various things so I usually catch some if not most of it. The ironic thing is I know almost nothing about cars, I guess the host is just that good as he holds my attention well (not the easiest thing to do).
I know I was trolling above, but honestly, I've seen so little wi
Not to defend NPR, but you can stream them, get local feeds, get them on XM/Sirius, and so on. Broadcasts aren't limited to 'radio' these days.
In terms of user-supported media (they get surprisingly little government funds as a percentage of overall revenues), they're pretty efficient in terms of their overall reach.
Well they did get some major funding cuts when the republicans took power. And NPR especially at the time was a very liberal news organization, they have toned down a bit. And are actually rather balanced at the Left seems to hate them and so does the Right... So I guess they are in the middle now if both sides thinks they are to far in the other direction.
So I guess they are in the middle now if both sides thinks they are to far in the other direction.
I guess you could call it the middle. It seems to me all they've done was add some commentary by right-wing nutjobs to complement their traditional slate of commentary by left-wing nutjobs. You do get a wide variety of interesting viewpoints, though, so I continue to listen.
Citations on the 'major' funding cuts please? They recently had a one hour discussion with their ombudsman discussing media bias based on funding, and it was discussed that NPR hardly receives any government at all, and hasn't since the 70's. Not that it's an official source, but Wikipedia would agree, and puts the number at 2% from government grants and progrmas.
NPR has been cast as liberal by conservatives, but I find it pretty mainstream. Journalism when done correctly and honestly, gets criticized by all quarters.
The only time I had a problem with their coverage recently was when Mara Liasson started to fawn after the legacy of the Bush administration. The wool over her eyes damages her credibility.
Bias is a tough thing to determine... when you're against something, everything said for the topic seems like bias. When you're for something, everything said against the topic seems like bias in the other direction. Being Canadian, I listen with a fairly open mind and I find they wholly represent all sides of the political spectrum and I don't know that it's entirely the hosts fault if more people tend to be for or against something you're not.
The bias is subtle and I imagine unintentional. It is simple things like "the Republican senator from Alaska Ted Stevens has been found guilty...." vs. "The Illinois governor has been charged with....." The most obvious case was when Bush was first elected and he and Clinton were at the same function. "President Clinton and Mr. Bush were at....." It also shows up in story selection. Every Palin slip was replayed gleefully over and over. Biden slips were somehow never mentioned. I didn't vote for either but
The most obvious case was when Bush was first elected and he and Clinton were at the same function. "President Clinton and Mr. Bush were at....."
Sorry bud, your bias is showing. If by "when Bush was first elected" you mean between the election and Jan 20, it would be incorrect to refer to Bush as president. President-elect or Mr Bush is just fine, no bias required.
If you listen to NPR daily, you've probably noticed references to Mr Obama. He's not president yet, just as Bush wasn't president yet w
Agreed. I'm middle-of-the-road politically and I would say that as a whole NPR is slightly left. I won't say the bias is willful and deliberate and diabolical and all of that, but I do believe it exists.
And when considering issues of bias, whether we're talking about left bias or right bias, it bears mentioning that often the issue of bias has as much to do with what's NOT reported as what is reported.
Here's an example that really stood out for me. When the initial financial collapse occurred, NPR did a story on how both campaigns were handling it. The McCain piece, which aired first, had a subtle negative shading - his plans were referred to as "schemes", etc. All of the information was garnered from press releases, and the reporter told the whole story.
Then they ran the Obama piece, in which they intro'd Obama's spokesman, he said his prepackaged bit, they threw some softball questions at him, and i
Well I don't have full transcripts however I have noticed type of wording they used and the way they values responses. For example they were interviewing a spokes person for the Evangelical Christians, he was behaving quite well and responsibility, trying to give middle of the road answers to the question. But the questions were focus on trying to make him really speak out against Oboma and try to really make him seem like he is against popular opinion. However a while back when interviewing an abortion doctor she gave some statistics that most people would find to be way off (1 out of 4 women have abortions) unchallenged or unquestioned. In general they make the people who fit in the liberal plate seem more human, and they try to get the conservative plate people to seem more like monsters. They are much better then anyone else at trying to keep balanced but there is a slant, if you pay attention.
Your comment reminds me of polling done on journalists regarding the whole "is journalism slanted to the left" question. First they asked "Are you liberal, moderate, or conservative?"; then they asked opinions on specific issues - gays, abortion, the military, social welfare programs, etc. Then they compared the answers that journalists gave to answers from the rest of the populace, and a striking pattern emerged. While journalists overwhelmingly identified themselves as "moderate" (I think it was 75%),
It's funny, I used to disdain NPR. The image of tatty-clothes-wearing hippies running a radio station always kind of turned me off. Perhaps not surprisingly, as I've gotten older, I find I listen to them almost exclusively. I can't stand regular for-profit radio anymore. It's all the same, a constant noise barrage littered with commercials and moronic DJ's. It's not that I don't like the music (although I avoid most bubblegum pop), my iPod is wide and varied (Metallica to Rammstein to Sigur Ros to Perfume Tree to Beethoven). But I find something very refined about NPR, and find all that they do well-thought and well-presented. Hell, I've even started listening to A Prairie Home Companion. Click and Clack are my weekend appointment, however, I try not to miss a show if I can help it.
I'm amazed you got modded at all, you AC fuckwad. You obviously struck a chord with some other annoying halfwit in here. I'm trembling at your anonymous threats! I'm also glad that you hate my choices in music, because I don't listen to your friend's (singular) shitty garage band that no one has ever heard of or ever should.
I'd explain at how my life doesn't resemble at all what you seem think it does, but you're obviously a cowardly little shitbag whose mother didn't love them enough, so I'll leave it at
I would just like to add to parent poster's informative post, since he/she touched on the local affiliates. Some are great, and some as stated, are maybe too narrowly focused or play too little NPR broadcast content to have wide listenership.
So I just wanted to throw in a plug for a superb local affiliate in the L.A. area based out of Santa Monica (from Santa Monica College), KCRW. They have a great selection of shows of all genres of music, excellent DJ's, and play a LOT of NPR syndicated shows.
I listen to NPR. At this point I think it's pretty much the one and only station of any value left on the airwaves. (No idea what you can find on satellite radio, so I reserve judgment there.)
NPR is great. Since I figured out how to rip the mp3s off of their flash stream of Morning Edition and All Things Considered, I barely listen to any other podcasts. It's like having 60 Minutes on 14 times a week. And that's intended as a compliment.
That happens in all mass media. I had something similar happen to me with the local newspaper here, so now I just don't have anything to do with them from a story/source standpoint.
The Author stopped updating the comic and said he would only update "occasionally". According to a Google search the site has been down since around the beginning of December. (I can't reach it either.)
They are a bunch of pretentious bourgeois twats who love imperialism and the CIA.
Seize the means of production! You have nothing to lose but your chains, brothers!
Seriously, are you for real? I'd have thought your type died out in the 90's--- if I didn't hear them regularly featured on NPR, decrying imperialism and the CIA. I think that's the beauty of NPR: they run the gamut of opinion to thoroughly, everyone thinks they're propaganda mouthpieces for "the opposition".
It'd be more accurate to say that NPR are the wikipedia editors of broadcasting stations. The very premise of their channel (National PUBLIC Radio) is foreshortened by those who have taken upon themselves the reins of content, editorial, and command. Now it's more like National People-who-must-hear-the-sound-of-their-own-voice-reading-the-news Radio"
At least they haven't made up their own goofy language. Reading the discussion[citation needed] tabs[citation needed] on any given[citation needed] wikiped
Grats! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Grats! (Score:5, Insightful)
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I think it's great what they've done for the kids. But I think part of the problem is that the comics themselves aren't exactly kid-friendly. It's like they go out of their way to include the F word in every strip.
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I think it's great what they've done for the kids. But I think part of the problem is that the comics themselves aren't exactly kid-friendly. It's like they go out of their way to include the F word in every strip.
That's sort of part of the point of Penny Arcade doing Child's Play. The strip isn't for children, just like a huge portion of video games aren't for children.
It's a site for adults, and a partial motivation behind Child's Play was to show that there's more to the demographic of adult gamers than the stereotype of slackers who sit around playing violent video games.
Penny Arcade has been so successful, I think, because they have managed to serve as representatives for this community so well. Gamers identify
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Thousands? Try MILLIONS!...To date they have raised over 4 Million.
So you're saying they've raised over 4 million kids? Impressive.
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How is this model different... They have adds which bring in revenue for their site, also they sell merchandise based on their brand. So by creating a site that caters to pleasing many people they have created demand for their crap, and their popularity has became a profitable spot to advertise. That seems the same as Hasbro's 1980's money making method. Sell toys advertise by making a TV show about them and also collect advertising revenue from the TV show.
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Which would make sense, because most of the folks I know who read PA (myself included) were the target audience for Hasbro, Kenner, etc. in the 1980s.
M.A.S.K. ruled so much.
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How is this model different... They have adds which bring in revenue for their site, also they sell merchandise based on their brand. So by creating a site that caters to pleasing many people they have created demand for their crap, and their popularity has became a profitable spot to advertise.
Well yeah, I think that's exactly the point. Too many 'tards out there think there oughtta be a way to put up a web site, wave a magic wand (google ads), and get rich, and then complain that providing free content doesn't pay the rent. PA demonstrates that nothing about making money via the internet is substantially any different than real life.
Re:Grats! (Score:5, Insightful)
Agreed. Jerry and Mike not only know their audience but they are both fountains of talent, and their lifelong friendship gives them such a depth of knowledge about each other that they can play to each other's strengths. The result is an authentic, insightful and usually hilarious window into gamer culture and lifestyles. They've taken their wildly successful online product, which they disseminate for free, and leveraged it into not only an immensely popular (and probably highly lucrative) gamer convention but also started an eyebrow-raising global charity which has brought smiles to thousands (if not millions) of children the world over.
I think of these two people as examples of the kind of rare but wonderful success that can be found when one simply does what s/he loves, and chooses to embrace what s/he is. That mixed with healthy doses of dedication and luck can have alchemical results beyond the wildest expectations.
Toast to Jerry and Mike!
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Posted Anonymously for Obvious Reasons. (Score:2, Insightful)
Maybe I'm one of the few on Slashdot who "don't get" their cartoons. I do enjoy a few that relate to games I like. But I always thought they were a bit overhyped in the past. (The art is kind of meh IMHO. Topics sometimes too trendy.)
I respect them a lot though. They have been around like a decade. They survived the "eFront.com fiasco" and Internet Bubble. (Which took a lot of backbone.) And after that they set up a nice deal with "Child's Play" charities, conventions, etc.
Call me dumb, but I never
Re:Posted Anonymously for Obvious Reasons. (Score:5, Funny)
Obligatory [xkcd.com]
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Well, no humor appeals to everyone. You're allowed to dislike their comics. I'm allowed to think libertarianism would never work. You're still allowed to post. :)
The point is that they were one of the first independent internet comics that managed to make a living at their work, and have used their success for good instead of evil. Kudos to them.
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Link? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Link? (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, and while we're on the topic of mysteries, can any of you guys tell me what this "Linux" thing is you all keep talking about? It keeps getting mentioned, and I hoped I'd be able to figure it out from context, but I've had no luck so far.
You can live under rocks? Why doesn't anybody tell me these things!?
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Question (Score:2, Redundant)
NPR Versus The Pods (Score:2)
It's interesting that the submitter didn't think that the radio show that aired the story was worth mentioning. (Weekend Edition Sunday [npr.org], which I used to listen to a lot before the podcast glut took over my headphones.) Apparently NPR now has a lot of listeners who only know them through their podcasts.
That's beginning to include me, even though I've been listening to NPR since most of you were still in grade school. I used to be fanatical about their content. They seemed to cater to people with more intelli
Just a little disappointing... (Score:3, Informative)
Just a tad under three minutes, and it's some random guy talking about P-A. I was hoping they might be interviewing the duo themselves. :( Their interviews are always quite hilarious. Then again, I guess the point was to convey what P-A is to 'normal' people, which I don't think those two can do, lol.
Re:Someone actually listens to NPR? (Score:5, Informative)
No they are still around. But their availability depends on local public radio stations. Much like how you have you local ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX channels which has their own stuff mixed with network stuff. Kinda the same with NPR (however it is more of a looser agreement) So if you have public radio stations in your area then they may choose to have NPR as well. However some Public Radio stations decide to just be Classical Music Stations and cover very little news, Other Jazz Music. Some Public Radio stations are owned by big broadcast companies and feed their own stuff in. Then there are News Stations Public Radio and depending on how much local and national news they do the amount that NPR is broadcasts varies. Oddly enough for a station that has a bunch of rather serious reporters their most popular show is Car Talk with Click and Clack, they were actually voice overs in Disney Pixar's movie Cars as the main characters sponsor, where they answer car questions and make fun of the people asking the questions... And themselves.
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Hmm a show about cars being the most popular. Amazingly that is not that surprising to me, the only show I listen to on the local talk radio station is the Car Talk every Saturday. I work most Saturdays driving from place to place to do various things so I usually catch some if not most of it. The ironic thing is I know almost nothing about cars, I guess the host is just that good as he holds my attention well (not the easiest thing to do).
I know I was trolling above, but honestly, I've seen so little wi
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Not to defend NPR, but you can stream them, get local feeds, get them on XM/Sirius, and so on. Broadcasts aren't limited to 'radio' these days.
In terms of user-supported media (they get surprisingly little government funds as a percentage of overall revenues), they're pretty efficient in terms of their overall reach.
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Well they did get some major funding cuts when the republicans took power. And NPR especially at the time was a very liberal news organization, they have toned down a bit. And are actually rather balanced at the Left seems to hate them and so does the Right... So I guess they are in the middle now if both sides thinks they are to far in the other direction.
Re:Someone actually listens to NPR? (Score:5, Insightful)
So I guess they are in the middle now if both sides thinks they are to far in the other direction.
I guess you could call it the middle. It seems to me all they've done was add some commentary by right-wing nutjobs to complement their traditional slate of commentary by left-wing nutjobs. You do get a wide variety of interesting viewpoints, though, so I continue to listen.
Parent
NPR is not government funded. (Score:2)
Re:Someone actually listens to NPR? (Score:5, Insightful)
NPR has been cast as liberal by conservatives, but I find it pretty mainstream. Journalism when done correctly and honestly, gets criticized by all quarters.
The only time I had a problem with their coverage recently was when Mara Liasson started to fawn after the legacy of the Bush administration. The wool over her eyes damages her credibility.
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I disagree. Even when I support an issue, I can tell when someone is veering a bit beyond reporting and entering into nut-jobbery.
I have encountered bias on NPR. Both left leaning and right leaning. But the amount I have noticed has been less than any other news source.
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The bias is subtle and I imagine unintentional. It is simple things like "the Republican senator from Alaska Ted Stevens has been found guilty...." vs. "The Illinois governor has been charged with....." ....." It also shows up in story selection. Every Palin slip was replayed gleefully over and over. Biden slips were somehow never mentioned. I didn't vote for either but
The most obvious case was when Bush was first elected and he and Clinton were at the same function. "President Clinton and Mr. Bush were at
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The problem is that Chris Matthews and others claim their journalists, and in fact, they're entertainers.
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The most obvious case was when Bush was first elected and he and Clinton were at the same function. "President Clinton and Mr. Bush were at ....."
Sorry bud, your bias is showing. If by "when Bush was first elected" you mean between the election and Jan 20, it would be incorrect to refer to Bush as president. President-elect or Mr Bush is just fine, no bias required.
If you listen to NPR daily, you've probably noticed references to Mr Obama. He's not president yet, just as Bush wasn't president yet w
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Agreed. I'm middle-of-the-road politically and I would say that as a whole NPR is slightly left. I won't say the bias is willful and deliberate and diabolical and all of that, but I do believe it exists.
And when considering issues of bias, whether we're talking about left bias or right bias, it bears mentioning that often the issue of bias has as much to do with what's NOT reported as what is reported.
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Here's an example that really stood out for me. When the initial financial collapse occurred, NPR did a story on how both campaigns were handling it. The McCain piece, which aired first, had a subtle negative shading - his plans were referred to as "schemes", etc. All of the information was garnered from press releases, and the reporter told the whole story.
Then they ran the Obama piece, in which they intro'd Obama's spokesman, he said his prepackaged bit, they threw some softball questions at him, and i
Re:Someone actually listens to NPR? (Score:4, Informative)
Well I don't have full transcripts however I have noticed type of wording they used and the way they values responses. For example they were interviewing a spokes person for the Evangelical Christians, he was behaving quite well and responsibility, trying to give middle of the road answers to the question. But the questions were focus on trying to make him really speak out against Oboma and try to really make him seem like he is against popular opinion. However a while back when interviewing an abortion doctor she gave some statistics that most people would find to be way off (1 out of 4 women have abortions) unchallenged or unquestioned. In general they make the people who fit in the liberal plate seem more human, and they try to get the conservative plate people to seem more like monsters. They are much better then anyone else at trying to keep balanced but there is a slant, if you pay attention.
Parent
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Your comment reminds me of polling done on journalists regarding the whole "is journalism slanted to the left" question. First they asked "Are you liberal, moderate, or conservative?"; then they asked opinions on specific issues - gays, abortion, the military, social welfare programs, etc. Then they compared the answers that journalists gave to answers from the rest of the populace, and a striking pattern emerged. While journalists overwhelmingly identified themselves as "moderate" (I think it was 75%),
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"The World" doesn't have anything to do with NPR. It's a PRI show.
Re:Someone actually listens to NPR? (Score:5, Interesting)
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I'd explain at how my life doesn't resemble at all what you seem think it does, but you're obviously a cowardly little shitbag whose mother didn't love them enough, so I'll leave it at
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I would just like to add to parent poster's informative post, since he/she touched on the local affiliates. Some are great, and some as stated, are maybe too narrowly focused or play too little NPR broadcast content to have wide listenership.
So I just wanted to throw in a plug for a superb local affiliate in the L.A. area based out of Santa Monica (from Santa Monica College), KCRW. They have a great selection of shows of all genres of music, excellent DJ's, and play a LOT of NPR syndicated shows.
They have
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Re:Perry Bible Fellowship (Score:5, Informative)
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Jesus, yeah, that last strip.
Thanks for making me feel like a jackass for hoping you keep making awesome comics.
Punch in the stomach, man.
Sucks that the site's down. I'd saved a bunch of them, but I think they were on a hard drive that died a couple months back.
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The Author stopped updating the comic and said he would only update "occasionally". According to a Google search the site has been down since around the beginning of December. (I can't reach it either.)
Re:NPR sucks my bunghole (Score:5, Interesting)
They are a bunch of pretentious bourgeois twats who love imperialism and the CIA.
Seize the means of production! You have nothing to lose but your chains, brothers!
Seriously, are you for real? I'd have thought your type died out in the 90's--- if I didn't hear them regularly featured on NPR, decrying imperialism and the CIA. I think that's the beauty of NPR: they run the gamut of opinion to thoroughly, everyone thinks they're propaganda mouthpieces for "the opposition".
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At least they haven't made up their own goofy language. Reading the discussion[citation needed] tabs[citation needed] on any given[citation needed] wikiped