Oh, triggered snowflake. You live such a tortured life. It must be hard not being able to see movies with women in starring roles. Who touched you when you were a child?
My feeling were hurt starting with jar jar. I wasted a few hours, sat near annoying people and wasted 10 bucks. And that was the good movie after the first 3. It's been downhill ever since episode 1.
If you thought Phantom Menace was the best of the prequels there is something very wrong with you. Revenge of the Sith was almost good and practically Citizen Kane compared to Phantom.
It's a movie franchise that hasn't decided what it's targeted audience is: adults, infantalized adults, or children. That it includes Ewoks and comical droids ought to have set the expectations for an obnoxious comic relief character like Jar Jar.
TLJ had a lot of great male character development and was a movie primarily about men. Maybe it was pandering to fans who said the one major female character in TFA was too much?
Well all of the major story arcs were about men. Luke's redemption and overcoming his past mistakes, as well as realizing that the whole Jedi religion was flawed. Yoda's "hmm, read them have you?" line is a classic.
Finn goes from just wanting to get away from the First Order to becoming a Rebel, an ideological convert. He also learns that's the Rebellion isn't just about winning, a mistake Poe also made, it's about the people who make it up.
Poe, as I just mentioned, was too focused on heroic attacks, to the detriment of the whole movement. He came to respect the chain of command and see the value in long term planning rather than quick victories that come at a high price.
Kylo moved from apprentice to supreme leader, rejecting Rey's attempts to bring him over to the light side and instead trying to bring her to his.
I suppose Rey's was a major story in a fairly busy film too, so one major female-centric story. Since we lost Carrier Fisher the chance for Leia to really have her moment has passed now.
The only issue I had(besides TFA being basically ANH all over again) was the casting of Kylo. Bader came across as scary, evil, and authoritative. Kylo comes across as whiny and with an inferiority complex. I cant take him seriously as a villain.
I wasn't entirely sold on him either, but now I'm coming to appreciate the character a bit more. They introduced him as Vader Mk. II but it's become clear that he is more than that. Vader was not very subtle, he exercised power through fear the same way Kylo does but Kylo doesn't see himself as evil. Anakin just decided he was going to be evil now, it didn't make a lot of sense because his motivation for doing it (saving his wife) was gone.
Kylo is very different when he is talking to Rey and he has some kin
Luke turned from a hopeful young person to a bitter old one, from the person who thought (and proved) that even redeeming his father who turned over to the dark side was possible to someone who wanted to kill his nephew over a dream that he might turn bad. Finn from someone who wanted to ditch his indoctrination and only fight for what he thinks is right instead of for what he's told to into some sort of useless waste of space and screen time. Poe from a daring pilot to an obnoxious knowitall prick and Darth Emo, sorry, Kylo Ren from bitchy to whiny.
Seriously, I could do without that character development.
But I give you that the female characters had almost zero development. Holdo was unfit for leadership from the start and didn't change 'til she finally died and Rey, well, how do you develop a Mary Sue?
Luke addressed that in the movie with the line "what did you expect, that I'd defeat the First Order with a laser sword?" If Luke had still been in full Jedi mode with a small army of trainees then either the movie would have been about them getting annihilated or just a load of light sabre fights with generic characters we don't know, kinda like the prequels.
Being the second movie of the trilogy Luke can't defeat the First Order. It has to be like Empire, because otherwise it becomes like James Bond where
Luke could have worked as a guide, mentor or master for Rey to at least somewhat explain the ridiculous Jedi power level she possesses. Instead he's been made a mockery of himself by throwing the light saber away like it was garbage. That's the scene that was really painful to watch, I'd have accepted if he took it and maybe took the crystal out with the vow to never use it again or something like that, that would have worked, but throwing it over his shoulder simply flies in the face of anything that has b
Yes, and it would have been AMAZING if Luke had actually propounded on that. "Look, young lady, I've spent a lot of time trying to decide what the role of a Jedi actually is. In the Clone Wars, the Jedi fought, and killed, and were slaughtered almost to the last. Their arrogance and hubris blinded them to the evil which was growing under their very noses, and the result was the Emperor.
"With the Force as my ally, I destroyed the Death Star. What did it accomplish? They built a bigger Death Star. I red
That was the point of that scene. You are expecting Jedi Master Luke, but he's not a Jedi Master any more. He tried and it went horribly wrong, and now he is disillusioned with the whole Jedi religion.
When you look at the history of the Jedi in the movies they really are not a great bunch. The operate outside the democratic structures of the Republic and failed to stop the Sith taking it over. They basically created Vader, because rather than helping him they just gave him terrible advice to bury his comple
The difference is that unlike other religions, the Jedi actually have something tangible to point to. It's not a hollow belief system but there are actual powers you can actually use to influence reality. Jedi powers are not just a social construct that work because people allow Jedi to exert that power, they work because they are actually part of the story universe's reality. And since these powers are a reality, there are essentially two ways to use them. You could either become a servant to that force or
Wasn't Vader, a person with evil in his heart, redeemed though? Luke taught him the way by refusing to fight him. Of course he died before he could do much good, having killed the emperor off.
It kinda sounds like him not taking responsibility too, making an excuse for why Kylo Ren turned bad. "He was just evil in his heart, no-one can do anything about that" is a bit of a cop-out.
I guess they needed to be building Rey up as separate from the Jedi order though, and as the light that helped L
I look at is like how real religions tried to explain physics. Physics is real, but they didn't understand it so they invented a lot of stuff based around their religious ideas.
The Jedi are the same. The Force is real but all the stuff about the light and dark sides is just dogma. Rey doesn't see it that way which is why she wasn't scared by what Luke saw as the dark side; to her it's just another aspect of the Force to be studied like a scientist would study lightning when adherents to some religions would
In relation to what the alternative to the Jedi order is, I guess we will find out in Rise of the Skywalker. To my mind any mind-control powers are basically impossible for a free society to accept though. And we know the Jedi did abuse them, often for trivial things like telling a guy to give up smoking.
I dare to disagree. At least how the movies depict it, the "dark side" comes across like something that comes straight out of some sort of Nazi movie, complete with the human master race, the non-humans as slaves and a militaristic society where the military is everything and you are nothing. Sorry, but convincing me that this is not "the evil side" is gonna be a really, really hard sell.
I don't think there was any character development in TLJ that could be considered "great" and the movie is generally a mess for a lot of reasons outside of any supposed pandering. Trying to create a trilogy where you don't have any coherent overarching idea of where the story is going to go is a recipe for disaster. It gets worse when the director of the second film decides to just throw away all of the little mysteries that the director of the first film (who himself has a history of liking to create these
I think the reason why "pandering" comes up is that the female story arcs are so stupid as to seem like they were forced to make women look powerful.
Rey's major story wasn't busy at all. She's a Mary Sue who magically became so good with the force overnight that she fought down Kylo. Figured out things with ease exactly when the plot required it. Is magically a good pilot, probably because the plot needed that. Went to see Luke, learnt nothing about the force, and then left again.
Admiral Holdo seemingly withheld her plan from her top general to exert some stupid form of dominance (yay power woman) which helped fuel Poe's story arc.
And Rose Tico was reduced to a tag-along who in the name of "love" nearly doomed the entire resistance by getting in the way of a heroic act by a male character.
The female story lines are so idiotic compared to the male story lines they they can really be no more than pandering to diversity and that is the biggest problem with the new series. They could replace all of this bullshit by simply making normal heroic female characters do normal heroic things in a normal way like a normal story.
Also I don't for a moment thing that Poe respects the chain of command, he hasn't had a story arc. He nearly got killed due to stupid lack of information, and isn't any less gung-ho at the end than at the start.
Poe, as I just mentioned, was too focused on heroic attacks, to the detriment of the whole movement. He came to respect the chain of command and see the value in long term planning rather than quick victories that come at a high price.
He could have learned that during the battle with the dreadnaught at the beginning and it would have felt natural. When Holdo inexplicable withholds her plan (which appears to be to let the fleet get blown up for awhile and then kamikaze into the First Order), Poe's response
Poe, as I just mentioned, was too focused on heroic attacks, to the detriment of the whole movement. He came to respect the chain of command and see the value in long term planning rather than quick victories that come at a high price.
Actually Poe was shown to be 100% right in what he did. Had Poe not destroyed the Dreadnought at the start of the movie the First Order would have been able to use its longer ranged weapons to destroy all the Resistance ships before Holdo could execute her plan.
Incidentally however, knowing what happens, why didn't they just get one bomber or fighter to hyperdrive into each First Order ship, since we know this is incredibly destructive? The pilots could even eject just before activating the hyperdrive. Al
>"Women in starring roles are not an issue. Pandering is the issue."
Indeed. It never has been a problem with women in starring roles (at least not for me or probably most people). It has been about replacing existing/previous male characters with women, having women act in very unrealistic ways, and having women say/act in ways that push an agenda or outside-the-story-message ("the women always save the men, perhaps we should rename this to X-Women", and such).
Have female characters been less represented in the past? Yes. Should there be more focus on women? Yes. But it needs to be realistic, relevant to the story, true to previous stories (when it is an existing franchise/"universe"), not derailing, and with a mind to what type of audience.
Women in starring roles are not an issue. Pandering is the issue. It doesn't actually make anything better. In fact, it makes things worse.
There is a whole segmant of the population that sees pandering as an honest expression of true feelings while the rest of the population sees it as the behavior of a con artist trying to sell a lie.
Now, each and every SJW knows that they themselves are being dishonest, but they think that all the other SJW's are being honest.
Meanwhile everyone else knows they are fucking con artists, the whole entire pandering sexist racist lot of them.
Great movie (Score:2)
From what I have read online this is going to be one GREAT movie. I can't wait!
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Re:Great movie (Score:3, Insightful)
Women in starring roles are not an issue. Pandering is the issue. It doesn't actually make anything better. In fact, it makes things worse.
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Re: Great movie (Score:3)
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If you thought Phantom Menace was the best of the prequels there is something very wrong with you. Revenge of the Sith was almost good and practically Citizen Kane compared to Phantom.
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It's a movie franchise that hasn't decided what it's targeted audience is: adults, infantalized adults, or children. That it includes Ewoks and comical droids ought to have set the expectations for an obnoxious comic relief character like Jar Jar.
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Mostly it was boring as fuck and character arcs that were started in TFA that people were interested in went nowhere.
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No one can ever explain who it's pandering to.
TLJ had a lot of great male character development and was a movie primarily about men. Maybe it was pandering to fans who said the one major female character in TFA was too much?
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Care to point it out? I must have missed it.
Re:Great movie (Score:4, Interesting)
Well all of the major story arcs were about men. Luke's redemption and overcoming his past mistakes, as well as realizing that the whole Jedi religion was flawed. Yoda's "hmm, read them have you?" line is a classic.
Finn goes from just wanting to get away from the First Order to becoming a Rebel, an ideological convert. He also learns that's the Rebellion isn't just about winning, a mistake Poe also made, it's about the people who make it up.
Poe, as I just mentioned, was too focused on heroic attacks, to the detriment of the whole movement. He came to respect the chain of command and see the value in long term planning rather than quick victories that come at a high price.
Kylo moved from apprentice to supreme leader, rejecting Rey's attempts to bring him over to the light side and instead trying to bring her to his.
I suppose Rey's was a major story in a fairly busy film too, so one major female-centric story. Since we lost Carrier Fisher the chance for Leia to really have her moment has passed now.
Re: Great movie (Score:2)
The only issue I had(besides TFA being basically ANH all over again) was the casting of Kylo. Bader came across as scary, evil, and authoritative. Kylo comes across as whiny and with an inferiority complex. I cant take him seriously as a villain.
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I wasn't entirely sold on him either, but now I'm coming to appreciate the character a bit more. They introduced him as Vader Mk. II but it's become clear that he is more than that. Vader was not very subtle, he exercised power through fear the same way Kylo does but Kylo doesn't see himself as evil. Anakin just decided he was going to be evil now, it didn't make a lot of sense because his motivation for doing it (saving his wife) was gone.
Kylo is very different when he is talking to Rey and he has some kin
Re:Great movie (Score:5, Insightful)
Did we watch the same movie?
Luke turned from a hopeful young person to a bitter old one, from the person who thought (and proved) that even redeeming his father who turned over to the dark side was possible to someone who wanted to kill his nephew over a dream that he might turn bad. Finn from someone who wanted to ditch his indoctrination and only fight for what he thinks is right instead of for what he's told to into some sort of useless waste of space and screen time. Poe from a daring pilot to an obnoxious knowitall prick and Darth Emo, sorry, Kylo Ren from bitchy to whiny.
Seriously, I could do without that character development.
But I give you that the female characters had almost zero development. Holdo was unfit for leadership from the start and didn't change 'til she finally died and Rey, well, how do you develop a Mary Sue?
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Luke addressed that in the movie with the line "what did you expect, that I'd defeat the First Order with a laser sword?" If Luke had still been in full Jedi mode with a small army of trainees then either the movie would have been about them getting annihilated or just a load of light sabre fights with generic characters we don't know, kinda like the prequels.
Being the second movie of the trilogy Luke can't defeat the First Order. It has to be like Empire, because otherwise it becomes like James Bond where
Re: (Score:2)
Luke could have worked as a guide, mentor or master for Rey to at least somewhat explain the ridiculous Jedi power level she possesses. Instead he's been made a mockery of himself by throwing the light saber away like it was garbage. That's the scene that was really painful to watch, I'd have accepted if he took it and maybe took the crystal out with the vow to never use it again or something like that, that would have worked, but throwing it over his shoulder simply flies in the face of anything that has b
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, and it would have been AMAZING if Luke had actually propounded on that. "Look, young lady, I've spent a lot of time trying to decide what the role of a Jedi actually is. In the Clone Wars, the Jedi fought, and killed, and were slaughtered almost to the last. Their arrogance and hubris blinded them to the evil which was growing under their very noses, and the result was the Emperor.
"With the Force as my ally, I destroyed the Death Star. What did it accomplish? They built a bigger Death Star. I red
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That was the point of that scene. You are expecting Jedi Master Luke, but he's not a Jedi Master any more. He tried and it went horribly wrong, and now he is disillusioned with the whole Jedi religion.
When you look at the history of the Jedi in the movies they really are not a great bunch. The operate outside the democratic structures of the Republic and failed to stop the Sith taking it over. They basically created Vader, because rather than helping him they just gave him terrible advice to bury his comple
Re: (Score:2)
The difference is that unlike other religions, the Jedi actually have something tangible to point to. It's not a hollow belief system but there are actual powers you can actually use to influence reality. Jedi powers are not just a social construct that work because people allow Jedi to exert that power, they work because they are actually part of the story universe's reality. And since these powers are a reality, there are essentially two ways to use them. You could either become a servant to that force or
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Interesting idea.
Wasn't Vader, a person with evil in his heart, redeemed though? Luke taught him the way by refusing to fight him. Of course he died before he could do much good, having killed the emperor off.
It kinda sounds like him not taking responsibility too, making an excuse for why Kylo Ren turned bad. "He was just evil in his heart, no-one can do anything about that" is a bit of a cop-out.
I guess they needed to be building Rey up as separate from the Jedi order though, and as the light that helped L
Re: (Score:2)
I look at is like how real religions tried to explain physics. Physics is real, but they didn't understand it so they invented a lot of stuff based around their religious ideas.
The Jedi are the same. The Force is real but all the stuff about the light and dark sides is just dogma. Rey doesn't see it that way which is why she wasn't scared by what Luke saw as the dark side; to her it's just another aspect of the Force to be studied like a scientist would study lightning when adherents to some religions would
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In relation to what the alternative to the Jedi order is, I guess we will find out in Rise of the Skywalker. To my mind any mind-control powers are basically impossible for a free society to accept though. And we know the Jedi did abuse them, often for trivial things like telling a guy to give up smoking.
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I dare to disagree. At least how the movies depict it, the "dark side" comes across like something that comes straight out of some sort of Nazi movie, complete with the human master race, the non-humans as slaves and a militaristic society where the military is everything and you are nothing. Sorry, but convincing me that this is not "the evil side" is gonna be a really, really hard sell.
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What little mysteries are you referring to? Rey's parents were looked at in TLJ... I suppose there was the story of how Luke's lightsabre came to her.
Anyway, it was much like Empire. Lots happened by the good guys didn't win and it won't be resolved until the third movie.
Re:Great movie (Score:5, Informative)
I think the reason why "pandering" comes up is that the female story arcs are so stupid as to seem like they were forced to make women look powerful.
Rey's major story wasn't busy at all. She's a Mary Sue who magically became so good with the force overnight that she fought down Kylo. Figured out things with ease exactly when the plot required it. Is magically a good pilot, probably because the plot needed that. Went to see Luke, learnt nothing about the force, and then left again.
Admiral Holdo seemingly withheld her plan from her top general to exert some stupid form of dominance (yay power woman) which helped fuel Poe's story arc.
And Rose Tico was reduced to a tag-along who in the name of "love" nearly doomed the entire resistance by getting in the way of a heroic act by a male character.
The female story lines are so idiotic compared to the male story lines they they can really be no more than pandering to diversity and that is the biggest problem with the new series. They could replace all of this bullshit by simply making normal heroic female characters do normal heroic things in a normal way like a normal story.
Also I don't for a moment thing that Poe respects the chain of command, he hasn't had a story arc. He nearly got killed due to stupid lack of information, and isn't any less gung-ho at the end than at the start.
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Regarding Rey, people always seem to forget that Kylo wasn't trying to kill her. Both times they fought he was trying to bring her over to his side.
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He could have learned that during the battle with the dreadnaught at the beginning and it would have felt natural. When Holdo inexplicable withholds her plan (which appears to be to let the fleet get blown up for awhile and then kamikaze into the First Order), Poe's response
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Poe, as I just mentioned, was too focused on heroic attacks, to the detriment of the whole movement. He came to respect the chain of command and see the value in long term planning rather than quick victories that come at a high price.
Actually Poe was shown to be 100% right in what he did. Had Poe not destroyed the Dreadnought at the start of the movie the First Order would have been able to use its longer ranged weapons to destroy all the Resistance ships before Holdo could execute her plan. Incidentally however, knowing what happens, why didn't they just get one bomber or fighter to hyperdrive into each First Order ship, since we know this is incredibly destructive? The pilots could even eject just before activating the hyperdrive. Al
Re:Great movie (Score:4, Insightful)
>"Women in starring roles are not an issue. Pandering is the issue."
Indeed. It never has been a problem with women in starring roles (at least not for me or probably most people). It has been about replacing existing/previous male characters with women, having women act in very unrealistic ways, and having women say/act in ways that push an agenda or outside-the-story-message ("the women always save the men, perhaps we should rename this to X-Women", and such).
Have female characters been less represented in the past? Yes. Should there be more focus on women? Yes. But it needs to be realistic, relevant to the story, true to previous stories (when it is an existing franchise/"universe"), not derailing, and with a mind to what type of audience.
Re:Great movie (Score:4, Insightful)
Women in starring roles are not an issue. Pandering is the issue. It doesn't actually make anything better. In fact, it makes things worse.
There is a whole segmant of the population that sees pandering as an honest expression of true feelings while the rest of the population sees it as the behavior of a con artist trying to sell a lie.
Now, each and every SJW knows that they themselves are being dishonest, but they think that all the other SJW's are being honest.
Meanwhile everyone else knows they are fucking con artists, the whole entire pandering sexist racist lot of them.