Woman Claims Ubuntu Kept Her From Online Classes 1654
stonedcat writes "A Wisconsin woman has claimed that Dell computers and Ubuntu have kept her from going back to school via online classes. She says she has called Dell to request Windows instead however was talked out of it. Her current claim is that she was unaware that she couldn't install her Verizon online disk to access the Internet, nor could she use Microsoft Word to type up her papers."
Re:Expected (Score:1, Interesting)
This is the sort of thing that is going to happen when you give a normal person *nix. Sadly, in this case, Windows "just works."
Considering the Verizon software is probably for a 3G-Wireless usb card, yes I could see windows exclusivly, although WINE may have been able to accomplish it ( never tried ) As for Word? ROFL! Wine+MSOffice, or OpenOffice... next
Considering that my 3g connection is detected by the network manager by default, i'm surprised there is any conversation about this at all.
maybe we just can't expect everyone to finish college, some people are just not bright. serioulsy, do you want this person to be a doctor or manage your finances if she can't be bothered to click on the "network" icon in the top right corner of the screen? what kind of problem solving skills does she have.
Re:When can my mom use Linux? (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't know about *your* mom, but my 65-ish year old parents Adapted from Windows 2000 to CentOS 5.2 (the desktop version) + OpenOffice 3 in about a day. I just needed about 20-30 minutes of time to show them the little differences in using their new GUI.
Their first comment? "Wow, this is pretty fast. Now we don't have to spend a grand on a new computer. Thanks!" (on a fairly old 2ghz P4 box with 512mb RAM and Matrox...remember them?...video card)
There is hope.
Cheers,
sales and tech support really dropped the ball (Score:4, Interesting)
She actually realized she had made a mistake before the computer was shipped, and called Dell. But the rep she spoke to convinced her to stick with Ubuntu anyway. It appears that he didn't suggest one of the support packages that Dell offers for their Ubuntu machines.
Another missed part of the story is that Verizon mustn't have done anything to help her before this became news (given my experience with big ISPs they don't give much help if you're using Linux, so I assume she called).
While it isn't exactly fair to expect companies to bend over backwards to help customers with what they perceive to be "exotic" setups, I wonder why, after all these years, they don't at least have a list of local LUGs to which they could direct Linux users. Had someone at least got her in touch with them, I bet the problems could have been resolved.
Re:This is a real problem (Score:2, Interesting)
But since many Linux-advocates presumably want to see things like Ubuntu go mainstream, the answer can't be "this woman is a moron and the TV station is worse for covering it". Her problems, even if they seem ridiculous, were real enough to her. So how do you counter this kind of problem? (Some might say decent journalism could have helped here, but that's part and parcel of the perception problem.)
Um, you could flip that around and say that you are a moron for using a nonstandard OS that mystifies average users and journalists alike in how to use the damn thing. Sure most of their functionality exists somewhere in the pain in the butt OS, but why would any sane person install or try out anything buy the standard OS that everyone knows that everything works for?
You'd also be a moron for sticking with the platform after attempting to use it and finding instead of useful help on the internet for the new user insults left and right about how stupid the new or average user is. The sane users stick with the mainstream and pay the Geek Squad $300 to install antivirus and run defrag. Oh, they'll moan at the $100 per hour costs of IT help as well.
Now compare this with doing any car maintenance. Does the average slashdotter even know how to change their oil? What about filters and such or how much a starter, alternator, or transmission should cost? No we'd spend what we were told to spend to get our cars fixed. And then moan and whine about how much car repair costs.
Re:Expected (Score:5, Interesting)
It's a local tech college. They're pretty good as local tech colleges go, but they're as Microsoft-centric as anywhere else.
Long ago, I served time on the help desk at the library there. Mac OSX was still relatively new, and the library had gotten some shiny new Macs in with OSX preinstalled (of course, PCs outnumbered Macs about 10:1). For some reason, all of them were reinstalled with OS 9 a few days after they came in. One of our regular Mac users was very irate at us, but of course us help desk folks had nothing to do with it.
Ubuntu bites woman (Score:1, Interesting)
Granted Linux is cast in a bad light, and the overall techno-scornful reaction is not funny (I like hyphens), but when have we ever seen someone write about Microsoft Word destroying a 110 page thesis, or thrashing a floppy disk to death? How about Powerpoint crashing and taking hours of work with it, or not starting no matter how many times you click the icon?
People have ACCEPTED that bad behavior from their computers is normal, so no one makes a big deal of it.
The true take away is that this person EXPECTED the computer and software to be at fault.
We should really make the effort to cast this as a beautiful, shining moment of transition when people start to realize that they can expect better things from their Silicone companions *wipes away tear*
Remember where you were when you read this story, one day you will be able to tell your offspring, clone, or robo-buddy that you were a witness to The Change
Re:Expected (Score:3, Interesting)
Vista's highly annoying level of UAC was actually designed in an annoying manner on purpose, to try to get users to complain to the developers.
However, "Publisher: Microsoft Corporation" means... yeah, it backfired. :P
Re:Expected (Score:5, Interesting)
Most likely she asked questions like "can I do papers in Ubuntu" and they told her how.
Dell is making a play to be a major Ubuntu reseller on Netbooks. Their tech support has to learn how to provide end user support for Ubuntu. Not just say "use windows".
And frankly this story doesn't smell right to me.
Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Expected (Score:4, Interesting)
Gawd, not this again.
Then tell me what does not Just Work. If you're so daft that you can't even figure out to clock on Applications->Office->Word processor, then you should consider an elementary computer class, with no matter which OS. Even OS X is harder, you have to navigate the Dock first.
Remember, this is not someone who installed Ubuntu, Dell did that for her.
Re:Humor? Entertainment? (Score:3, Interesting)
1. She accidentally ordered a laptop with Ubuntu on it. Okay, when she calls Dell, they should have been much more helpful. Yes, we geeks of the world clearly understand the superiority of Linux to windows. However, the customer is always right... If she wants windows, Dell should have been much more accommodating and put windows on the laptop.
2. Hopefully the first class this woman is going to take is a "Introduction to using the personal computer".
Re:Expected (Score:3, Interesting)
The same applies to different versions of Word on different computers. Your point?
Too much time is wasted on presentation in place of content. Students increasing font sizes and spacing to try to make a 2-page text meet the 10-page requirement, for example.
We'd all be better off if scholastic submissions were all in plain text, with carriage returns between paragraphs.
Re:Expected (Score:4, Interesting)
She most likely had to go out of her way to order Ubuntu. Dell does not make it easy to do this accidentally. She didn't pay attention to what she was buying. She then had a conversation where she did understand what she bought and decided to keep it.
This is not a bait and switch.
Re:It's a plant (Score:5, Interesting)
1) You can't "accidentally" find an Ubuntu Dell.
2) Dell support would NEVER say "you don't want windows, Ubuntu works better for you".
3) She took FIVE MONTHS to complain
It's a fake.
It's not so much a fake as a woman rationalizing her decision to drop out of college - "It's not my fault I couldn't make it, I got a bad computer!"
Re:Exactly (Score:4, Interesting)
Linux is about productivity first. Linux is easy to use, but not completely obvious. With the power to begin any complicated task just a click or keyword away, it can feel like being dropped into an ocean and being asked to swim. The most extreme example of this type of design where productivity is valued over obviousness or 'intuitiveness' is Blender3D. Blender is a F***ING nightmare to figure a damn thing out. I used 3D studio max and poked around and was modeling simple buildings and funny creatures in a matter of hours. Blender I was just like WTF!?! and by the time I figured out how to draw a simple cube, I gave up. Last summer, I thought I would give it another go after watching Elephant Dreams. I figured, ok, of they can do this, I must be able to do better than a box. I thought: What would be the pragmatic way of going about this. Hmm.. Read the damn documentation maybe? The first thing the documentation covered was that the GUI ia intentionally designed a very particular way and they are NOT going to change it. While it requires a lot of memorization, once you 'get it', it will enable you to model faster than ever. Despite not knowing how to do anything, the GUI didn't seem so 'stupid' anymore. If every little detail was very well thought out, then I needed to give it a chance. I jumped on youtube and did a search for "Blender tutorial". MANY results. I picked a series and followed along. While the controls were not obvious in any way, they were easy to remember and simple to use. Every few videos or so, I would try to figure something out on my own, but usually with complete failure. But continuing with the videos, each 20 minute segment was showing me whole new aspects of what could be done. I got to give credit where credit is due. super3boy [youtube.com] did a pretty good job. The videos were a bit on the crude side, and the examples were really simple and drawn out, but considering how effective he was in assisting me with my learning, it was perfect. I even showed a friend that had never even much used a computer but to check email, and within a week we were making beautiful scenes, fun simple games, and such. Water, fireworks, explosives taking out buildings, whatever came to mind could be put together right away as the thoughts unfolded. It wasn't like having to think of one part then work through it and then think about the next part after the first part was done.
Anyway, the point is, Linux can be over whelming. I know many people are interested in Linux, but watch people who are comfortable with it, and it all just looks like magic. I have been using Linux for several years now, and I still see people do clever things that appear "magical". Maybe that is why Macs are so popular. I don't think there is anything I have ever seen done on a mac that couldn't be copied by a monkey. Maybe that is the appeal. One simple way to do certain things that people want to do with their computer that make them look cool. But while mac is much like a "choose your own adventure" novel, Linux can feel like pencil and paper, but give it a little time and energy, it is more like Harold's Purple Crayon [amazon.com].
I can understand that some people just want the choose your own adventure. I get that. But Linux enables your computer to be a tool, and as with any complex piece of machinery, the novice needs a teacher. Just because its complex and there is much to learn doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the machine. It means people need help. This is why I feel the Linux community is so strong. It is necessary for people to share their knowledge. It requires upstream developers to hang out in their own irc channel. It requires LOTS of third party documentation to a
Re:Expected (Score:3, Interesting)
I've always had to provide near constant support for my mom's Windows PC, from 95, to 98, to XP, to Vista.
She's also had a Linux laptop for the last 3 years. The extent of support I gave her with it was helping her eBay a new battery and telling her where to get the Ubuntu ISO and how to burn it.
She installed it herself, configured it herself and manages the system quite fine on her own. That little 1Ghz P3 with 512MB of RAM runs circles around her brand new Vista system.
Plenty of blame to go around (Score:3, Interesting)
Assuming the version of events in the article are correct, then I blame Dell first.
Dell's job should be to serve the customer and get them what they want, since Dell can't possibly guess what they need. Talking someone into using something they are not familiar with is a misplaced form of advocacy. It is as bad as talking people into buying something they don't need.
That she payed a whopping $1100 for a laptop makes it even worse. Since she is a bit of a ludite, I expect the computer will not be used for extreme graphics or number crunching. So she probably overpaid by as much as $500 versus what she really needed. However this was her choice, and her bad. She should have asked savvy friends for advice on this purchase, or done some research on "the intenets".
I cannot blame her for complaining about the verizon CD. That's how that stuff is sold, and even many so called "power users" would not know how to configure that stuff if the CD didn't do it automatically for them. I find it hard to blame Verizon as well, since it is non-trivial to do automatic setup via CD for linux. Maybe something clever could be done, but there will always be some that fall between the cracks.
Ultimately I like to blame Dell here. If their sales interface was better, she would not only have gotten what she wanted, and maybe even what she needed.
I am a big ubuntu fan myself, but find it idiotic that other fans pretend to know what is best for others. If ubuntu was an exact drop in replacement for windows, then I don't see what the advocacy is about, and if it isn't then someone who wants whatever they are used to should be allowed to do so. (someone might argue that Vista is even more different from what she is used to than ubuntu, but that would be Microsoft's problem, not a problem of misplaced advocacy)
I also question this bad habit of many ludites to call customer service for help. Don't people have friends anymore, or are they ashamed to ask for help?
I am also disturbed that the default kneejerk response to this story is even more ubuntu advocacy. Ironic when considering that misplaced advocacy is what gave ubuntu a black eye here in the first place. Way to go morons, in destroying for an OS that I love.
Re:Details? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Expected (Score:3, Interesting)
I've run into this a lot. When someone calls me and says a tech is coming out to help them get set up, I tell them to refuse to let them put the CD in. There's no need.
I've been to many places, with many providers, usually with my laptop, waiting for them to come install. One place blatantly refused to install without a Windows computer, so I dug up an old Win95 workstation, and they were satisfied. A few times, they've had me sign a small waiver saying that I refused the install CD.
For anything but dialup accounts, there's nothing to it. Most OS's come set up for DHCP on the ethernet. Plug the cable in, turn it on, and you're done. The CD is usually extra "assistance" software. I've never gotten down and dirty enough to dissect their software, but I'd be pretty sure there is a good bit of spyware in it. I know one vendor provided a CD that included something resembling GoToMyPC. Really, do you want to open up your computer so anyone at the ISP can log into your computer? The only reason to ask the ISP for help is when the connection doesn't work, at which time that is a moot point.
This lady didn't ask for a non-Windows machine though. She may have unintentionally ordered the wrong thing. Mistakes happen, they should have let her return it for what she wanted.
If (IF) she wanted to keep Linux, they should have told her where to click for Abiword/OpenOffice, and that it was the equivalent of MSWord, except totally free.
If (IF) she wanted to keep Linux, Verizon should have been able to tell her that "all you do is plug the cable in", rather than saying it was impossible on anything but Windows.
So, lots of mistakes made a news story. She doesn't know Linux yet, but hopefully she'll be more interested in learning in the future. The reps at Dell and Verizon should have been more cooperative. If they had been, and knew what they were doing, then this wouldn't have been a story at all. That is, unless it turns out that it's actually something choreographed by Microsoft, trying to lock down their market share.
Re:Expected (Score:5, Interesting)
I have a Verizon FiOS network, with 128 IP's, that we're running a small hosting business on. There's a small problem on the line, so I asked for a field tech to come out and replace their outside box. No big deal, just come, swap out your slightly defective unit for a good one, so it doesn't become a bigger problem in the near future. We're getting the occasional CRC error on the uplink, and have already swapped the equipment on our side.
They asked what OS I was running. "Well, about a dozen Linux machines, and a half dozen Win2k/S2k3 machines."
They asked "So are you running XP or Vista"
I had to start over. "This is a business FiOS line. We're using it for a small hosting business. We have many machines. We have 128 IP's from you because of that. "
Then they asked me which of their routers we are using. {sigh} Their routers are crap. They provide us with a Cat5 ethernet cable from their demarc outside. That goes directly into a Cisco Catalyst 2924XL-EN.
"Oh, if you're not using our router, we can't help you. Maybe you can call Cisco."
I blew up inside, but very politely told them that I am a Cisco Certified Network Administrator, and I have worked as a higher level Cisco Engineer for the past 12 years. I'll be more than happy to help you with this matter. By evaluating the errors, there appears to be a failure on your side of the link, which would be your demarc on the wall. If you could be kind enough to have a field technician come out and swap the demarc, I would be very happy.
That got me put on hold. He came back, apparently with one of their "network engineers" on chat with him. He'd type what I said, wait for a response, and then read it back to me. Over the next half hour, the engineer finally told me that it was obviously a routing issue somewhere on the Internet, and I should run traceroutes to see where it is, but it's definitely outside of Verizon's control. I told the CSR that was still on the phone with me echoing the "network engineer" responses, that the "network engineer" was a complete blithering idiot, who wouldn't be able to diagnose a network problem to save his life. There's no way in hell that a CRC errror comes from anywhere but either the two endpoints of a cable, one of which is my switch, and the other their demarc, or the cable in between. They made it clear that the cable is property of Verizon, or I'd swap that too.
Ahhh, now I'm worked up. I'm going to start calling them again. It's been several weeks of trying to get them to address this. I'm tempted to hit it with a stun gun, just so it'll be completely down, and they can come out and fix it. Too bad I don't own a stun gun. :)
Re:Expected (Score:3, Interesting)
I bought an EEEPC, turned it on, selected my wireless network, and proceeded to complete an online course at my local University - including typing papers - with 0 changes to the computer. That EEEPC runs Linux. Firefox was the browser (which several online programs will complain about right off the bat) and Open Office was the word processor. I exported the documents as PDFs, but the exported word documents would've worked just as well. Ok, I technically did install wireshark and tcpdump, since it was a network security course and I needed to use those, but I'm fairly confident that this woman wasn't attempting to take a graduate-level network security course. And it was easier to install those on Linux than Windows...
I've recently installed EEEBuntu on the machine, and like it better - but even that, with the similar easy interface, uses the same programs to do the same things. This woman was clearly unable to learn things, and would've had the same problems with Windows. For example, a new computer often comes with a new MS Office, and new MS Office formats often don't open in older MS Office setups (like a University may well have). My wife was in an online course a year or so ago where there were students having troubles through the semester because their MS Word/PowerPoint versions were newer than the school's version, and documents wouldn't open. Open Office would not have had that issue, as it doesn't usually export to the latest format...
Re:Expected (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Humor? Entertainment? (Score:1, Interesting)
And then, apparently, her solution [...] was to call the local news!
Which leads me to think that she is on the Microsoft paybook. Her story perfectly fits in the MS war against Linux and open source, and it needs as much media coverage as possible. Remember, spread the FUD.
This is more effective publicity for Apple. It paints Linux as too dificult to use, and Windows as the overbearing monster you can't escape. The whole article reads like the black and white segment in an infomercial of the user fumbling helplessly with Main Brand W and Alternative L as the narrator begs the question "Isn't there a better way?"
Re:Expected (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Expected (Score:3, Interesting)
I've definitely noticed formatting changes when using OOo rather than Word, but not enough to really worry me. It certainly would annoy some people though. I think I've even seen cases where the page padding was off enough that a formerly one-page document became two pages.
The worst case I've seen is our timesheet spreadsheet. Functionally it works, however quite a bit of the formatting goes haywire. The timesheet has the day names written vertically spanning a few rows, which OOo doesn't seem to support at all. I also haven't been able to work out how to merge cells in OOo Calc, which should a pretty straightforward thing.
Recently we received a call sheet in Excel format for some EMC hardware. The phone number to call doesn't appear when opened in Calc. I haven't investigated why (it's just a call sheet after all, and I have a VM with XP + Office 2007 handy) but it is definitely not FUD.
As much as I love OOo and use it in preference to MS Office, it definitely isn't 100% compatible.
Never underestimate phone company stupidity (Score:3, Interesting)
I have a client who has bellsouth DSL - a business account with a static IP. The ISP owned DSL modem crapped out, and they dutifully sent a technician to replace it. Unfortunately, the new DSL modem is configured like a NAT router to block all incoming connections - and we have no access to it.
I was able to restore email and ssh service via openvpn, but it has been a month, and the client, my boss, and I have tried unsuccessfully to convince half a dozen bellsouth employees that a static IP is not much use with no incoming connections.
At this point, I've advised the client to either downgrade to dynamic IP and demand a refund for the months overpayment, or see if the cable company is any better. I just can't believe how many utterly clueless "tech" people they manage to field.