'The Hobbit' Pub Threatened With Lawsuit 388
An anonymous reader writes "'The Hobbit,' a small pub in Southampton, England, has been threatened with a lawsuit by lawyers representing the Saul Zaentz Company in California. The pub, which has traded under the name for the last 20 years without incident, now faces closure if it does not change its name. It's yet another example of big business throwing its weight around to get its way. The pub's landlady said simply, 'I can't fight Hollywood.'"
Easy! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Easy! (Score:5, Funny)
Vanz Can't Danz (Score:2)
Vanz can't dance, but he'll steal your money,
Watch him - or he'll rob you blind...
http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=7123 [songfacts.com]
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Or just drop one of the "b"s...
From Collins English Dictionary
hob
n
(Myth & Legend / European Myth & Legend) a hobgoblin or elf
Re:Easy! (Score:5, Funny)
If you're going to rename the bar "The Hobgoblin" you might as well just rename it to "Moe's".
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Re:Easy! (Score:5, Interesting)
Are they going to sue the dictionary too?
hobbit (hbt)
— n
1. one of an imaginary race of half-size people living in holes
2. a nickname used for a very small type of primitive human, Homo floresiensis , following the discovery of remains of eight such people on the Island of Flores, Indonesia, in 2004
Suing Dictionaries - Already Happenning (Score:3)
You would be surprised - but yes. It is normal.
My sister has entered the lawsuit with Mad Dog Athletics because she uses the word "Aerospinning"... and MDA happened to have trademarked the word "spinning(R)". During the course of hearings it turned out that MDA lawyers in Czech Republic were sending threatening letters to publishers of Czech-English dictionaries demanding either
a) Removing the trademarked word "spinning" from the dictionary
b) Accompanying the word "spinning" with "TM" and their name as resp
Re:Easy! (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Easy! (Score:5, Insightful)
Pub has clear risk of losing as the whole thing is Tolkien/movie themed. Without approval by the rights holder. It's not just the name.
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Actually - as a trademark isn't it required to be in 'competition'? Same way Apple Records could not enforce a trademark versus Apple Computers.
Pug
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Firebird is an open-source embedded database project that was already quite mature when they renamed Pheonix. They didn't threaten to sue, they just asked nicely.
Re:Easy! (Score:5, Insightful)
AFAIK all the legal stuff broke out once JRR passed away. Pretty much much the classic story of heirs becoming idiots.
Re:Easy! (Score:5, Insightful)
Not idiots. Not at all. Greedy is what they are.
Re:Easy! (Score:5, Funny)
Come on, isn't it clear that this pub will reduce their income from Tolkien IP? If you have the choice between going to a "hobbit" pub or renting the movie, surely you'll go for the pub? It's only natural that they're defending their interests. Ie everybody starts opening hobbit pubs everywhere, nobody will buy the books or movies anymore. Hell, if you can read the word "hobbit" on the pub for free, why would you pay to read the book? Makes perfect sense to me. In fact, all references to anything Tolkien-related should be banned everywhere. It all just detracts from the value of the IP.
Re:Easy! (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Easy! (Score:5, Insightful)
Not if his name is Bilbo. I know people that have been named after characters in the book.
I think where the "problem" lies is that the name of the establishment is the name of the book which might possibly be putting it under trademark law which forces you to "protect it or lose it".
It's still bullshit of course. Books are over 60-85 years old and the man has been dead since 73'. Copyrights are rather disgusting when abused like this. His children can go out and get their own fucking jobs and write their own fucking novels.
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Re:Easy! (Score:4, Interesting)
Doctrine of Laches. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laches_%28equity%29)
If this pub has been around for 20 years and they haven't sued them in this time, the pub could assert that the owners have slept on their rights, and that the delay in bringing the suit would cost them a lot of money.
Re:Easy! (Score:4, Informative)
Unfortunately, Hollywood has two major advantages:
1) Lots of money for lawyers.
2) It's the UK legal system.
Re:Easy! (Score:5, Interesting)
Unfortunately, Hollywood has two major advantages:
1) Lots of money for lawyers.
2) It's the UK legal system.
Actually, the UK legal system isn't very friendly to hollywood in this case. They would almost certainly lose if the case came to court (trademarks only work where somebody is likely to think the use of the name implies some kind of actual relationship between the two businesses, which nobody rational would in this case), and that means they would have to pay the Hobbit's legal expenses as well as their own. Because this is a likely outcome, the owners of the Hobbit are likely to be able to find a lawyer who will represent them on a conditional fee arrangement (i.e. they pay nothing, hollywood pays when they win).
(This is not legal advice.)
Re:Easy! (Score:4, Insightful)
Or they could just extradite the landlady and try her in California. That's how it works, isn't it?
Re:Easy! (Score:5, Informative)
You most certainly can trademark a person's name, and it can be very commercial. If you are named such (and not the person holding the trademark), you can be legally prevented from using your own name in branding if it covers an industry in which another has registered it as a trademark.
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you can be legally prevented from using your own name in branding if it covers an industry in which another has registered it as a trademark.
Exactly [wikipedia.org]
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You cannot however be sued for HAVING that name, and the having of the name is not what makes it commercial.
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Re:Easy! (Score:5, Funny)
Then just rename it 'The Hobbit (book) - For other uses, see Hobbit (disambiguation)'. :^)
Pull an H (Score:5, Interesting)
And put up an apostrophe, it will be pronounced the same in cockney.
the `obbit
Re:Pull an H (Score:4, Funny)
Which is next to Scotland and London isn't it? Stratford, where Shakespeare came from, is in London is it not? The UK is such a small country - who can say where these places are - there is literally no way to clarify...
I'm from the UK by the way, before anybody mistakes me for my cousins across the pond.
Re:Pull an H (Score:5, Funny)
But I would have expected someone from the UK to get the sarcasm.
Simple solution (Score:2)
Re:Simple solution (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Simple solution (Score:5, Informative)
Dungeons and Dragons before it was bought by Wizards of the Coast.
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Terminate and Stay Resident? Am I increasing or decreasing my geek cred when I admit that's the only TSR I know?
Either decreasing or showing your age (er, lack thereof)
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"Terminate and Stay Resident" and "Tactical Studies Rules" were pretty much contemporaneous I think.
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or showing your age (er, lack thereof)
Lack thereof? For knowing about Terminate and Stay Resident programs?
Re:Simple solution (Score:5, Funny)
Your geek cred remains unadjusted. But your "Get off my lawn" cred shot through the ceiling.
Then Hasbro would sue (Score:5, Funny)
Name it the Ten-Forward Lord Smoked Meat and Fish's Leaky Cauldron Pub and Mos Eisley Cantina of the Vulgar Unicorn.
With all the lawsuit Publicity, you'll never close. Throw in a walk-down like Cheers and a surly endangered animal smuggling bartender named Moe, and the lawyers will be your best patrons.
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Hey -- leave Lynn Abbey out of it - she owns the rights to Thieves' World (and her partner and co-author at that time Robert Asprin is no longer amongst the living) and while I'm certain she'd have to protect her rights would be sad to take that stance.
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or she could just license it for a pittance, say $5/year. unless she actually wanted to squeeze a small business. but no, only large corporations are greedy, of course.
Ok. What about this?. (Score:5, Funny)
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http://www.habitburger.com/ [habitburger.com]
The Angry Executive (Score:3)
Rename it... (Score:5, Funny)
The "Fuck you Hollywood"
Lend them your support! (Score:5, Informative)
Here:
http://www.facebook.com/SaveTheHobbitSouthampton?ref=ts [facebook.com]
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Retweet with the hashtag @savethehobbit if you don't have either then send Saul Zaentz a letter I believe his company's details are on their site.
Re:Lend them your support! (Score:4, Informative)
Just to nitpick, @savethehobbit is a Twitter account. A hashtag using the pound sign like so: #SaveTheHobbit
Re:Lend them your support! (Score:5, Interesting)
It's a student pub- I'd expect no less.
Nice place too. They do these great cocktails in a pint glass named after LOTR characters- The Frodo, The Gollum, The Legolas, etc. The kind of filth-in-a-glass that only a student would find appealing, but great fun.
Although that probably doesn't do their trademark infringement case much good, come to think of it...
They should change the name to... (Score:2)
Everyone will know what it means.
The Pub isn't all innocent (Score:5, Informative)
If you look at their website [thehobbitpub.co.uk], you'll see they use likenesses of the characters from the movies in their advertising. If the pub was just using fan artwork or coming up with their own graphical material (while using the names), they may have been left alone. But they are using the faces from the movie in their own advertising and promotional material (posters, loyalty card). That's just asking for trouble.
Re:The Pub isn't all innocent (Score:4, Funny)
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Aye it be a stern challenge to views em as doe eyed scalliwags 'ere the wily buggers be utilizing lithographs from the moving-picture show throughout their advertising swag.. That is just engaging trouble.
Re:The Pub isn't all innocent (Score:5, Funny)
I'd be ok with the lawyers... (Score:5, Funny)
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IBM won't lend them their legal team though, so that can't happen.
Long history (Score:5, Interesting)
Mr. Saul Zaentz has a long history of being a dick. Zaentz sued Creedence Clearwater's John Fogerty for plagiarizing himself (!) asking $140 million in damages, and lost.
Zaentz's perception is that he owns the 'brand' Hobbit, although he only owns screen rights.
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There's the famous vacuum cleaner VAX for sale over in England. Did DEC sue them?
Not until they started their advertisement campaign "nothing sux like a Vax"...
Rename it the Halfwit (Score:2)
And then explain that to everyone who asks.
Can't fight Hollywood (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.hobbitpub.co.uk/drink-offers/ [hobbitpub.co.uk]
They're not fighting Hollywood since they don't have a leg to stand on. If they would have used original artwork instead of copyrighted images from a movie, I'd be on their side.
Doesn't this qualify as... (Score:5, Funny)
... Shire Art?
A Great Name (Score:2)
Call it "The Other Tolkein's Estate"!
Art is built of art which came before it (Score:3)
I know... the usual arguments apply but I'm going to reference Wikipedia anyway: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobbit [wikipedia.org]
Seems to me that, as is usually the case, art owes itself to art which came before it. A name here, a concept there, whether consciously or not, no one has truly original ideas or thought on their own. There are variations and twists but it's called evolution, not creation.
This quibbling and fighting in courts represents the utter denial of what it is to be human. We learn from each other. We teach each other. We entertain each other. And to place a restriction, an ownership or a price tag on human habit and human legacy isn't just tragic, it simply denies what and who we are. And we're just about the only animal on the planet that can do what we do. It's not the use of tools. It's not even that we speak a language. It's that we can teach each other things without having to live through the entirety of human development to advance further than picking up a stick to get bugs out of a tree.
When you put any kind of limit on that, you are in direct opposition to human development. Not that anyone can really do that successfully... well, maybe they can... I once heard about some sort of dark ages which somehow wiped out hundreds or even thousands of years of human development and knowledge so I guess it's possible. But will the next dark ages be caused by the courts and copyright law? Or perhaps it will be because of a war fought defending and imposing copyright law...
Vague (Score:5, Insightful)
I felt sorry for this pub until I actually went to the website. The summary would have you believe the big guys are trying to crush the little guys over a little innocent naming. Not so-- Visiting the website will immediately welcome you with faces and figures from the films, trademark and copyright infringement everywhere.
I don't feel sorry for a pub that is trying to leech from the popularity of the source material and the films. Maybe it didn't start out that way, but that's what it appears to be now.
Re:Vague (Score:5, Insightful)
It didn't start that way, the pub was there, using that name, long before the movies.
I agree it's dumb/wrong of them to use film promo stuff on their flyers, however that's not what this suit is about (AFACIT), and the guy suing doesn't own any of that stuff. It is the name.
I am biased because I used to live near there and drink there, it's a good place, and I think that the name should stay - The Hobbit was released in 1937 and is part of our culture now, it should be free for all to use. OTOH they definitely ought to cut that shit out with the flyers and use of film materials, assuming they don't have permission from whoever does own the copyright on those images, which is a pretty safe assumption to make.
AGAIN with the prior art! (Score:3)
AGAIN with the prior art!
From Wikipedia on "Hobbit":(debate away!)
"Evidence of earlier use
The only source known today that makes reference to hobbits in any sort of historical context is the Denham Tracts by Michael Aislabie Denham. More specifically, it appears in the Denham Tracts, edited by James Hardy, (London: Folklore Society, 1895), vol. 2, the second part of a two-volume set compiled from Denham's publications between 1846 and 1859.
The text contains a long list of sprites and bogies, based on an older list, the Discovery of Witchcraft, dated 1584, with many additions and a few repetitions. The term hobbit is listed in the context of
boggleboes, bogies, redmen, portunes, grants, hobbits, hobgoblins, brown-men, cowies, dunnies
In the December 2003 Oxford English Dictionary newsletter, in the "Words of Choice" section, the following appears:
4. hobbit â" J. R. R. Tolkien modestly claimed not to have coined this word, although the Supplement to the OED credited him with the invention of it in the absence of further evidence. It seems, however, that Tolkien was right to be cautious. It has since turned up in one of those 19th-century folklore journals, in a list of long-forgotten words for fairy-folk or little people. It seems likely that Tolkien, with his interest in folklore, read this and subconsciously registered the name, reviving it many years later in his most famous character. [Editor's note: although revision of the OED's entry for hobbit will of course take this evidence for earlier use into account, it does not yet appear in the online version of the entry.] "
...it's my local! (Score:3)
Well one of them, I generally prefer the Shooting Star - about 200 yards further down the hill these days (as it has a better pool table). Over twenty years I have been drinking at the Hobbit. Last night a group of my friends all gathered there for a drink in the mistaken belief they could do something about this.
I don't think anybody is going to argue the film is not infringing copyright, even in the early 90s there were posters of illustrations from the book on the walls. They introduced a range of cocktails based on characters in the books (Gimli, Legolas and so on). When the films were introduced they brought in pictures from the films and hung them on the walls. They make "The Hobbit" T-Shirts. They have a life size statue of Aragorn from the movies in there. So discussions on the "hobbit" being an English word and prior art are irrelevent - they have posters and paintings from the film and book in there.
The point is that they have been called The Hobbit for a very long time and this lawsuit has popped up only because of the new film coming out. And SZC has probably been trawling the net looking for targets, I think that after the first trilogy films came and went and there was no mention of it there was an assumption things would remain the same for ever - I do remember a conversation at the time about copyright and the name of the pub. Among my friends there is a huge amount of anger about this because The Hobbit has been a bit of an institution in the alternative/student scene in Southampton as long as anybody can remember.
Having said that - nobody believes that anything they can do will change this and there are probably already re-branding plans on the horizon. The best possible outcome now is that they use the massive publicity to their advantage and choose a similar style of name - I have heard "The Camelot" mentioned as a possible option (and I don't think anybody can claim copyright over the Arthurian legends). Stella - the landlady - is not an idiot, I'm sure she's looking at all options. But from a legal case it's pretty clear where the law stands and there is no fighting that.
The Butthole Director Pub (Score:3)
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Re:Zieg Heil! (Score:4, Informative)
It's an American company doing the suing.
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Even if it is an American company, the courts would follow English law.
Wouldn't be too sure, it seems the norm for british nationals to be groundlessly extradited [telegraph.co.uk] to the US... Basically, the US says "extradite this person" and the UK seems to say "ok" no matter what.
Re:Zieg Heil! (Score:5, Interesting)
Interestingly, the original edition of the Lord of the Rings is in the public domain in the US due to an error by his publisher at the time. Tolkien had to go back and make a revised edition and market it with a note on the back pleading with fans not to buy the Ace Books edition that he saw no royalties from. So presumably a similar pub in the US (e.g. Bilbo Baggins, in Alexandria, VA) is on safer ground than this one in the UK.
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So, if it's public domain, why the fuck hasn't somebody put it on Project Gutenberg already? It should be there.
And as an enemy of copyright, I don't care HOW it lost copyright, we should seize every opportunity to take back any bit of the public domain we can.
Fuck the estate!
Re:Zieg Heil! (Score:4, Interesting)
It holds all the water the lawyers can carry.
This case is not about the merits.
It's about a poor defenseless woman being outgunned in the legal arena and losing the case before it even starts because she's too broke to fight back.
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Trademark? Really? Does the owners of the Lord of the Rings franchise sell alcohol too? That's news to me. I wouldn't have for a moment suspected that much. Isn't the purpose of trademark supposed to defend a mark so that a similar, competing product or service doesn't get confused as another? It's kind of how Apple Computers prevailed against Apple Music... kind of.
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Troll?
Damn straight I'm a troll when it comes to calling out American thugishness around the world. Because you interfere in Canada, too, the same as you do everywhere.
Jackboot is the KINDEST term I could have for your government and legal system.
Re:Zieg Heil! (Score:5, Informative)
A bit of information friend... since we became a nation of the corporation, by the corporation and for the corporation... the government/corporations (they've effectively become one and the same) and the nations people are no longer on speaking terms. Americans are way more pissed off than you ever will be, because our corporations crap on the world weekly but they defecate on us here in the states every few seconds. Please feel free to club a CEO or two. You'll win friends and garner respect here in the states.
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Spoken like true war-mongering bully.
Throw a bit of religious fundamentalism in there and you will be totally setting a good example for all those nasty islamic terrorists....
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The Tolkien Family sued over "The Hobbit" movie & settled. Guess it was English Riding Booties doing the stomping that time.
Re:Zieg Heil! (Score:5, Informative)
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If your idea of Nazi style jackbooted fascism is a bar being sued because they use direct images from the LotR movies in their advertising, then you're pretty well off, and really don't understand what the people that were actually exposed to fascist tyranny actually had to put up with.
First world problems: he has them.
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...I was just thinking of how ironic it might be to be modded 'Troll...'
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And you don't think 20 years of operation just might demonstrate that it hasn't been defended in a timely fashion?
Re:Zieg Heil! (Score:5, Insightful)
http://www.thehobbitpub.co.uk/ [thehobbitpub.co.uk]
Blame the web designer (Score:4, Informative)
Did you see that tiny little text at the bottom of the site? It reads:
Site designed and built by frozendesigns.co.uk
Perhaps the pub should be raising some hell with them. Specifically on why they don't seem to understand the concept of building web sites using only original and/or royalty free images.
Re:Zieg Heil! (Score:5, Informative)
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it's england. they'd be sued for libel the next day. doesn't matter if it's a true statement.
Re:Call it the Bobbit (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Really? (Score:5, Interesting)
While it does seem that way, think on this -
The Hobbit was published in 1937. Under life +70 copyright, it doesn't enter the public domain for another 30 years. This is ludicrous. 75 years after publishing, this stuff is part of our culture and should be free for all.
(Yes, I used to drink at this pub!)
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I would think that an even better one is a fixed 40 years from the date of publication... and automatically falling into public domain if out of print for more a cumulative total of 10 years.
It encourages creators to continue creating, instead of sitting on their laurels and enjoying royalties of products that are decades old.
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The party doing the suing does in fact have trademarks on "The Hobbit" relating to alcoholic beverages.
http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4005:sj3a4.2.8 [uspto.gov]
http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4005:sj3a4.2.10 [uspto.gov]
Both were filed in 2011 and since things like prior art and such don't apply to trademarks they seem to be well within their rights to sue. I'm against things like patent trolls and eternal copyrights as much as anyone else and I'd find it highly distasteful if they don't
Re:One of my local's (Score:5, Insightful)
You know, your snarky, self-righteous dismissal might come off as marginally less douchy if this guy wasn't some dickhead film producer who had fuck-all to do with the "success and work" of Tolkien.
It might, but I doubt it.
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Re:Almost a good point (Score:4, Informative)
But "Whosover files first wins", in trademark law.
Erm, no. Usage prior to registration is a defence against trademark infrinement, at least in the UK. http://www.inbrief.co.uk/intellectual-property/defences-to-trademark-infringement.htm [inbrief.co.uk]