The RIAA and French Button-Makers 150
Alien54 writes
"Requiring permission to innovate? Feeling entitled to search others' property? Getting the power to act like law enforcement in order to fine or arrest those who are taking part in activities that challenge your business model? Don't these all sound quite familiar? Centuries from now (hopefully much, much sooner), the actions of the RIAA, MPAA and others that match these of the weavers and button-makers of 17th century France will seem just as ridiculous."
other examples of history repeating itself (Score:5, Informative)
now we have the usa whining to china/ thailand/ indonesia/ etc to enforce american IP laws, with beijing playing lipservice for political and economic reasons while on the streets of hong kong you can still buy $10,000 worth of software bundled on a CD/ DVD for $3
and obviously, in 150 years, china will be issuing diplomatic myspace invectives to azerbaijan for stealing it's genetic code for it's zero G, no atmosphere moon crops... or whatever
aha this explains Charles Dickens speaking tours (Score:1)
Re:other examples of history repeating itself (Score:4, Funny)
Myspace not only still around, but an official channel in 150 years? Wow, and I thought Phillip K. Dick had some psychotically frightening future visions...
Re:other examples of history repeating itself (Score:5, Informative)
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-matthew
Re:other examples of history repeating itself (Score:5, Insightful)
It's more like in 30 years, and it's more like they will be RIAA-ing their own people to death. The copying of information and ideas are some of the few liberties and rights the Chinese people have, by pressuring them to kill that - the US is not only destabilizing the country and the region, but also pre-destining the death of a lot of people. In the US, the RIAA and the MPAA have certain legal restrictions that keep people from being shot in the head to set an example. Does anyone think for a moment that they wouldn't persue that if they could lawfully get away with it? Well, in China, the legal structure that holds back the powers that be is weak and non existent in many areas. When their content and invention industries start to make the transtition to a service based high tech model, it will likely be brutal and violent. It will also likely create the bitterest resentment of the US that one could imagine. For those who wish to impose copyright and patnet, I have no problem calling them what they are: murderers.
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Hyperbole, this is argoff. Argoff, hyperbole. Oh, I see you two already know each other!
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Re:other examples of history repeating itself (Score:4, Interesting)
which meant that american authors rarely made it into print.
on the streets of hong kong you can still buy $10,000 worth of software bundled on a CD/ DVD for $3
and so the domestic product withers on the vine while the West outsources research and development to China.
Re:other examples of history repeating itself (Score:4, Interesting)
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A lot of truth to that. Art Buchwald, who passed away last night, filed a copyright infringement suit against the movies studios who released the Eddie Murphy movie Coming To America, claiming they had stolen his script. Buchwald won the case. Not only that, he was based on the
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typical moronic anti-americanism (Score:5, Insightful)
but some people ascribe to american behavior what is nothing more than human behavior, common to all peoples, common to the history of the entire world, common to all current cultures. anti-americans castigate the usa for crimes that all nations commit. this doesn't excuse the usa, but why focus only on the usa when other countries do/ did the same? of course, when other countries do the same, it's all easily explained by... the nefarious influence of washington dc. i'm amazed sometimes at diatribes that wind up by logical inference from creative lines of reasoning for blaming the usa for situations and conditions that existed before the usa itself even existed!
if you have a crime that the usa specifically and uniquely does, then please, by all means, enter into the withering invectives
but if you want to sound intelligent, and not like a blind ethnocentric nationalist yourself, try not to criticize the usa for something all nations and peoples are guilty of. it makes your blind prejudice obvious and pathetic
look: blindly embracing and excusing the usa (or any nation) is simple stupid nationalism
but blindly kicking and incriminating the usa (or any nation) is EQUALLY simple and stupid nationalism
the only morally and intellectually sound point of view on the usa, or any nation, is to look at what they have done as good, and what they have done as bad. anything else, and you're a blind ethnocentric nationalist. whether that means you blindly prosecute the usa, or blindly love the usa.
yes: you. you are the same as an american ultranationalist. such a person is stupid. so are you. the only intelligent point of view of the usa is one that sees the good and bad and can wiegh both in their mind at the same time impartially
all else is useless boring typical lowest common denominator tribal vendetta
people have to learn to talk IDEAS, not TRIBES
until they do, people like you are part of the problems in the world, not the solution to them
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Agreed. However the question I'm wonder is: do the other nations raise nearly as much of a stink about being 'ripped off'?
Trouble for me is no products really come to mind other than say, foreign films which are gleefully subbed and distributed here (e.g. anime, chinese films like "crouching tiger, hidden dragon"
morons yes (Score:2)
just like creationists, blindly pro-america or blindly anti-america morons are of course utterly stupid. but you can't laugh, you have to cry. because there are SO MANY OF THEM. and they are highly motivated and highly outspoken. combined
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Dont go THAT far away... (Score:3, Informative)
That is why I laugh REALLY hard when I read that RIAA is going to start prosecuting P2P file downloaders in Mexico...
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Because a manufactirer sets the MSRP at a certain level, does that really set an intrinsic value of that object? It has been a while since economics classes, but I am thinking that if the market is only willing to pay $3 for something doesn't that make it worth $3 rather than $10,000 or any other arbitrary value set by the manufacturer?
The whole question of piracy aside, software is only "worth" whatever someone is willing to pay for it, and t
Lacking... (Score:5, Interesting)
If we're doomed to repeat our history, lets at least flesh out said history so we know what to expect. Maybe we can even escape the doom of repeating our history with a little more thought.
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Of course, the third alternative is that you're suicidal. In which case you should seek some help.
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Page Not Found (Score:5, Informative)
It's all related! (Score:4, Funny)
Re:It's all related! (Score:5, Informative)
It may be modded funny, but the Jacquard Loom was the precursor of the modern punch-card computer. I remember from James Burke's original "Connections" series that the idea of registering patterns on a card led to the invention of a rudimentary computing system used to track the US Census (I think it was the 1890 Census, but my memory is flaky).
Re:It's all related! (Score:5, Interesting)
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/.ed (Score:2)
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Wait.... (Score:5, Insightful)
If a private company being given the same powers as the police doesn't seem ridiculous, there is something else wrong.
Bad analogy (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Bad analogy (Score:5, Insightful)
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In their case, pirates would be more appropriate.
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This has absoloutly no bearing on the **AA's actions.
This is more akin to if unions had the govn't not letting ANYONE exept for union workers do a specific job.
The Weaver one (If a weaver wants to try out a new pattern then need a large commity to ok it) is also not related to the **AA's tactics.
These are all about stiffiling creativity or competition, and the **AA WANTS you to be creative, why? So that they can sign you up, steal your work, and then charge you for the privledge.
Re:Bad analogy (Score:5, Insightful)
The *AA wants, for instance, to stop everyone from develop software that could be used to backup dvds. They are, for instance, stopping TiVo from developing new features to their set-top box. Those two are examples of the first item, "Requiring permission to innovate", and was illustrated in the history told by the guild requiring that anyone that wants to weave their fabrics differently should have the guild's permission.
They are requesting powers of police to watch what _I_ have in my HD, and what _I_ talk in my private net connections. This is a clear example of the second item, "Feeling entitled to search others' property".
More, they want powers to emprision or fine whoever they _think_ have their bits in the HD. This is an example of the third item; in the case on the FTA, the button-makers guild wanted to search everyone's homes, to find if they had any clothes with fabric-made buttons (that were not made by guilded members) and they wanted to imprision and fine whoever had those.
Every one of those items is telling the story of how the guilds wanted to protect their business model, regardless of the rights and protections that the citizens should have, including the right to the privacy of their own homes. The *AAs want to protect their business model, regardless of the rights and protections that the citizens should have, including the right to the privacy of their own homes and their private communications. So, as I told, the analogy is complete and perfect.
Don't just read the FTA, but the two linked-by pages too...
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If it was capable of recording or copying, the MPAA would seek to regulate it.
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O'rly? They're already trying to tell you what you can do with the media you create and publish.
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In addition to what the other responders said, actually they are. They are attempting to ban the tools needed for widespread self publication simply beacuse thay CAN be used to vilate their regulations. P2P and the crippling of the mini-disc and attempting to restrict internet radio are just a few tiny examples.
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Funny, that's exactly where DRM has been heading for a while now, and oh! Look!
Before long, you won't be able to make your own movie by yourself, because for all the computer knows, your video is actually a shaky-cam rip of the latest and greatest
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I was curious about this, so I did some research on the Blu-Ray side and found this posting at Roxio Community [roxio.com]:
There are more examples of outdates businesses (Score:5, Interesting)
Do you know those ridiculous laws, where it's required that a man with a flag or lantern runs in front of a car? No, the legislative ain't always been stupid (and these century old laws being the proof), they exist for exactly the same reason why train stations are usually at the outskirts of towns (or, at least, were 'til the towns grew): The horse cabs were fearing for their business.
And for a good reason. They weren't needed anymore as a means of transport if people could drive themselves, or if they could use the train instead. So the stations were outside of towns (to "protect the health" of the people, of course, as the official reason), so you had to take a cab to get there anyway.
We're now facing the same with the mafiaa. They are pushing at the lawmakers to install laws to protect their outdated business model, not wanting to realize that their time is over and they're not needed anymore.
Well, I guess in a century, people will shake their heads over our copyright laws, just like we're shaking them now over the requirement of men with flags in front of cars.
Re:There are more examples of outdates businesses (Score:5, Interesting)
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And now they're still charming, while all the "progressive" towns in upstate New York became economically depressed ru
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L'histoire se repete .... why are there sooo many airports in the world, where there is no railway connection with downtown. From big Singapore, where the LRT "just missed it" to Denver, to here in Calgary, where there is even not a decent public bus going to the airport. It's all because of the taxi rackets. Not the cab driv
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Just a week ago I was sharing a ski chairlift with a guy who had been a consultant for Mayor Webb in Denver. He told me about the pressure that had been put on the administration to not run the LRT to DIA. Asinine that they caved into that.
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and you're right... in Calgary you might as well take a cab, because transit to the airport is hopeless. (not to mention that the privately operated "airporter" bus has now shut down too...)
The red flag act (Score:2)
When gasoline powered road vehicles started to appear in larger numbers, and agricultural machinery became more portable, the Act was repealed.
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And how could you be more controlable than by being a criminal who's not been caught yet? You won't raise your voice, you won't protest, you won't demonstrate, so they don't start to show some undue interest in you. The additional surveillance also works towards that goal. With face recognition, nothing's easier than scanning those tapes and checking whether you d
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There's a key difference here (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm no fan of the RIAA and by no means condone their actions to defend "their" blessed IP, but there's a key difference between the RIAA and the French Button-Makers. Those who dared innovate with buttons made of cloth would be punished because it completely cut the button makers out of the loop. The RIAA has not yet gone after those who dare produce music (independant bands, labels, social networking, etc.) without being under their auspices.
About the only similarity I see is that both the guilds and the RIAA are asshats and were going after end-users. Beyond that, the analogy breaks down.
Re:There's a key difference here (Score:5, Insightful)
Except in the purchase of blank music CDs, of course, which cost more because you're going to presumably put music on them owned by the RIAA. And they have sent take-down notices to bands who've got their own MP3s up on the web.
You might also say that the mandatory DRM in ipods hurts bands who want their music shared by keeping it from being shared by the uninitiated.
That's not exactly nothing, is it?
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Re:There's a key difference here (Score:4, Informative)
The big deal is that it only affect music CDRs. Not all CDRs.
The only reason I can think to use music CDRs is if you're using a standalone CD recorder which will only take music CDRs (this is a common, though artificial limitation).
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the DRM is not mandatory in iPods.
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SHHH! Stop giving them ideas!
Needlepoint and Counterpoint (Score:3, Funny)
Not the same (Score:2, Interesting)
The French buttonmakers were wary of being undersold and made redundant by cheaper methods/producers. The **AA are keen to protect the way their product is distributed and used. They may wish but cannot prosecute other artists/publishers from publishing content w/o DRM or anything else. What they want to do or keep is their own product from being distributed against their will. That is, to be against it being virtually freely duplicated and/or redistributed w/o compensation to them. One might not like
Forget French Button Makers... (Score:5, Insightful)
- Player Pianos - When these were introduced, they were hated by musicians because they thought it threatened their livelihood, "who's going to pay us to play when you can just get one of these pianos?"
- Phonograph Records - Many musicians hated these for the same reason when they first came out, "who's going to pay us to play when you can just buy a record for a couple of bucks?"
- Radio broadcasts of records - When radio stations first began broadcasting records instead of live music performances, many musicians again felt this threatened them, "Who's going to buy our records when they can hear them on the radio for free?"
In hindsight it's obvious that none of these technologies were threats to musicians and in fact, in many cases they helped them.Re: (Score:2)
Still, a popular musician could make a lot more. For an average performer it might be a wash financially, but ultimately it was a lot less work.
But, lik
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The dawn of guilds and history repeating (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:The dawn of guilds and history repeating (Score:4, Insightful)
The big difference between surgeons and electricians on one side, and entertainment and button-makers on the other side, is that even minute faults in the former's practices can lead directly to loss of life and property, while no such fatal consequences are possible for entertainers or button-makers. As for machinery cutting off peoples fingers, we have got some other ways of controlling safety in general, such as the OSHA.
Consider other, non-critical, guild like watch-makers or painters, once also strictly controlled ... At worst, the control on their work would be along "fit for purpose"-regulations, but I don't think anyone has ever died from a stopped watch or a house painted in the wrong color.
ObGroucho (Score:2)
"Either he's dead, or my watch has stopped."
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Maybe not fatal, but a single wardrobe malfunction could irrevocably damage the minds of the children! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
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I would venture the guess that more than one person in history has died as a result of a faulty time piece, but the fact is that it doesn't matter. If it's not critical, why not make your own watch? I'll venture the answer that, if
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You forget the tremendous negative career consequences of a wardrobe malfunction?
(Soory, your comment was made for that. You are right though.)
"but I don't think anyone has ever died from a stopped watch"
Now here I think you might indeed be wrong. I can imagine some scuba diver or sailor getting into serious trouble due to a watch stopping.
all the best,
drew
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Ah, I beg to differ. Yes there is. What? The lack of a Free Market in the first place, that's what! Copyrights are government granted and protected monopolies in case you hadn't noticed. (Since you were playing DA, I am responding to the person you were playing and not to you!)
Get rid of those government monopolies and we can t
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Isn't it true that you are free to write your own music?
Isn't it true that we all share that freedom?
Isn't it also true that you are free to perform, record, and sell this music for whatever you wish?
Copyright is good. There, I said it. Copyright encourages innovation by ensuring that those who innovate have the ability to profit from their innovations. The reason it expires is to encourage innovation, not just among the rest of society, but among the original artist. I stand by my stat
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Isn't it true that we all share that freedom?
Isn't it also true that you are free to perform, record, and sell this music for whatever you wish?"
Indeed, all true, sort of. If I tried to sing some of my lyrics, I might actually suffer bodily harm, but that is another issue. ~;-)
When it comes to a lot of my works, I try to make it a little more free by using copyleft licenses.
"Copyright is good."
While I think that it might very well be able to be good,
Ob Heinlein Quote (Score:5, Interesting)
- Robert Heinlein, "Life Line", 1939
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So true. An individual or corporation should know that guaranteeing their profits is the proper function of the legislative branch, so they should send lobbyists to congress, not lawyers to the courts.
The Guilds Were a Powerful Force (Score:3, Insightful)
One good way to appreciate the power and function of the guilds is to read about the long history of the city of London; it has evolved to the present day on the basis of the actions of the guilds and their interactions with other parts of society.
The article is shallow and superficial. When I read it, part of my mind sided with the French buttonmakers. They saw their tradecraft being walmartized, and they protested.
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Of course the moment they want to search peoples closets, and arrest people is where they cross the line.
It's not so much innovation they were stifling, it was the market. I suspect that if they had created cloth buttons, it would have been seen as a great innovation.
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Now, virtually all beads of any kind are manufactured in China. In the case of Veneti
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Upon noticing that China is not only mass producing the beads that you put so much effort into, but they are doing it very cheaply by cutting corners and using inferior materials, the bead makers band together and compete directly with the cheap bead manufacturers by mass producing high quality beads. This does a couple things. First, it ensures that high quality beads are available to all artists/designers/etc. They can still buy the cheap stuf
Guild ... (Score:3, Funny)
Guilds, Monopolies, and G. K. Chesterton (Score:1)
From the s
Didn't the Writers' guild (Score:1)
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Actually, it was invented by publishers, to preserve an information ownership monopoly based on a government censorship policy. quote taken from the question copyright webiste [questioncopyright.org].
Stationers Monopoly in the 15th,16th,17th century (Score:3, Interesting)
The U.S. was founded at a time where freedom from such long-lived monopolies was important.
Unfortunately, Copyright monopolies have been extended from 13 years to 90-120 years.
http://www.culturaleconomics.atfreeweb.com/cpu.ht
Everyone is missing the point (Score:3, Funny)