Star was has been ridden to death, then some, and then some more, until only bloody goop was ground across the floor. By Jar Jar Abrams nonetheless, who never managed to tie any story together at the end in his life.
All trying to ride on the former glory of movies barely anyone who watches them even knows anymore. Fan fiction level space opera, written by a teenager who thought he got sci-fi because he put a knights and magic" fantasy story in the "future^Wpast.
The first two and a half movies were fun when I was a kid, but that's about it. They appear silly now.
I really like the originals now, but you have to watch the "despecialized edition", the Lucas versions ruin everything. The practical effects, great banter between the actors, and plot that tells a story with actual character arcs: it's all lacking today.
Let it rest! Come up with something *actually* new, ya fuckin Hollywood cokeheads!
That would require two things Hollywood can't do: take a risk, and hire a writer based on talent. But let's not forget, Hollywood didn't think Star Wars would work either, it was just "spring filler". What we've really lost these days is those "filler" movies: movies that the studio gives a small budget and says "do whatever, just release on time", and so are the creative vision of on man, not a committee. 95% of them were crap, but that's where the great "something new"s came from.
plot that tells a story with actual character arcs: it's all lacking today.
One of the biggest issues people here seem to have with TLJ is that it has character arcs. Instead of just being basically the same person but in different situations like the original trilogy, the characters actually changed significantly during the movie.
In the original trilogy most of the major development happened off-screen between movies. Luke was a whiny kid through the whole first movie, then a whiny Jedi in training through the whole second movie, and then a Jedi convinced he could redeem Vader through the whole third movie. All the transitions, when he decided to get serious and become a Jedi or when he finished his training and developed the confidence seen when he goes to Jabba's palace all happened between the films.
One of the biggest issues people here seem to have with TLJ is that it has character arcs.
Oh? Whose fundamental flaw was tested, and whether they could overcome that flaw determined the outcome of the movie? Because I don't remember that ever happening. It almost happened with Finn, but: denied.
Heck, other than Finn who even has a flaw in the new SW films? Remember a flaw is not a weakness, a flaw is something we look down on a character for, like being a racist, or being selfish to the point it hurts others, or being a coward. Kylo Ren maybe? But I had to search to remember his name, he's
Whose fundamental flaw was tested, and whether they could overcome that flaw determined the outcome of the movie?
Poe was reckless and obsessed with desperate, high stakes attacks that were costing the rebels too many lives. If his mutiny had succeeded and his plan been put into action they would all have died.
Finn started out just looking to escape, with no connection to the Rebellion. With Rose's help he came to understand why the Rebellion was fighting the Empire and why it mattered. Later he makes the sa
Poe was reckless and obsessed with desperate, high stakes attacks that were costing the rebels too many lives. If his mutiny had succeeded and his plan been put into action they would all have died.
Yes, you've just decribed the absence of a character arc. His failure did not affect the outcome, His did not change as a result. Also, I think most of the audience saw him as in the right, saw it doesn't count as a flaw.
Kylo Ren defeated the Emperor and became leader of the galaxy by defeating Rey's attempts to turn him to her side.
At no point was Kylo's temper relevant to the outcome of the film. And he didn't change. No arc.
Rey realized that she couldn't rely on Luke to save the Rebels.
Rey has no flaws. The few times she hasn't easily succeeded at whatever she's tried, it's been because of forces beyond her control (e.g., Luke not instantly liking her).
Luke himself goes from jaded and thinking that the Jedi and the Force can do no good to using the last of his strength to save his sister and the Rebels
A character doesn't directly have to affect the outcome of the film to have a character arc. That's not what an arc is.
Anyway, Poe has a negative outcome on the movies for the rebels. A lot of it was setting up the next movie, much like Empire. The big reveal in that movie went nowhere until the next one.
A character doesn't directly have to affect the outcome of the film to have a character arc. That's not what an arc is.
Well, words mean what we want to to mean, but I'm using the term in the way that's relevant to film scripts (or drama, in general). Don't confuse character development with an arc.
The very core of story structure is that you have a character with a flaw, and that flaw is tested, and the ending is either happy or unhappy depending on the character's choice. It's called an "arc" because it's expected to be a down-then-up arc for a comedy (in the Aristotelian sense, not necessarily the haha sense), or up-the
A negative outcome? The only reason that the worthless general's plan worked at all is because the First Order's fleet was commanded by short bus graduates who all had CTE. Against an opponent with even a quantum of competence it would have failed miserably.
Kylo Ren maybe? But I had to search to remember his name, he's so bland.
That's sort of the character, though. His big flaw is he wants to be the big, bad guy, but he's really just a poser. He postures like he's Darth Vader, but he has temper tantrums. He even sounds like a wuss when he has his mask on. He's the goth kid, he's the edge lord. He's really the only character so far in the new trilogy that's interesting. I actually liked Laura Dern's character in the Last Jedi and thought she had potential, but they killed her off, so... so much for that.
Heck, other than Finn who even has a flaw in the new SW films?
One of the biggest issues people here seem to have with TLJ is that it has character arcs.
No, it's because nearly every element of the plot relies on the characters being stupid. If purple-haired general had actually told people she had a plan (not even what the plan was: just that there was a plan), the entire "finding the master codebreaker" plot wouldn't have existed. Also her plan was stupid because she had no idea if the first order would be conducting regular decloaking scans (since apparently it's super-easy for them to detect cloaked ships). If the Finn and Rose hadn't landed their ship in the middle of the beach (instead of, say, in a tall patch of weeds) during a covert infiltration mission, that plan would have worked. If Leia had ordered the bombers to return to the ship in the opening scene (instead of just ordering Poe back), that entire battle losing most of their bombers and fighters simply wouldn't have happened (Poe would have been forced to return without support). Hell, the first order could have ended the chase by not ordering Kylo back when he was attacking the Resistance ship, since he never seemed to be in any real danger (or they could have sent out bombers themselves, which presumably they have, even if they apparently don't have a single fast attack ship in their entire fleet).
Basically, the plot is fucking nonsense, from start to finish, with characters making obviously moronic decisions at nearly every stage. The only part that made sense was Luke and Rey, and that's saying something (considering how Luke's character basically contradicts everything that he'd learned in IV through VI). And even then, Luke coulda thought to mention "hey guys while I distract Kylo how bout you guys maybe try and escape, m'kay?"
Regarding Holdo she presumably did tell anyone who needed to know what the plan was. It's normal in a military setting for people who don't need to know not to be told stuff because that just increases the chances of the information leaking.
Poe had just been demoted and needed to learn to trust his superiors, to become a better solider instead of just a loose cannon.
Of course if people find out the plan was "Let's lead the empire right to the new base planet and hope they don't notice while I lead them off" I wouldn't blame them for being a bit skeptical. They could have at least scattered during their last jump so the flag ship doesn't go right by the planet with their new base on it. (Since they're sacrificing it anyway.)
It's normal in a military setting for people who don't need to know not to be told stuff
It's normal in a military setting for people to wear uniforms. In fact, that's the primary thing that distinguishes a military from brigands (terrorists). These guys are still supposed to be the legitimate post-Imperial government, right? If we instead take them as a rag-tag band of rebels without formal organization, who can't even manage uniforms, all improvising to survive, then Poe was obviously in the right.
But you're just a fan of tyranny, so it's a mystery to you why everyone was on Poe's side of
If Leia had ordered the bombers to return to the ship in the opening scene (instead of just ordering Poe back), that entire battle losing most of their bombers and fighters simply wouldn't have happened
As I remembered it the dreadnaught ship was the one that got taken out by the bombers. You figure if they didn't sacrifice the bombers the gun on that thing is going to cause massive damage to ships in the fleet.
All the transitions, when he decided to get serious and become a Jedi or when he finished his training and developed the confidence seen when he goes to Jabba's palace all happened between the films.
Yes, but they were all explained in/by the context of the films. And really, how much do people change in a couple of hours? Except when they get a hand cut off, that is.
The whole dramatic point of Empire was that Luke didn't change, and thus when tested against his flaw he failed, and the movie had an unhappy ending. That's a by-the-book tragedy. It's also the difference between a character arc, and character development.
I remember almost everything about the first Star Wars movie. I remember almost everything about the second Star Wars movie. I remember a lot of the third Star Wars movie.
I remember quite a bit about the 4th Star Wars movie, but the story seems kind of hazy in my memory. 5th and 6th movies, I recall scenes from and generally remember the story.
Every single movie after the 6th, I can barely even remember scenes or plot points. I recall one where a young woman seems to get off a desert type planet and had Han
What we've really lost these days is those "filler" movies: movies that the studio gives a small budget and says "do whatever, just release on time", and so are the creative vision of on man, not a committee. 95% of them were crap, but that's where the great "something new"s came from.
I did read an article recently about how the film industry has inadvertently forced a number of directors out of the business. The goal was not to get rid of those directors; that was a side effect of the industry being unwilling to fund various types of movies now. You now have two types of budgets: the big-budget $100m+ movies, and the micro-budget less-than-$5m movies. There's much less in between than their used to be, the mid-range market is dying. Folks like John Waters can't make a movie in that circ
With any luck, Netflix and Amazon and the like will be funding those mid-budget movies before too many years go by. They certainly have the movie for it, and don't know what to do with it.
"Life is a garment we continuously alter, but which never seems to fit."
-- David McCord
Seriously, who cares? (Score:3, Insightful)
Star was has been ridden to death, then some, and then some more, until only bloody goop was ground across the floor. By Jar Jar Abrams nonetheless, who never managed to tie any story together at the end in his life.
All trying to ride on the former glory of movies barely anyone who watches them even knows anymore. Fan fiction level space opera, written by a teenager who thought he got sci-fi because he put a knights and magic" fantasy story in the "future^Wpast.
The first two and a half movies were fun when
Re:Seriously, who cares? (Score:5, Interesting)
The first two and a half movies were fun when I was a kid, but that's about it. They appear silly now.
I really like the originals now, but you have to watch the "despecialized edition", the Lucas versions ruin everything. The practical effects, great banter between the actors, and plot that tells a story with actual character arcs: it's all lacking today.
Let it rest! Come up with something *actually* new, ya fuckin Hollywood cokeheads!
That would require two things Hollywood can't do: take a risk, and hire a writer based on talent. But let's not forget, Hollywood didn't think Star Wars would work either, it was just "spring filler". What we've really lost these days is those "filler" movies: movies that the studio gives a small budget and says "do whatever, just release on time", and so are the creative vision of on man, not a committee. 95% of them were crap, but that's where the great "something new"s came from.
Re:Seriously, who cares? (Score:5, Insightful)
plot that tells a story with actual character arcs: it's all lacking today.
One of the biggest issues people here seem to have with TLJ is that it has character arcs. Instead of just being basically the same person but in different situations like the original trilogy, the characters actually changed significantly during the movie.
In the original trilogy most of the major development happened off-screen between movies. Luke was a whiny kid through the whole first movie, then a whiny Jedi in training through the whole second movie, and then a Jedi convinced he could redeem Vader through the whole third movie. All the transitions, when he decided to get serious and become a Jedi or when he finished his training and developed the confidence seen when he goes to Jabba's palace all happened between the films.
Re: (Score:3)
One of the biggest issues people here seem to have with TLJ is that it has character arcs.
Oh? Whose fundamental flaw was tested, and whether they could overcome that flaw determined the outcome of the movie? Because I don't remember that ever happening. It almost happened with Finn, but: denied.
Heck, other than Finn who even has a flaw in the new SW films? Remember a flaw is not a weakness, a flaw is something we look down on a character for, like being a racist, or being selfish to the point it hurts others, or being a coward. Kylo Ren maybe? But I had to search to remember his name, he's
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Whose fundamental flaw was tested, and whether they could overcome that flaw determined the outcome of the movie?
Poe was reckless and obsessed with desperate, high stakes attacks that were costing the rebels too many lives. If his mutiny had succeeded and his plan been put into action they would all have died.
Finn started out just looking to escape, with no connection to the Rebellion. With Rose's help he came to understand why the Rebellion was fighting the Empire and why it mattered. Later he makes the sa
Re: (Score:2)
Poe was reckless and obsessed with desperate, high stakes attacks that were costing the rebels too many lives. If his mutiny had succeeded and his plan been put into action they would all have died.
Yes, you've just decribed the absence of a character arc. His failure did not affect the outcome, His did not change as a result. Also, I think most of the audience saw him as in the right, saw it doesn't count as a flaw.
Kylo Ren defeated the Emperor and became leader of the galaxy by defeating Rey's attempts to turn him to her side.
At no point was Kylo's temper relevant to the outcome of the film. And he didn't change. No arc.
Rey realized that she couldn't rely on Luke to save the Rebels.
Rey has no flaws. The few times she hasn't easily succeeded at whatever she's tried, it's been because of forces beyond her control (e.g., Luke not instantly liking her).
Luke himself goes from jaded and thinking that the Jedi and the Force can do no good to using the last of his strength to save his sister and the Rebels
Luke. Don't even g
Re: (Score:2)
A character doesn't directly have to affect the outcome of the film to have a character arc. That's not what an arc is.
Anyway, Poe has a negative outcome on the movies for the rebels. A lot of it was setting up the next movie, much like Empire. The big reveal in that movie went nowhere until the next one.
Re: (Score:3)
A character doesn't directly have to affect the outcome of the film to have a character arc. That's not what an arc is.
Well, words mean what we want to to mean, but I'm using the term in the way that's relevant to film scripts (or drama, in general). Don't confuse character development with an arc.
The very core of story structure is that you have a character with a flaw, and that flaw is tested, and the ending is either happy or unhappy depending on the character's choice. It's called an "arc" because it's expected to be a down-then-up arc for a comedy (in the Aristotelian sense, not necessarily the haha sense), or up-the
Re: (Score:2)
Well the only one that's borderline is Poe then, but the movie isn't really about him.
Re: (Score:2)
A negative outcome? The only reason that the worthless general's plan worked at all is because the First Order's fleet was commanded by short bus graduates who all had CTE. Against an opponent with even a quantum of competence it would have failed miserably.
Re: (Score:2)
Have you seen the original trilogy? The Empire wasn't exactly competent either.
Re: (Score:2)
So that's Rose reason to exist?
I was actually already wondering why the fuck this character exists altogether.
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Yes, she was pivotal to the plot.
Re: (Score:2)
Wait, there is a plot?
Re: (Score:2)
Kylo Ren maybe? But I had to search to remember his name, he's so bland.
That's sort of the character, though. His big flaw is he wants to be the big, bad guy, but he's really just a poser. He postures like he's Darth Vader, but he has temper tantrums. He even sounds like a wuss when he has his mask on. He's the goth kid, he's the edge lord. He's really the only character so far in the new trilogy that's interesting. I actually liked Laura Dern's character in the Last Jedi and thought she had potential, but they killed her off, so... so much for that.
Heck, other than Finn who even has a flaw in the new SW films?
Poe. Granted, in the first
Re:Seriously, who cares? (Score:5, Insightful)
One of the biggest issues people here seem to have with TLJ is that it has character arcs.
No, it's because nearly every element of the plot relies on the characters being stupid. If purple-haired general had actually told people she had a plan (not even what the plan was: just that there was a plan), the entire "finding the master codebreaker" plot wouldn't have existed. Also her plan was stupid because she had no idea if the first order would be conducting regular decloaking scans (since apparently it's super-easy for them to detect cloaked ships). If the Finn and Rose hadn't landed their ship in the middle of the beach (instead of, say, in a tall patch of weeds) during a covert infiltration mission, that plan would have worked. If Leia had ordered the bombers to return to the ship in the opening scene (instead of just ordering Poe back), that entire battle losing most of their bombers and fighters simply wouldn't have happened (Poe would have been forced to return without support). Hell, the first order could have ended the chase by not ordering Kylo back when he was attacking the Resistance ship, since he never seemed to be in any real danger (or they could have sent out bombers themselves, which presumably they have, even if they apparently don't have a single fast attack ship in their entire fleet).
Basically, the plot is fucking nonsense, from start to finish, with characters making obviously moronic decisions at nearly every stage. The only part that made sense was Luke and Rey, and that's saying something (considering how Luke's character basically contradicts everything that he'd learned in IV through VI). And even then, Luke coulda thought to mention "hey guys while I distract Kylo how bout you guys maybe try and escape, m'kay?"
Re: (Score:2)
Regarding Holdo she presumably did tell anyone who needed to know what the plan was. It's normal in a military setting for people who don't need to know not to be told stuff because that just increases the chances of the information leaking.
Poe had just been demoted and needed to learn to trust his superiors, to become a better solider instead of just a loose cannon.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
It's normal in a military setting for people who don't need to know not to be told stuff
It's normal in a military setting for people to wear uniforms. In fact, that's the primary thing that distinguishes a military from brigands (terrorists). These guys are still supposed to be the legitimate post-Imperial government, right? If we instead take them as a rag-tag band of rebels without formal organization, who can't even manage uniforms, all improvising to survive, then Poe was obviously in the right.
But you're just a fan of tyranny, so it's a mystery to you why everyone was on Poe's side of
Re: (Score:2)
If Leia had ordered the bombers to return to the ship in the opening scene (instead of just ordering Poe back), that entire battle losing most of their bombers and fighters simply wouldn't have happened
As I remembered it the dreadnaught ship was the one that got taken out by the bombers. You figure if they didn't sacrifice the bombers the gun on that thing is going to cause massive damage to ships in the fleet.
Re: (Score:2)
All the transitions, when he decided to get serious and become a Jedi or when he finished his training and developed the confidence seen when he goes to Jabba's palace all happened between the films.
Yes, but they were all explained in/by the context of the films. And really, how much do people change in a couple of hours? Except when they get a hand cut off, that is.
Re: (Score:2)
The whole dramatic point of Empire was that Luke didn't change, and thus when tested against his flaw he failed, and the movie had an unhappy ending. That's a by-the-book tragedy. It's also the difference between a character arc, and character development.
Re: (Score:2)
I remember almost everything about the first Star Wars movie. I remember almost everything about the second Star Wars movie. I remember a lot of the third Star Wars movie.
I remember quite a bit about the 4th Star Wars movie, but the story seems kind of hazy in my memory. 5th and 6th movies, I recall scenes from and generally remember the story.
Every single movie after the 6th, I can barely even remember scenes or plot points. I recall one where a young woman seems to get off a desert type planet and had Han
Re: (Score:2)
That's what happens when you get older I'm afraid.
Re: (Score:2)
What we've really lost these days is those "filler" movies: movies that the studio gives a small budget and says "do whatever, just release on time", and so are the creative vision of on man, not a committee. 95% of them were crap, but that's where the great "something new"s came from.
I did read an article recently about how the film industry has inadvertently forced a number of directors out of the business. The goal was not to get rid of those directors; that was a side effect of the industry being unwilling to fund various types of movies now. You now have two types of budgets: the big-budget $100m+ movies, and the micro-budget less-than-$5m movies. There's much less in between than their used to be, the mid-range market is dying. Folks like John Waters can't make a movie in that circ
Re: (Score:2)
With any luck, Netflix and Amazon and the like will be funding those mid-budget movies before too many years go by. They certainly have the movie for it, and don't know what to do with it.