Star Wars TV Show Tainted By Memories of Jar Jar 474
bowman9991 writes "Can George Lucas' new Star Wars TV series, the first Star Wars spin off with real actors, atone for the flawed follow-ups to his original classics? Producer Rick McCallum calls the new series 'much darker,' a 'much more character-based series' and 'more adult,' while George Lucas himself calls it more like the first Star Wars film. The new TV show takes place in the 'dark times' between the last prequel Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith and Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope, when most of the Jedi and anti-emperor politicians were hunted down and killed. The characters of Boba Fett, C-3PO, and the Emperor Palpatine will return, and casting has now begun. Mark Hamill, the actor who played Luke Skywalker from the original movies, believes George Lucas lost his way, 'making it bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger until you're just exploding with special effects all over the screen like some fireworks display,' but thinks the new show is a 'positive' step forward. Hopefully George Lucas can wipe the memory of Jar Jar Binks, Anakin and Padme's romance, his shameless merchandising, and some lame attempts at humor from everyone's minds once and for all."
Hey, Polyanna (Score:4, Insightful)
Hopefully George Lucas can wipe the memory of Jar Jar Binks, Anakin and Padme's romance, his shameless merchandising, and some lame attempts at humor from everyone's minds once and for all.
Don't bet on it.
The first is still the best (Score:5, Insightful)
I recall watching the original Ep.4 as a 12 year old. The bar scene was particularly intense because it showed humans as a bit player in a big, bad universe. Fast forward to the updated remake with the CGI singer - just another funny looking alien to laugh at. The two headed announcer in the pod race scene is another example - funny aliens who exist primarily for the amusement of a human dominated universe. I don't think Lucas ever grasped this difference.
Easy, George, Let Somebody Else Direct It (Score:5, Insightful)
George, there's an easy way to go back to the "good old days" before the prequels (if you haven't seen the 7-part, 1+-hour-long review of the Phantom Menace on youtube, go now and find it). Let somebody else direct them, and you just be a producer. It's clear that nobody on your staff is willing to contradict your "artistic vision," and thus we end up with crap results. Let somebody else direct, and then you throw in some criticism for a back-and-forth, and maybe these won't suck.
But smart money would be on them being terrible.
Re:Must be said (Score:3, Insightful)
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Finding Star Wars books that weren't in the "young adult" section used to be much easier, and they were even decent pulp, if not great novels. Lucas is a shitty writer and horrible director. If he writes the first year of episodes I can guarantee I won't be watching any of it.
Reading the article mentioned they wanted it to be like "Young Indiana Jones", which I was surprised to hear about for the first time. If it has the same success, I suspect this star wars "series" won't last very long.
"Much darker" my ass (Score:5, Insightful)
These days "Much darker than its predecessor" has become Hollywood doublespeak. It means nothing. "This Harry Potter movie will be much darker than the last one" is just the studio's way of trying to get more adults to come see it (at the end of the day, it still ends up being the same PG-13 rated CGI-fest).
Here's a good rule of thumb, if they have to *say* it's much darker, it probably isn't. If you want to see if it's just doublespeak, ask the simple follow-up question "But it's still suitable for kids, right?" If they fall over themselves saying yes, then you know the "much darker" thing is just a con.
Re:The first is still the best (Score:3, Insightful)
The "first" film was the best because you were 12 years old at the time. Talk to a 12 year old now and they love pod races.
Nostalgia is a lie. I liked Jedi the most because it appealed to me at my age at that time.
We hate the prequels because we expected to see them like we were all 10 years old again. The problem was we are all now in our 30s for example trying to watch a film made for young kids and expecting to see it like a young kid. The fact is the prequels were not made for us, they were made for kids and teens. The same way the original 3 were made. Have a 30 year old watch Star Wars for the first time and, on the few times I've been able to find someone who has never seen it, gotten the same 'meh' response I had to the Phantom Menace.
We like Firefly\Serentity because we can RELATE to it better. That is the key. My nephew loves the first 3 movies and is rather 'meh' about the last 3.
For all those "stop raping my childhood"... it's not your childhood. Your childhood is gone, past, finished... you are an adult now and you can't go back. it's now you children's childhood so "stop suppressing their childhood by trying to force your childhood upon them."
Let them reinvent Transformers, Thundercats, Voltron, Star Wars, Star Trek, Gobots, Silverhawks, Speed Racer, DBZ, and anything else they want to. None of you seem pissed that Barbie keeps getting rebooted every generation or would you prefer she stayed in the Kitchen barefoot and pregnate while Ken worked his union job driving a bus and threatening to punch Barbie "To the moon?"
Re:The first is still the best (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The first is still the best (Score:5, Insightful)
There's an easy test to your theory. Go find some people who saw all of the movies as adults and ask them what they think. So far, everyone I've asked who was an adult for both sets of movies (including a bunch of friends in the office and my dad, a lifelong sci fi fan) thought the original films were much better.
I'm not saying they were masterpieces. But chalking it all up to the audience having grown up is just willfully denying what everybody really knows.
Re:The first is still the best (Score:5, Insightful)
Have a 30 year old watch Star Wars for the first time and, on the few times I've been able to find someone who has never seen it, gotten the same 'meh' response I had to the Phantom Menace.
Anyone who hasn't seen Star Wars by the time they turn 30 are not going to enjoy it. Not because it doesn't appeal to 30 year olds, but because if that person was likely to enjoy fantasy/sci-fi movies he or she would have watched the movie a long time ago. It's not like the Star Wars movies are a well kept secret.
Back in 1977 there were literally millions of 30+ year olds queuing up to see the movie (and enjoying it!).
The thing is, the original Star Wars was a movie for all ages. Episode One (in particular) was a kids movie with little regard for the kids' parents.
Re:The first is still the best (Score:4, Insightful)
Given the nature of the subject matter in the prequels it SHOULD have been something that a 30 year old could relate to better.
It should have been more Dune and less Howard the Duck.
Re:The first is still the best (Score:3, Insightful)
It has nothing to do with "Star Wars being for children only".
If Star Wars was only appreciated by 12 year old kids in '77, it would never have been so successful. The original Star Wars was successful in adults, not only in kids.
Nowadays Star Wars-like films do not appeal to 30 year old adults, because expectations are different. Society has changed. What was acceptable back then it is not acceptable now. It has nothing to do with "SW being for kids".
And that's why successful franchises are being reinvented, as you say. Today's tastes are different than those 33 years go.
Re:The first is still the best (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:OMG, Luke Skywalker is right! (Score:5, Insightful)
I, for one, am tired of the anti-Jar Jar nerdrage (Score:2, Insightful)
coming from 40-somethings whose prepubescent selves likely giggled with glee when a bunch of teddy bears with spears and slingshots defeated an Imperial garrison.
It's what the Star Wars fans want (Score:4, Insightful)
We want some drama and action. It's a simple formula really. We don't need "comic relief" and especially not in a TV series.
But there is another thing wrong with the prequels and this series as well. Unless nearly all characters are completely new, we know who will live and who will die -- it's worse than the guys named "smith and jones" wearing red shirts on Star Trek. We KNOW the characters will live and in what state they will be in by the time Episode 4 comes around. (I think the family guy star wars spoof said it plainly and accurately when it was said "we have most of the major characters in this story on this ship. I'm pretty sure we'll all make it through just fine" or something like that.) Not knowing what will happen next is an important factor in a good story.
Will Darth Vader die? Nope! Will he turn away from the dark side? Nope! (Might be tempted here and there I presume.) Will he remember that he built C3PO?
Now here's a question -- will characters from "The Force Unleashed" be in this series??? Will there be aspects of X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter and related games in this series? I seriously hope so -- those were great games with great stories.
This could lead to some interesting story ideas (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The first is still the best (Score:2, Insightful)
There are other films that i loved as a kid that don't do it for me now. I absolutely loved Disney's The Black Hole. I've seen it recently and it's not good. It does feature some pretty impressive spacecraft models though. I thought Krull was the coolest shit ever, eh, it's not so good anymore. I think we can recognize when something was good vs when something was just overwhelming us as kids.
When i watch star wars, yeah, it's nostaligic. It ruled my childhood. But it looks dated. The setpieces are stuck in the 70's. the acting is often stilted and hamfisted. However there's also a solid, if simple, story there. The motivation for the characters makes sense. There is a sense of danger and discovery. I think it's a better film than the prequels, weather i'm a kid or not.
Star Wars wasn't just popular with kids either. It captured the imagination of the world. Adults were seeing it again and again. It's imagery was showing up in adult settings like sports events and SNL.
It probably continues to influence movies today. The reboot of star trek seems to be aimed at making it more star wars like with dog fighting spacecraft and sword fights.
It's not citizen kane, but i think it was a very revolutionary and influencial film. The prequels were not.
Re:OMG, Luke Skywalker is right! (Score:2, Insightful)
For some reason, I have a bad feeling about that.
All hail Irvin Kershner, god of light and joy! (Score:5, Insightful)
No fan will ever forget Jar-Jar, or indeed any mistake Lucas has ever made. Hating Star Wars is now an integral part of liking Star Wars. Fans will never let it go, regardless of the quality of future product. They'll continue to enthusiastically shove C-3PO cereal into their mouths, yowling "this cereal tastes so awful it raped my childhood!" until the goddamn sun goes dark.
Re:The first is still the best (Score:3, Insightful)
You can make a good film, and children will like it without the need for inserting slapstick cartoon characters with the mental capacity of a 4 year old, but putting those in will turn away adults though. Children don't necessarily care about or appreciate good acting, coherent plots, and subtlety, but including those things doesn't necessarily turn kids away. The first three films had a lot of the former and only a bit of the latter, whereas the last three films had a lot of the former and almost none of the latter.
Give us a new story! (Score:4, Insightful)
Dear George,
Look, I was a huge Star Wars nerd back in the day. I saw the original 'Star Wars', like, 1000 times in the theatre, and about a hojillion times on VHS. I had all the toys - it was easier to count the things I didn't have in the little Star Wars catalog/pamphlet that came with the toys, than count the things I did have. Loved 'Empire', and tried my best to love 'Jedi' even though it had dancing Ewoks in it. Honestly, though, you lost me with Episode 1, and totally killed that Star Wars geek in me with Episodes 2-3.
You won me back (somewhat) with 'The Clone Wars' animated series. I think it's that I don't really mind cheesy dialog when spoken by CGI-animated puppets in a CGI-animated show. (Note the difference between that and Jar Jar.) I really dig this show, and I watch it every week.
But I'm really worried about your plans to do a show about the "Dark Times" between Episodes 3-4. We know how that ends; you end up with Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie, Ben, Darth, and the gang. I don't want to see Luke Skywalker grow up, I don't want to know what it was like when he got his first pimple or kissed his first girl (or Jawa, whatever they do on Tatooine for entertainment.) I don't want to see how they built the first Imperial Star Destroyer, or installed the freaking air conditioning system in the Death Star.
If you must do something in the Star Wars universe, please please please give us a new story. What happens after the Empire crumbles, who takes charge then, how does the new Jedi order come about? There's a whole Expanded Universe Storyline you can play with there. And we don't know how any of it ends.
Sincerely,
a worried fan (reformed)
Re:JARJAR's happy fun adventures of whimsy!!! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:OMG, Luke Skywalker is right! (Score:1, Insightful)
Weren't Episodes 1-3 also set in a best possible time frame before they saw the light of day? The only way this could be good would be if it were left to the imagination.
Re:The first is still the best (Score:3, Insightful)
Anakin comes off as too much of a kid, which kinda ruins the buildup to turn him into vader. He comes of more as a whining brat that a jedi corrupted by fear and anger.
Anakin as we saw him in the prequels turning into Vader as we saw him in the original trilogy was so beyond implausible that it hurts. Vader was pure evil. Like you said, he was "a cold and heartless tyrant who will kill even those closest to him merely because they disappoint him". Anakin was a whiny brat with some questionable politics that he didn't really seem to hold too closely to anyway who became bitter and jaded because his wife died. It's like we need a whole other trilogy to find out how the bitter kid from Episode III turned into the evil tyrant of Episode IV-VI, because as it stands, there just is no connection.
Of course, Vader's turn-around at the end of ROTJ was just as contrived.
Re:The first is still the best (Score:4, Insightful)
The "first" film was the best because you were 12 years old at the time.
I am so fucking sick of this patronizing line being trotted out and modded up on every single fucking Star Wars thread.
I probably saw the first film when I was three- or four-years old. I was too young to remember, but my dad told me he picked up the laserdisc shortly after it came out in 1982 and let me watch with him. Honestly, I loved the toys more than the movie.
But now, almost thirty years older, I still like the first film the best.
The are so many fucking legitimate reasons for that, you ignorant tool:
* It is a story told cleanly and effectively. It isn't cluttered with too many plot-lines, a major failing of the prequels. ESB, good as it is, begins the slow descent into plot-line hell with Luke separated from Han and Leia. RotJ cleans things up a little, but the prequels are absolutely, mindnumbingly confused about what story they are trying to tell.
* The characterization is fantastic and the acting is good. ESB and RotJ simply manage to not completely fuck up the characters introduced in Star Wars. Who can deny Han Solo and Darth Vadar are two of the greatest characters of all time? Harrison Ford's portrayal of Han is rightfully legendary. And Vadar wouldn't have been nearly as fearsome without David Prowse's physicality and James Earl Jones voice. Mark Hamill's acting throughout the original trilogy is underrated, btw. He's winy and annoying in the "first" one because Luke is a fucking brat. Carrie Fisher's Princess Leia is no Disney princess: yeah, she's hot, but she takes no shit and can use a gun. Again, ESB just continues the character development begun in Star Wars and none of the other films introduce a character worth remembering or feature performances worth watching again.
* The sound. Holy shit the sound. Blasters, light sabers, even ships in space. "There's no sound in space," you say. I say fuck you these are the greatest space sounds ever. Do any of the other films introduce any better sounds? Do any use the sounds introduced in Star Wars better?
* The score is a modern classic. The later films introduced new themes and variations on the themes introduced in Star Wars, but none could do better than the first.
* The cinematography is some of the best ever. From the opening shot of the star destroyer filling the screen, to the landscape shots on Tatooine, to the claustrophobic interiors of the ships and Death Star, to the trench run at the end, it is some of the best ever. Yes, many of the shots are homages to earlier works, but the elevate and often exceed the originals.
* Do I have to even mention the production: set design, costumes, aliens, etc? Fucking fuck.
In conclusion, fuck you. Star Wars is a fucking classic film and a great work of art. Fuck you, you ignorant cunt. You think Firefly would ever have existed without Star Wars? You think 30-year-olds "meh" reaction to Star Wars might be because they're your friends and you've self-selected people as dense as you are? Or that they've been exposed to thirty-plus years of films that have been hugely influenced by the original film?
If you can't watch Star Wars as an adult, appreciate it as a masterpiece of film-making, and understand why someone could love it as their favorite film of all time, let alone their favorite "Star Wars" movie, you are a pitiful, pathetic person. Fuck.
Re:The first is still the best (Score:3, Insightful)
We like Firefly\Serentity because we can RELATE to it better. That is the key. My nephew loves the first 3 movies and is rather 'meh' about the last 3.
Any movie or book is about what moves your emotions. If you're not moved, you're going to come away with a feeling of "meh". Episode IV had the tried and true (some would say overdone) story of a youth going on a great adventure, and with the help of a handsome and wily rogue, rescuing a princess from the dark lord. I liked it, and still like it, for the highs and lows, the humor, and for Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher's characters. Even C-3P0 and R2D2 had some great lines. The movie made me laugh ("I am not a committee!") and cringe ("Shut down all the compactors on the detention level!") and cheer ("Let's blow this thing, kid."). Episodes 1-3 did not. They only had one great scene and that was the lightsaber battle at the end of episode 1 with Darth Maul.
You can look at a modern trilogy for the same blaring difference: Pirates of the Caribbean. First one was great -- humor, wit, action, subtle glances, great characters and great lines. The next two seemed to be completely different films from the first with the same actors and costumes. Slapstick comedy ruled...all we needed was a slide trumbone and a cymbal for when Depp would fall and a laugh track. They lost all sense of what everyone enjoyed about the first one. I wouldn't even say they "dumbed it down" for the kids. They just didn't put any work into the script and relied on silly comedy and special effects. Kids appreciate humor, even subtle humor. I daresay they went from British humor (understated) to American humor (brash, in your face, "Buy a truckload today!")
If a movie makes me laugh, cry, cheer...then I generally remember it as "worth watching". If it doesn't, I forget about it pretty quickly. Firefly, to come full circle, and Serenity, had scripts that George Lucas would kill for. Never since the first Star Wars was I so enthralled with a sci-fi movie than Serenity (I saw the movie first).
Re:The first is still the best (Score:2, Insightful)
I see this meme a lot but I was there in the 70s and it just ain't so. People of ALL AGES were lined up around the block (literally) to see those movies and many saw them multiple times. Going to see a movie you thought especially badass several times was more common then because video rental and VCRs were still five years from being common consumer items.
The first three movies were hotly anticipated because there wasn't anything else like them at the time and they were very fun action/adventure films. Kids watched them. Teens watched them. 20, 30, 40, 50, etc somethings watched and enjoyed them......
In the years since, we've gotten cable, video rental, internet video, gaming consoles and many many more ways to spend an entertainment dollar. The multimillion dollar special effects extravaganza become much more common too and most ARE indeed marketed at teens and twenties since they form most of the shrinking audience for movie theaters. But it is a mistake to assume that just because the original Star Wars Trilogy was a special effects action extravaganza that everything true of one today applies to it WHEN IT WAS FIRST RELEASED.
Anything Star Wars that comes out these days has to be marketed and survive in a much different environment than the original trilogy.
Now if you want to argue that the first movies were re-edited with extra little-kid insipness and the last three made with to be purely insipid then I'll agree with you. I would also agree that even the un-"enhanced" trilogy is more Space Opera than sci-fi but what of it? They were some of the summer movies of their day and even fully mature adults today don't mind turning their brains off for an hour and a half and taking one in.
Re:The first is still the best (Score:5, Insightful)
I think a good test is to explain what Episode 1 and Episode 4 were about, and which seems most likely to appeal to kids. I don't see how someone could honestly expect children to understand the plot to Episode 1, or even adults or George Lucas himself.
Episode 4: A poor water farmboy has dreams of leaving the farm, visits a hermit who exposes him to an exciting greater world that needs saving. Returning home he sees his family has been killed, leaving him with no ties to home and thrusting him into a grand adventure where he meets a rogue and a princess, learns magic and blows up an evil Empire's greatest weapon, saving untold planets.
Episode 1: Some warrior diplomats come to discuss a trade dispute, trade federation blockades planet, then for some reason starts a war. Diplomats try to warn the princess, but instead end up coming across some aliens before getting to the princess and leaving the planet. Princess needs to convince the Senate to intervene. On the way to the Senate they stop at a planet and come across a little kid who races pods and has potential. After the Senate does nothing, these same people, with a kid in tow, go back to the planet and start a big fight. The day is saved when the kid they picked up accidently flies a ship into a space station and blows it up.
The only reason I could like one over the other is because of the age I was when I saw it...
Re:It's far too late... (Score:3, Insightful)
the original star wars movies were extremely cheesy and mark hamill, carrie fisher, et al., were terrible actors. when i watch the original movies i get chills of embarrassment for them. at the time episodes 4-6 were packed with state of the art flashy special effects. as for the story ... let's see. a moon-size space station that is destroyed from a tiny fighter with a single shot ... and then destroyed again (whoops!). a planet of teddy bears that defeat the hardened imperial stormtroopers? i can go on.
the real difference between episodes 4-6 and 1-3 is *you*, not the films. when i saw episodes 4-6 i was a child. when you are a child, you don't tend to get caught up in bad acting and less than stellar plots. your mind is flexible enough to fill in the blanks, skip inconsistencies, and expand on ideas. you just need a theme. now that you are an adult, you want the whole thing laid in front of you perfectly and when you don't get it you whine all over the internet about how mr. lucas committed a crime against nature.
fine if you don't like episodes 1-3, but don't pretend that 4-6 were any better.
personally, i liked episodes 4-6. the acting bothered me to some degree. there were some aspects of the story like the anakin-padme love affair, jar-jar, and the boy anakin parts. i'm willing to get over that and enjoy one of a very few decent sci-fi movies.
Re:OMG, Luke Skywalker is right! (Score:4, Insightful)
Only if you have the Batman writers and BSG production crew beat the BSG writers to death with baseball bats.
Re:OMG, Luke Skywalker is right! (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't care how the stuff that I like was made, I just like the stuff that I like.
Re:The first is still the best (Score:3, Insightful)
If you can't think of any reasons why Star Wars was an objectively better made movie than Phantom Menace then you're hopeless.
You can relate to Firefly/Serenity better because it has better characters. Star Wars had great characters. It had characters even no-name actors could bring life to and make memorable. Phantom Menace has characters so boring even outstanding actors can't do anything with them.
You can relate to Firefly because it has intelligent dialogue that developed the characters. Star Wars can't measure up here, but it had quite a few good moments of banter and dialogue that made the characters seem like real people you could relate to. Phantom Menace was a disaster in this respect.
You can relate to Firefly because it had plots that got from Point A to Point B in a reasonable manner. Star Wars had a classic story told with tight pacing and without extraneous crap. Phantom Menace had a train wreck of a plot which it's completely laughable that a child could even follow or care about, with random segues thrown in because Lucas had to shoe-horn in all the characters in even if it made no sense for them to show up.
Basically, the reason Firefly and Star Wars are better than the prequels isn't because of age groups they're targeting vs when I saw them. There's lots of movies "targeted at kids" that I absolutely love, because they're great movies. The reason they're better is because they are well made and tell good stories with good characters. Lucas once knew how to make good movies. Even Jedi is a well crafted movie. The prequels go against every precept of quality moviemaking except in some of the most basic mechanical aspects.
Re:It's far too late... (Score:2, Insightful)
They also had no consistent evil we loved to hate. Oh Vader how I miss hating your vile evilness.