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It's funny. Laugh. Media Movies The Matrix

The Matrix: Resolutions 721

Posted by CowboyNeal from the far-fetched-theories dept.
Slappy White writes "For six months, Matrix message boards were aflame with speculation, theories, predictions and outright psychotic guessing about Revolutions. Now the film is here, and this article has a humorous roundup of some of the popular theories, both those that were close and others that were, shall we say, a little off the mark." I still haven't seen this film, so I'll refrain from passing judgment, but I'm ever so happy the matrix-within-a-matrix theories were unfounded. Update: 11/09 02:38 GMT by CN : Some folks who've never seen the Twilight Zone or even the Simpsons' Treehouse of Horrors thought that was a spoiler. If you're one of those people, I'm very sorry.
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The Matrix: Resolutions More

The Matrix: Resolutions

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  • Thanks for the spoiler (n/t) (Score:5, Informative)

    by Karamchand ( 607798 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @01:26PM (#7424545)
    well as i said there's no more text in this posting. just thank you for the spoiler, CN!
    • Hear, hear.

      Cowboyneal, please use your update:ly powers to axe that line before you piss off everyone.

      After all, some people haven't read the article yet. :-P
    • As a subscriber, I saw this article before it was posted to the front page, and decided to email the on-duty editor. There's a mailto: link in each article for daddypants@slashdot.org.

      In this case, daddypants@slashdot.org was being forwarded somewhere else, but the emails were bouncing:

      jdp@mccarthy.vg
      (generated from pudge@andover.net)
      SMTP error from remote mailer after RCPT TO:<jdp@mccarthy.vg>:
      host akane.blockstackers.com [216.144.199.194]:
      550 Unknown local part jdp in <jdp@mccarthy

    • what spoiler?

      there's no spoiler in it, except that some theories were wrong.

      besides, if you don't want matrix spoilers who the f told you to read matrix stories? or heck, even read slashdot.

      even more importantly if one line can spoil your movie experience, there wasn't much to begin with.

      otoh, i did like revolutions quite a bit(i'd give it 3 stars or so, though i didn't find it that surprising of an ending after watching reloaded and animatrixes, it quite well is the only reasonable ending)
    • Obviously you haven't read the article - I doubt there's even one shred of a fact in there, and if it's the basis for CowboyNeal's comment (who says he hasn't seen the movie), well, it doesn't mean *anything*. I mean, that's a pointlesswasteoftime.com article for God's sake, not exactly a reputable news source. I bet you write back emails flaming TruthMedia reviews, too, eh?
  • The worst thing in Revolution theory - they did not told us HOW EXACTLY can Neo stop machines in real world? They say something... "He is the one - so it's obvious" - but it is really not obvious. I suppose that there will be no Matrix IV, V or VI (they told us so), but there can be something like "Neo", "Neo Reloaded", "Neo Revolutions" movies ;-)
    • Because Neo is "The One", and contains code for "rebooting" the matrix (hah, the machines are running Windows!) and because Neo is such an intrinsic part of the matrix, he has a connection to the machines. That's why he can see the machines (and only the machines) when he's blind, that's how he can stop them, and that's how he separated his mind from body when he was in the matrix but not jacked in.

    • Spoiler warning. (Score:3, Interesting)

      by ebbomega ( 410207 )
      They don't say that. They say "The powers of the one extend beyond the Matrix." That makes sense. Assuming The Matrix is in the air (and as such hackable to the Freedom Fighters), Neo's expanded brain power (Ability to see beyond the Matrix) may very well enable him to connect with the Machines in general. Nobody really explained in Dune: Messiah why Paul could see when _he_ was blinded other than his "special" powers as Kwizatz Haderach, but nobody seemed to complain there....

    • They did say why (Score:5, Interesting)

      by KalvinB ( 205500 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @04:45PM (#7425366) Homepage
      It's because he's part of the source. It's understandable why you'd miss the two lines of dialog where he asks the question you asked and the oracle gives the answer I just gave you considering how every explaination was just a side note between action and reaction shots.

      And since he's part of the source, the "real" world (where the escaped humans hang out) isn't really the real world since he can only control what the source controls. Point for "matrix in a matrix" theorists.

      I think what's mildly ironic is that the reason people hated Vanilla Sky is because the last 15 minutes they pretended the audience was full of morons and explained everything.

      Matrix: Revolutions didn't do that. They gave short stark answers which answered the questions but in a way that left it open for interpretation.

      What did Agent Smith do the the Oracle? You get all of 3 seconds of seeing her lying on the ground where the Agent Smith that took on Neo used to be standing. Sure they could have gone into extensive dialog about why he needed her to defeat Neo OR they could leave it open.

      They did that with everything. The answers are all there. They just don't spell it out for you. If they had they'd just be wasting time repeating Matrix 1 and 2.

      Personally, my theory is that they knew all the neat questions and how to "show" them as is good story telling but couldn't "show" the answers even if they really knew them. That's the standard problem with philosophy. Most of the great writters have a brilliant ability to ask deep questions in interesting ways but they never give you an answer. They just send you back down the mountain to seek it out yourself.

      I'll definitly be picking up the DVD when it comes out. I think people went in with a mindset that is was all action and "sucked" and so, like you, weren't paying attention when answers where offered.

      Reloaded was the same way. I went in for the action and picked up much more detail when I got the DVD and watched it more closely.

      Ben
    • He uses 802.11zzz.

  • I thought Revolutions was very good (Score:5, Interesting)

    by chrisgeleven ( 514645 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @01:30PM (#7424567) Homepage
    To me, Revolutions has come the closest to accomplishing what the first Matrix did. The plot was so much better, flowed nicely, and the dialog was easy to understand yet had those hidden philosophy messages which is what made the first movie so successful.

    The special effects were amazing as well.

    What got me was the amazing ending. It was unexpected in someways, but totally made sense when you consider everything that happened in the movie.

    Also there still is enough unanswered questions that another trilogy could be created if they ever wanted to. They will probably wait 10-20 years before doing another trilogy if they ever wanted to.
    • I agree wholeheartedly. The ending was unexpected, but it was the obvious choice in retrospect. I guess a lot of sci-fi geeks expected a geek ending to a geek movie, with machines being blown to bits :) and sun in the sky. In other words, a totally unrealistic, feel-good, hollywood ending. When it didn't happen, people felt betrayed. Even more so since the ending is far from happy.

      • Re:[spoilers] Re:I thought Revolutions was very (Score:5, Insightful)

        by dcstimm ( 556797 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @02:12PM (#7424741) Homepage
        heh, your so right, everyone that didnt like the movie was expecting some type of hollywood ending like all the machines dieing and Neo becoming a god or something, this is why I LOVED the movie so much, it did totally the oppisite. Most people like walking out of the theater feeling good inside, all warm and fuzzy, like something special just happened. (like in the first matrix)

        Also I think another reason people didnt like the movie is because they dont use their imagination. They dont think about what happened, they dont understand the movie. They are expecting everything to be candy coated and spoon feed to them.

        Thank you Wacowski Brothers for not doing that!

    • Re:I thought Revolutions was very good (Score:5, Insightful)

      by rjamestaylor ( 117847 ) <rjamestaylor@gmail.com> on Saturday November 08, 2003 @07:13PM (#7426039) Journal
      Last night I took my wife to Matrix Revolutions for our Friday night date (our kids' Mimi is visiting; we dumped them on her). Earlier this week I said [slashdot.org] I was disappointed that their wasn't a Matrix-in-a-Matrix and that the final was panned as resoundly that it was.

      Did the panners SEE this movie? We thought it was great. Confusing to follow -- we purposefully had a movie and then dinner so we could talk about it -- but rewarding and satisfyingly concluding (the whole universe doesn't have to end just to provide closure, people).

      The action was awesome, so was the passion and interpersonal storyline. Neo and Trinity, Morpheous and Nairobi (sp?), Link and his wife (names?), Morpheous and Neo and Oracle, Frenchman and his wife/trophy, Agent Smith and Neo, Oracle and Architect, and even Machines and Humanity. Character development was good, too: the young boy rescued by Neo, between I and II, who idolized Neo developed very well, for example.

      At the point Neo made his bargain with the Machines and let Smith infect him I turned to my wife, who I met in a 2 year post-undergraduate degree Bible school, and said, "He who knew no sin became sin on our behalf..." (2 Cor 5:21a) and "God, sending His own Son in the likeness of the flesh of sin and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh" (Romans 8:3/partial): that is, Neo localized Agent Smith and, being physically plugged in, even though he could possibly make it into the Matrix without the plugs, he sacrificed himself to terminate the viral agent of death. BTW, If this doesn't sound familiar, look at this [recoveryversion.org]:

      Although Christ did not have the sin of the flesh, He was crucified in the flesh (Col. 1:22; 1 Pet. 3:18). Thus, on the cross He judged Satan, who is related to the flesh, and the world, which hangs on him (John 12:31; 16:11), thereby destroying Satan (Heb. 2:14). At the same time, through Christ's crucifixion in the flesh, God condemned sin, which was brought by Satan into man's flesh. As a result, it is possible for us to walk not according to the flesh but according to the spirit that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us (v. 4).
      And there was much other philosophical treats scattered throughout -- love and karma, just words but given meaning by what they are connected with (the latter so very relevant to Slashdotters, especially those remembering Signal11 and the karma whore wars... :-).

      In short, once again I think reviews are useless (except in the case of Ben & JLo flicks) and I regret being influenced in the least by the nay-sayers. I think people pan movies like this just because its easier than admitting, "I need to see it again and ponder for a while what it all means."

    • To me, Revolutions has come the closest to accomplishing what the first Matrix did. The plot was so much better, flowed nicely, and the dialog was easy to understand yet had those hidden philosophy messages which is what made the first movie so successful.
      ...
      What got me was the amazing ending. It was unexpected in someways, but totally made sense when you consider everything that happened in the movie.

      Question - is this what all the people who say that the only way to not like these movies is to "not get"

  • Unfounded? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Madcapjack ( 635982 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @01:31PM (#7424570)
    From the headliner: I still haven't seen this film, so I'll refrain from passing judgment, but I'm ever so happy the matrix-within-a-matrix theories were unfounded.

    I disagree. The matrix within a matrix theory was well founded, but it proved wrong. These are not the same thing. If I told you I have a ripe strawberry in my hand, you would have the well founded belief that it is red, because ripe strawberries are red. But if it were blue, it doesn't mean that your belief was unfounded, at least until you saw the strwbrry.

    • "Founded" means that they had something to base it on. I'm guessing none of these people had access to the script, so all of thier theories were unfounded, whether they were right or wrong. They're just guesses based on what they want to movie to be.

    • Re:Unfounded? (Score:5, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 08, 2003 @02:05PM (#7424720)
      If I told you I have a ripe strawberry in my hand, you would have the well founded belief that it is red, because ripe strawberries are red. But if it were blue, it doesn't mean that your belief was unfounded, at least until you saw the strwbrry.

      <impression type="Neo">
      Whoa..
      </impression>

    • Re:Unfounded? (Score:5, Funny)

      by cryms0n ( 52620 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @02:50PM (#7424898)

      There is no strawberry.

    • Re:Unfounded? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Snaller ( 147050 )
      The matrix within a matrix theory was well founded, but it proved wrong.

      It did? What proof did you see? I saw nothing. In fact if its supposed to be a scifi film instead of fantasy, a matrix within a matrix still seems to be the only explanation that fits.

      • Re:Unfounded? (Score:3, Interesting)

        by ArmorFiend ( 151674 )
        a matrix within a matrix still seems to be the only explanation that fits.

        There's more than one way to skin a cat, just as there's more than one way to nest two realites. Unless you're using "matrix within a matrix" to also denote a sort of heaven-and-earth religious scheme.
  • I'm ever so happy the matrix-within-a-matrix theories were unfounded.

    Thanks. I was going to find that out myself at the 2:30 Matinee, but it's much better that you posted that on the main page.

    • CN said: I still haven't seen this film, so I'll refrain from passing judgment, but I'm ever so happy the matrix-within-a-matrix theories were unfounded.

      Translation: I haven't seen the film yet but I'll happily ruin at least one possible plot twist for the hundreds of thousands that read this website but haven't yet seen the film.

      Looks like CN's finally succombed to Katz-Taco disease.
  • I saw it last nite on the local ultra-screen, it was great. The fight scenes were less gratuitous than reloaded it seemed, but i don't think either of the movies can really stand on their own. Taken as a whole they're one kick ass 5 hour movie, but i think revolutions was the better of the two. As for the conclusion, it left some questions, but they really had to end it that way, there wasnt any other way to wrap up the series. Also, a question, the kid who greets them when the nebuchadnezzar returns to the

  • One missing theory (Score:5, Funny)

    by adjensen ( 58676 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @01:36PM (#7424596)
    Where's the theory that it's all real, the machines wised onto the fact that people were catching on, and modified the Matrix to make the last movie crap and therefore spoil the franchise, ending the crusade for enlightenment?

    Well, that's my theory anyway, nothing else makes a lot of sense. Back to sleep, folks.
  • oh come on!
    "but I'm ever so happy the matrix-within-a-matrix theories were unfounded."
    i specifically didn't click on the goddam link, and then that sentence caught my eye. you twats! (clearly not amused)

  • Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @01:42PM (#7424622)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Re:Er, really? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Peyna ( 14792 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @03:07PM (#7424962) Homepage
      If you're going to argue that there could be a matrix within a matrix you might as well also argue that the whole movie is just a dream, and that this entire world is just a pretend world within another.

      While it is indeed possible, there is no reason to believe that it is true, since it has no real bearing on the story. In fact, believing that it were true would make the entire story irrelevant and pointless.

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by account_deleted ( 4530225 )
        Comment removed based on user account deletion

        • Re:Er, really? (Score:3, Interesting)

          by nathanh ( 1214 )

          If you're going to argue that there could be a matrix within a matrix you might as well also argue that the whole movie is just a dream, and that this entire world is just a pretend world within another.

          Mmmmm... and? I don't really follow what you're trying to say here. Certainly it's the Wachowskis intention that you leave the film with questions exactly like that.

          Because it's a lame plot device. It's called a deus ex machina; literally "god from the machine". The "It was all a dream!" version

          • Because it's a lame plot device. It's called a deus ex machina; literally "god from the machine".

            It's funny you mention that. Guess what the name of that big spiky machine at the end is? Its name, though not mentioned in the movie, is the Deus Ex Machina.

      • Re:Er, really? (Score:3, Insightful)

        by dandelion_wine ( 625330 )
        Man, I spent two weeks on a giant blackboard trying to write a major paper on "Hume's Fork" -- trying to dig my way out of solipsism of the mind, and even solipsism of the present moment. What a friggin mess.

        Yes, it would make the story pointless. The reason why the Wachowskis are getting slagged for slinging Philosophy 101 is because they're introducing ideas without following them to their logical conclusions like good philosophers, or at least good sci-fi writers.

        Everything being an illusion *is* the s

  • Return of the One (Score:5, Funny)

    by QEDog ( 610238 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @01:43PM (#7424625)
    Neo: Never. I'll never be assimilated. You've failed, Agent Smith. I am the One, like all the ones before me.
    Agent Smith: So be it... One.
    [rays come out of his hand, electrocuting Neo. One of the Agents turns into the Oracle, she comes, and throws Agent Smith into space, and dies. Oracle dies in Neo's hands...]
    [Fade away]
    [Drum music in Zion, Zionites having a rave party using Sentinel parts as percusion instruments.]
    [Neo burns the body of Trinity, and she appears in yellow vapor form, as well as the Oracle, the Architect and even Tank]

  • I saw it last night (no spoilers) (Score:5, Interesting)

    by sjbe ( 173966 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @01:43PM (#7424626)
    I can't figure out what people are complaining about. It was a great movie, particularly if you consider all three movies to be one story. Granted, you have to like that sort of movie and you have to actually have an attention span, but if you do you should enjoy it. Basically if you like anime movies like Akira or the Gundam Wing series or Marvel's X-men comics (lots of action and some heavy pontificating) it should be right up your alley. I really enjoyed it.

    Maybe folks are complaining about the ending. (no I'm not going to give it away) It was surprising and very non-traditional but really good too. I thought it was a great close to the story arc. Leaves future sequels as a possibility too.

    • and Dragon Ball Z (Score:5, Funny)

      by zymano ( 581466 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @02:29PM (#7424811)
      which alot of the fighting effects came from.

      1. The flying scenes.
      2. The twins when they power up.
      3. Kung fu and the visible impact waves.
      4. People crashing through walls.

      The only things missing from the film ?

      1. Vegita
      2. Kama Kama haaa.
      3. Spirit Bomb
      4. King Kai . Oh wait.....the Oracle...lol.

      If DBZ is being made into a movie I recommend the Wachowski brothers.

    • Source of a number of complaints...(minor spoiler) (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Dimensio ( 311070 ) <darkstarNO@SPAMiglou.com> on Saturday November 08, 2003 @03:04PM (#7424950)
      I've seen a lot of complaints from people who just didn't like how things were resolved. They didn't have specific complaints about the storytelling, dialogue (which itself is fodder for snide commentary), action or anything but how the story played out. Specifically, they had their own ideas of how things should work out (such as the Matrix-in-a-Matrix) and when these things didn't come to fruition they became horribly disappointed and jaded.

      I'm not saying that everyone who hated the movie is like that -- some of them have valid complaints -- but many of the detractors, especially on the Matrix fan boards, have been citing the fact that events didn't work out how they wanted.

  • Understanding the Matrix (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Dan Guisinger ( 15506 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @01:43PM (#7424627) Homepage
    I was disappointed at first with Revolutions.

    However, last night I watched Reloaded again.
    You have to pay great attention during Reloaded to find your answers to the Matrix. They dont make sense if you've only seen movies 1 and 2, but they do if you've seen all 3. In particular, listen to what the architect says.

    While some may say reloaded is about reloading the Matrix....note that the Matrix never did get reloaded....but something the architect says makes me think different. And it explains Neo's sudden ability to interact with the machine world outside of the Matrix.
    • Dan, you're on the right track. You also have to realize there is a game of chess being played here, and not between the machines and the humans. A chessboard is, of course, a matrix. The Oracle is also considered "mother" by a few folks...another connection to the word "matrix." Titling the movies as "The Matrix..." doesn't mean that it is just referring to the various definitions one can find for that word...and there are a lot.

      Every encounter Neo has is akin to Alice making her way across the chess

    • While some may say reloaded is about reloading the Matrix....note that the Matrix never did get reloaded....but something the architect says makes me think different. And it explains Neo's sudden ability to interact with the machine world outside of the Matrix.

      I haven't seen episode three yet, but I'm interested in what you're suggesting... so correct me if this is not what you meant.

      Neo visits the Architect and they have a nice chat. The Architect says, "You have a choice," when he really doesn't have a

    • Re:Understanding the Matrix (Score:5, Insightful)

      by dokebi ( 624663 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @04:12PM (#7425236)
      I agree. I think a lot of people are distracted by the eye-candy and bad dialog. But they're are missing lot of the cool ideas in the film. For example, the idea of choice and freedom:
      **Spoiler warning**

      The matrix was perfected by giving people choices (Oracle's idea). It took away the perfect controllability, but it made people happier because it gave them a sense of freedom. But it wasn't true freedom, because everything inside the matrix was inevitable--choices can be predicted and acted upon. But the Final Choice, the choice that the ONE makes is the one that could un-do the matrix. It didn't happen for 6 previous matricies, but the seventh one it did.
      However when Neo chooses to save trinity instead of the rest of the human kind (in the 2nd film), and also when trinity comes with neo in the third one , they do it out of love, but it means that their choices really weren't free. They're bound to the "inevitability" of love. But at the same time, they *are* free to make the choices that could doom them. So there is a paradox that "inevitablity" and "fate", can both come from having free choice and not having free choice. But which one is real?

      Also, having peace and war is also matter of choices. The machines choose to honor their bargain, neo chose to (potentially) sacrifice himself to save the machines. So havin pgeace or war is also choices made by the parties (think Israel-palestine).

      There are a lot of hard ideas/paradoxes in the film besides, but people should look past the eye-candy and some bad acting and see it's not really that bad of a film at all.
      • Just my theory here. Think of Smith as a viral network. It absorbs a person or program and adds it to the network, becoming more powerful in the process. The machines need to hack that network and destroy it but they can't because it is no longer connected to them. Neo and the machine mind agreed to work together to destroy smith. When Neo entered the matrix to confront smith he did it by connecting through the machine mind. At the end of the fight Neo lets himself be absorbed by Smith and becomes part
        • This was kind of the theory I had, but I do still have one question (maybe I missed something) but why did agent Smith say the Oracle was his mother (right before he assimilated her, she said something like, "you son-of-a-bitch" and he said, "you would know Mother".) Was she responsible for creating agent Smith (would make sense, since she said she tries to "unbalance" the equations, while the Architect tries to "balance" the equations.)? Also, from the first movie when agent Smith is interogating Morpheu

  • Some "fun" observations. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by crazyhorse44 ( 242315 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @01:50PM (#7424650)
    -the "Trainman" was the gyrocopter guy from Mad Max
    -the face from Tron
    -the "face ship" modelled after the ships from Buckaroo Banzai
    -Robotech/Macross mecha
    -in the club... "CYPHERMEN" from THE INVISIBLES
    -Monica Bellucci is a fox.
    -in the Matrix... the programmers are all from India
    -the "Merovingians" were a line of kings in Southern France before the Middle Ages who believed themselves to be direct descendants of Jesus Christ. the Catholic Church wiped them out along with the Cathars, Gnostics and the Templars.
    -everyone needs to read THE INVISIBLES
    -there was more but I forgot it on the way home.
  • Isn't that like having multiple nested User Mode Linux [sourceforge.net] instances?
  • This explanation [dungeoneternal.com], while not perfect, is the best I've seen so far.

  • I had it all worked out (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Monkelectric ( 546685 ) <slashdot AT monkelectric DOT com> on Saturday November 08, 2003 @02:01PM (#7424697)
    I've always said I should be a hollywood writer ... On a long LONG drive to northern california I figured out the only sensible way the matrix universe could work and still maintain total coherency. I was extremely disapointed in the movie when I found out, they didnt even try to explain the whole thing, so here we go for the slashdot crowd:

    The universe in which the robots and humans reside is a *simulation* (not another matrix, but a simulation). The robots are vaguely aware of this, and have developed methods which allow them to manipulate the *real* universe a little. This manipulation is how they are able to program "people" and how agent smith is able to download himself into that guy. There would have been a great sub-plot about how the robots discovered this -- through their disection of humans (in the animatrix) they discover the biological equivalent of DEBUGGING facilities in humans. They discover strange indecipherable messages in biological processess. Even a monkey for a directory could have made this a memorable scene.

    In retrospect, the point of the second movie would have been to demonstrate that the robots could program humans -- with food. With cookies, with pills, etc etc.

    And finally, Neo, while not aware that the "real" universe is also a simulation, is able to manipulate it slightly as well -- this is why he can make shit blow up, and see without eyes.

    Hollywood, I am your messiah and I'm unemployed :)

    • Hollywood, I am your messiah and I'm unemployed :)

      The messiah you're not. That should have been modded as funny, considering it's one of the more asinine theories I've heard and doesn't take into account the philosophical underpinning of the trilogy that actually does explain how the machines are able to program humans. Read up on the Materialist philosophies of Hegel, Marx, and Lenin for starters.

      http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/m/a.htm#ma t erialism [marxists.org]

      What so many people don't seem to unders
  • but I'm ever so happy the matrix-within-a-matrix theories were unfounded.

    The thing about this whole silly series is that the producers can keep up making BS forever and people will keep going to see it. (and even if there are holes in the plot, people will theorize around it!) The whole premise is that you don't the full truth, hence, you can keep adding new twists. In 3 years, there'll be a new Matrix movie where we find out that Neo and Trinity are still alive because they just transcended to the next

  • Stop Complaining (Score:3, Informative)

    by AtaruMoroboshi ( 522293 ) <Anthony AT overwhelmed DOT org> on Saturday November 08, 2003 @02:05PM (#7424716) Homepage

    The makers of the Matrix have said for years that it is NOT a matrix-within-a-matrix.

    This is fairly common knowledge, and not, imho, a spoiler.

    .
  • Don't they run out of things to discuss fairly quickly?
  • I've only seen the first Matrix movie, which was awesome. Should I see Reloaded and Revolutions, or no?

    • Re:Question (Score:5, Insightful)

      by rokzy ( 687636 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @02:29PM (#7424814)
      yes, so long as:

      1. you don't expect them to be the best thing ever like many people (stupidly) did.

      2. your life doesn't revolve around you having a perfect understanding of The Matrix and it all being perfectly plausible.

      3. you can enjoy a film even if it doesn't tell you exactly what you want to hear and show you exactly what you want to see.
  • Metaphors, Analogies and the REAL [matrixcommunity.org]

    a bit more (easy access) [zionmainframe.org]

    There's plenty more... I've just begun drawing connections into that thread... Shall I introduce you to the woman in red ...training program [google.com]?

    open source project [freshmeat.net]

  • WARNING -SPOILER! (Score:4, Interesting)

    by be-fan ( 61476 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @02:22PM (#7424779)
    Anybody else see it as just straight biblical allegory? I'm not even a Christian, and it seemed rather blatent (even heavy-handed) to me.

    Neo - Christ
    Smith - Anti-christ
    Machine ruler - God

    So when Neo becomes able to do all that stuff in the real world, its like the miracles of Jesus. He can do it because he has "a connection to the source" --- in other words a connection to the divine. When he's fighting Agent Smith, Smith loses when he finally calls Neo "Neo" (instead of "Mr. Anderson" has he had been doing up to this point). That means he acknowledges Neo's status (accepts him as their savior) and is thus destroyed. Of course, Neo dies (sacrifices himself for his race) in a very cruxification-like scene (complete with cross-shaped light right before the end). All that stuff at the end about Neo potentially coming back is an allusion to the messiah.

    Or it could be something else entirely. To tell the truth, I don't care. The last two movies are pretty crappy (though I loved the first). The dialogue was truely bad --- those writers need to be shot, and the plot seemed very strained --- a lot of going from A to B because C said to.
  • A lot of people are trying to save the movie, saying that it had a much deeper meaning, or that it somehow left questions unanswered.

    I didn't really see that. My entire problem with the movie was that it took everything from the second movie at face value.

    The Architect had to be lying, there weren't six other Ones! It was a ruse to manipulate Neo's emotions! (Yes, there were six other Ones.)

    Neo can control machines outside the Matrix! There must be something deep and meaningful and cool and have a big tw

  • post i made somewhere else right after i saw it (Score:3, Interesting)

    by honold ( 152273 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @02:27PM (#7424803)
    i just got back, and while i wasn't as disappointed as most seem to be, i still walked away only thinking it was 'okay'.

    after i saw reloaded, i thought that there were a lot of interesting possibilities. we had seen bane who was clearly smith, and we had seen neo take down a sentinel in the real world. a few possibilities, in order of preference:

    1) neo became part machine as smith became part human, part of their meld
    2) neo is the messiah, which translates to 'all worlds'
    3) the real world is infact another matrix

    #1 is a stretch, but it's believable in the world we're described.

    #2 seems lame, as everything would be at face value and simply handed to us in reloaded

    #3 breaks the movie's own rules. if they did that, however well they did it, it would effectively make anything able to be rendered invalid with a thought. 'oh, oops, another matrix!' it would be difficult, for example, to feel anything if a character was killed off. this would be similar to superman suddenly NOT being affected by kryptonite, which is a rule of that world.

    i can look past some silly stuff. for example:
    - morpheus gains 30lbs in an hour's time
    - people start calling each other by nicknames ('merv', 'trin') in an hour's time
    - the young indian girl and the trainkeeper seem to have no real purpose
    - they should have selected someone other than an elderly african-american woman to be the new oracle
    - sentinels weren't able to be shot at in previous movies; only emps worked
    - for that matter, sentinels never relayed back to other computers when they found a ship
    - the twins seemed to die pretty easy in that explosion

    etc, etc, etc. all forgivable.

    what i would have liked, however, are 2 key things:

    1 would be the 'meld' explanation, having neo only have increasingly powerful machine abilities as smith has increasingly powerful human abilities. this would be another 'character learns his strengths' part of a movie, which is always very entertaining.

    2 would be monica belluci being the mother of the matrix. the architect scoffed when neo asked if she was, and we can now unfortunately presume that it's just because he doesn't respect her terribly much or doesn't like her being referred to as 'the oracle'. it would make sense that monica belluci be the mother, having gone against the merovingian to help the good guys in reloaded, etc.

    i would have also liked werewolves (vampires got enough coverage) to be better explored.

    i feel like the whole architect scene in reloaded split the audience into 3:

    1) people who don't really care, and just want to enjoy the story.
    2) people who are turned off by all of that over-their-head mumbo jumbo
    3) people who see potential depth and are intrigued

    the people in group 1 will be the people in group 1 no matter what happens. the people in group 2 have been pissed off, and the people in group 3 are set up to be disappointed. in this way, i feel the movie delivered. why split the audience at all, then? why the semblance of complexity when there isn't any? if they had kept the end of reloaded simple, group 1 would stay the same, group 2 wouldn't be pissed and fall into group 1, and group 3 would accept that the movie has become more simple and be surprised if revolutions was anything but simple.

    i don't know where i'm going with the rest of this, just dumping some thoughts. if i get some responses, i'm sure i'll have others.

    • Re:post i made somewhere else right after i saw it (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Dimensio ( 311070 ) <darkstarNO@SPAMiglou.com> on Saturday November 08, 2003 @03:14PM (#7424978)
      - people start calling each other by nicknames ('merv', 'trin') in an hour's time

      'Trin' was not exactly prescedented, but I can overlook it. "Merv" isn't an issue at all; Trinity was making a snide remark.

      - the young indian girl and the trainkeeper seem to have no real purpose

      The trainman was somewhat gratituous, but Sati has a level of importance that is implied more than explained. The oracle allowed her old shell to be destroyed specifically because she believes that Sati is important to the future of both the humans and the machines. It's just that there really wasn't any way to develop her much in the movie.
      • Oh, and here I was thinking the Oracle "allow[ing] her old shell to be destroyed" was because Gloria Foster, [imdb.com] the actress who played the Oracle in 1 and 2, died in the middle of filming. But I'm sure the Wachowskis were intending to use a mystical, pseudo-bullsh*t explanation all along, just like with every other aspect of the movie, so that cubicle philosophers could fill in the details for them.

        Yeah, that's probably it.

  • Interesting facts. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Hugonz ( 20064 ) <hugonz@nOSpam.gmail.com> on Saturday November 08, 2003 @03:06PM (#7424961) Homepage
    In the train station, the letters on the wall read "MOBIL AVE", which, changing the order or the letters, read "LIMBO AVE" which is whre neo is, in Limbo.

    When the trainman jumps across the train lines, check the destination on the train, it reads "LOOP". The lines on the train station are looped, and Neo returns to the same place after trying to get out.

    Just my 2 cents.

  • SPOILER: Machines using humans for electricity... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Natalie's Hot Grits ( 241348 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @03:12PM (#7424974) Homepage
    The whole plot about the purpose of having humans in pods "generating" electricity for the machines was never explained.. The laws of thermodynamics do not allow for this, and that is why the movie seems to not be closed completely for me...

    I believe there was another purpose for the matrix.. that purpose being for the humans and machines to live on earth in peace. The arthitect was trying to balance an equation which couldn't be balanced, and the oracle trying to unbalance it.. It was a power struggle between the programs within the matrix, and a freedom struggle by the humans.

    But the idea that the humans were generating electricity is proposterous. I have said it since the begining of the Matrix series.. and I'll say it again. The laws of physics do not allow humans to generate enough electricity to even grow plants to feed themselves, much less have excess power to power the machines. There MUST be some alternative source of power... At maximum, if the power extraction worked at 100% efficiency, and plant growing worked at 100% efficiency (that is, ALL electricity produced was converted to light which grew plants) then there would be exactly enough food to go around for the people that were already alive. There would be no way to reproduce, and no way to have excess electricity.

    I have heard arguments that the machines figured out quantum physics, etc.. but if they did that, why not have nuclear power generators? Why not have solar pannels in space? why not move to Mars? These questions all prove that humans were not needed to generate electricity...

    Others tell me that is just a plot hole that I have to deal with, but if it is, then somebody didn't even attempt to do their homework. There are THOUSANDS of ways more efficient and easier to generate electricity without the sun than to harvest humans in pods. Yet so many people still think that is why the humans were inserted into the matrix. bogus.

    That being said, where are all the machines in the real world? There are sentinels and crop growers, but these were all there to maintain the matrix. What about all the other mahcines that roam the world? Did they still exist? Or did the machines insert every program into the matrix so humand and machines could occupy the world together without conflict?

    I think the whole idea they are trying to get across is theological. There are 2 worlds, the physical world, and the machine world (matrix). Just like before christ, there were 2 worlds, the supernatural (god[s]) world(s), and the natural (human/physical) world.

    I believe there will be some more matrix movies.. not necessarilly named "matrix" but something else. I think the era of the matrix is ended in Revolutions, which is why the title is named such...

    These are just all IMO... Please comment and argue and disagree :)

  • Not as bad as I feared, but still... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by starseeker ( 141897 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @04:56PM (#7425422) Homepage
    Here's my little "what I might have done" twist on things:

    a) The Merovingian would turn out to be in fact a previous version of the one, from "a much older version of the Matrix". Neo is the Matrix 3.0's one, this guy was from an older one. In fact he has better insight into this Matrix than Neo does, as an outsider. He's just decided there's no point to all this.

    b) The reason he has is that no one is in fact unplugged - Zion is a spilloff Matrix for the people who must fight the system. In this matrix, the unease they still feel is masked by their fight to save the world, and they are thus rendered harmless. They also remove other disruptive elements from the Matrix, in essence being very unwitting house cleaners. This explains a point never addressed at all - when the one supposedly "work up" and freed the first people, how did they rebuild themselves from the physical state Neo started in? He needed extensive medical help to function again - the first people would have had none. Simple answer - no one has ever really woken up and formed Zion. If someone did wake up, they died. That machine that unplugged them, also took their head off for good measure.

    c) Neo, like the previous ones, is in fact a program himself. He has no awareness of this, and his sentient mind fully believes he is human. The Merovingian knows he is a program, and that is a further reason the fight is of little interst to him. Neo, the new one, has no such insight and in any case is built so he will fight for humanity. This is part of his function as the one program. He is "seeded" into the Matrix to bring about a necessary reprogramming, as the system has built to a point of instability where matters must be restarted now in order to maintain full control. (Think Windows box - saving work and rebooting, because you can tell it's about to go unstable on you.)

    d) However, the One has a couple unintentional side effects - a) it overwrites a part of an agent program, creating a virus and b) develops a deep relationship with Trinity. Now the @#$@# has really hit the fan, and data corruption begins to take place.

    e) The Merovingian, interested in his own existance and well versed in the Matrix, is now under threat from the virus program. He is compelled to prepare for war. He check codes and prepares to isolate certain sections of the Matrix he controls, but then he stops. An amused, ironic smile comes over his face, and he turns toward a door, fishing out a key.

    f) Smith the virus corrupts the system - the Matrix more easily, but subtle effects begin to seep into the more heavliy shielded "real world" environment. Initially Zion appears to be helped by this, since the real world programs like the sentinals are not prepared for this kind of attack and are the first things to fail. No one understands it but the conclusion is Neo somehow did it. Big party starts, but then odd things happen - lights begin to behave sporadically, computer systems begin to show flashes of Smith's face, and the weaker people mentally begin to show faint signs of Smith's personality. Neo, as a program, also comes under attack sooner than the human minds but is better able to protect himself. He contacts the machines directly using his still not understood powers and proposes the deal. It is accepted and he enters the Matrix, to deal with the virus at its source.

    g) Big fight. Neo holds his own against one of the Smiths (movie fight was OK here, except after crater impact Neo shows brief program characteristics as he rewrites routines to repair and strengthen himself, and gets up stronger). Both programs are rewriting themselves as they fight, and as the Matrix becomes more and more tasked action outside Smith and Neo slows down.

    h. (In reality humans aren't power sources BTY - their brains are the hardware of the Matrix. The brainpower not being used in their Matrix existance is used to power the system - the brain being the one thing beyond the machines to duplicate. As their

  • The sequel to Revolutions is.... (Score:3, Informative)

    by rufey ( 683902 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @05:41PM (#7425634)
    The Matrix Online game. Its supposed to be a massive role-playing on-line game where you play against others. More info here [gamefaqs.com] and here [gamershell.com].

    From the latter article I reference above:

    "The Wachowski Brothers' vision for The Matrix is one that extends far beyond the theatrical trilogy, and the world they have created is so rich that we've chosen to tell inter-connected Matrix-related stories in multiple mediums," said Joel Silver, producer of the Matrix films. "Our goal in collaborating with Ubi Soft is to create a multiplayer online game that reflects the trilogy's highly stylized storytelling and innovative action, taking fans beyond the boundaries of the movie screen and into a 'persistent world' where they can fully explore the vast realm of the Matrix."

    Revolutions wasn't supposed to give you the answers to everything. In fact, at the same time that Reloaded came out, a video game called Enter The Matrix came out, which contains some information pretaining to the Oracle and the family (father, mother, child) you see at the beginning of Revolutions in the train station. You learn who the family is, and, more importantly, what deal the father made with the Mero (french dude) in Reloaded (yes, he's in Reloaded, being led away from the table when Nero, Morpheus, and Trinity approach the Mero in the Resturant in Reloaded). In Revolutions, you only learn of the father's side of the deal. You never learn what the Mero got in return.

    I've seen the movie and was dissapointed that it didn't answer my questions and I would probably have to play Enter The Matrix and The Matrix Online in order to grasp some of the answers I was expecting. I'm not a game-playing person and don't necessarily want to play the games.

    If you realize that Revolutions isn't going to answer your questions and just sit back and enjoy it, it is actually a good movie. The more I think about the movie (I saw it Wednesday morning), the more I realize that it wasn't nearly as disappointing as I first thought.

    I just wish it answered more questions, and, therefore, didn't force me to play the video and on-line games to fully grasp everything.

  • Newhart (Score:3, Funny)

    by Rapier_M ( 27662 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @07:12PM (#7426035) Homepage
    I was hoping that Neo would wake up in bed between Bob Newhart and the woman who played his wife on his first series.

  • The Trilogy was Fun (Score:3, Insightful)

    by salesgeek ( 263995 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @07:45PM (#7426210) Homepage
    I enjoyed all three movies. Far and away my favorite was the first. Reloaded and Revolutions were pretty good. If anything Revolutions tied up the story too tightly - and we are all so used to being left guessing.

    Two comments: First, this movie felt like a two hour conclusion, with no introduction, no rising action. It was as if it was literally the resolution of the second movie.

    Second, A lot of the griping I've read is of the "it would have been better if" variety. Movies are frusterating in this respect - after the first movie in a series, everyone has preconceptions of the way the story will flow.

  • My idea wasn't used... (Score:5, Funny)

    by glwtta ( 532858 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @08:00PM (#7426276) Homepage
    I really wanted to see them introduce two new characters - The Postgres and The MySQL, who team up to defeat The Oracle. Now that a lot of geeks would've been able to relate to.

  • What about... (Score:3, Funny)

    by sharkey ( 16670 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @08:33PM (#7426407)
    I still haven't seen this film, so I'll refrain from passing judgment, but I'm ever so happy the matrix-within-a-matrix theories were unfounded.

    The Lone Gunmen?

  • The truth about Matrix Revolutions (Score:3, Insightful)

    by lone_marauder ( 642787 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @08:52PM (#7426479)
    Just got back from seeing the movie. First of all, the movie kicked ass. It beat the shit out of the second one. So why does everyone hate it?

    The reason is pure, flat out, in your face, ignorance and hypocrisy. Ignorance is not knowing what the deal was after seeing the first movie - filled with symbolism and blatantly obvious references to the culmination in Revolutions that pissed everyone off. It is proof that they hate without knowing, which brings us to hyprocrisy.

    The story ended with a definative answer to the deeper questions asked throughout the trilogy, and people hated the answer that was provided. They hated it because of prejudice and intolerance, which is exactly why they claim to hate that answer in the first place.

    As well put by the movie, the two most important things in human experience are belief and choice. Don't let anyone take either away from you. See the movie and decide for yourself.

  • They destroyed a potentially awesomeTrilogy... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by danielrm26 ( 567852 ) * on Saturday November 08, 2003 @11:58PM (#7427111) Homepage
    Ok, first of all, let me just feed my ego and post this link. This is the post that I made on the subject right after Reloaded, and in it I pointed out that they *would* do the god, Christ, and reunification of man and machine plot. There, now I feel better. :)

    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=65437&cid=60 36 019

    That being said, let me just point out the main reasons this Trilogy has been ruined as a major piece of sci-fi. Note that I didn't say it made the thing sucked completely and horribly; there is a difference. The series is still awesome for what it offers, but there were many (including myself) who had expectations of sci-fi (logical) purity. Those expectations simply weren't met.

    Some will argue that the Trilogy put forth the ultimate in depth and philosophy, and that the reason so many complain is because they aren't smart enough to get it. This is utter crap. People who believe this have missed the boat, and I encourage them to read something like "The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect" in order to see what true sci-fi is.

    In my view the difference is this: while true sci-fi asks you to believe something extraordinary, it takes great care not to break the rules that it lays down for itself. And once you accept the principle thing they are asking you to believe, you can then pursue the rest of the story as if it is more or less true science. *THAT* is, in my opinion, *true* sci-fi.

    My contention, and the contention of many others, is that this Trilogy is nothing more than a collection of very cool concepts drawn from mythology and philosophy, wrapped up in an attractive action/marital arts/special effects shell. Again, this is a winning combination if you accept it for what it is, but it should *not* be mistaken for true sci-fi genius. Here's why:

    1. The energy source issue is lame at best. It just doesn't work. You can keep a human vegetable alive for years with very little going on in their brain. THEY DON'T NEED THE MATRIX to keep bodies alive. If you grow humans and make them into idiots with a minimal amount of brain activity, you can just feed them for decades and they will produce all the power that they would in the Matrix. The fact that they are living out a 9-5 job in the Matrix isn't going to generate the machines any more juice than just keeping them alive. Hell, even if it DID generate more energy, would it be so much that it offset the expenditure of maintaining the Matrix? I think not. Either way, this power source issue is the ENTIRE reason for the movie. Without the use of humans as batteries there is no Matrix, no Neo, no Zion (read on to see why there would be no Zion). The entire Trilogy rests on the energy issue, and it doesn't hold water.

    2. The second major problem lies in the fact that you can't build a f*cking city that deep inside the earth. Ask any scientist who's versed in the matter; it's not possible. Again, they are asking quite a bit of the viewer in this regard.

    3. They never covered how Neo, a flesh and blood human, is able to exert control over machines in the real world. You see, what they did was switch everything up on us. This started as a sci-fi movie - the scorching of the sky, the underground city, and the war vs. the machines. This was the plot originally, and I think it was a good one. The fact that there was a false reality where the computers kept humans was very cool, and the fact that you could do cool shit while in the Matrix was cool. But the whole thing was laid out as science. Morpheus asks if Neo thinks he's breathing air in the simulation. Logic guided that. The fact that you have to "believe" about the jump program, again, guided by logic. At that point, they hadn't broken their own rules (even though the initial things they were asking you to believe were massive). The problem, however, is that they ended up, in the third movie, with Neo as a Christ figure who could blow up machines with a mere thought. Huh? How so?
    • I forgot about the mechs not having protection for the pilot; that was lame. Throw a rock at their head and it's game over.

      And the fact that they didn't have any EMPs inside the city was questionable. It's true that you lose your computers if you pop one, but that at least buys you some time. To put a finer point on it, if it was such a bad idea to have an EMP then they wouldn't have been waiting anxiously for the ship to show up with one.

      -danielrm26

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