Buenos Aires Issues a 'Netflix Tax' For All Digital Entertainment 165
New submitter DoILookAmused writes A few years ago, the Argentinean government implemented a 35% tax on all offshore buys using a credit card. In yesterday's press release, the city of Buenos Aires announced it will charge a 3% gross income tax for all streaming or media purchase abroad allegedly to bring it to "competitive prices with local media companies". This tax doesn't supersede the national 35% tax, which has sparked several reactions.
To the slashdotters of the world (Score:4, Interesting)
Argentinian here.
Please understand that policy in Argentina is usually just the result of the guys on top wanting more hookers or coke. Usually both. There is no justification to these taxes whatsoever other than "we want to steal more money for ourselves, but we already stole everything in sight... so we need you idiots to put more money in this account here so we can steal it."
Argentina is very much like your neighborhood friendly African nation, only with less ebola and civil war.
Re:To the slashdotters of the world (Score:5, Insightful)
Why do you think we would have assumed that Argentina is different from the rest of the world?
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Why do you think we would have assumed that Argentina is different from the rest of the world?
In Argentina, there are better hookers and coke.
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The guys on top should switch to Pepsi.
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The guys on top should switch to Pepsi.
No, Royal Crown!
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How about Crown Royal spiked with Royal Crown? In fact, forget about the cola.
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Argentinian here.
Do you actually have Netflix there?
Apparently, the Slashdot editors think that all the paid video streaming services in the World are owned and operated by Netflix.
Re:To the slashdotters of the world (Score:5, Insightful)
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I'm from Argentina and... Oh, god, please someone mod this BS message down!
Argentina has one of the highest Human Development Index values: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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I'm from Argentina and... Oh, god, please someone mod this BS message down!
Argentina has one of the highest Human Development Index values: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Yeah almost as high as Cuba and we all know how well off they are...
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Yes, Cuba has a high value of that... It's off topic.. Take whatever index you want. The parent post is still BS.
Re:To the slashdotters of the world (Score:5, Interesting)
Argentina in the 50's was also on track to become a first world developed nation -- with GDP per capita on par with that of France (and ahead of Germany!) =(
Considering the lack of bombed out factories, a missing generation of working age men, what happened exactly?
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Ahem. I'm forced to point out that neoliberal is not liberal... I'm afraid many people don't know that neoliberal is a technical term in economics. From Wikipedia: "support for great economic liberalization, privatization, free trade, open markets, deregulation, and reductions in government spending in order to enhance the role of the private sector in the economy."
Or basically "capitalism with the gloves off"
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My company does some business in Argentina, and that's the primary concern. I remember a meeting some years ago where the risk factor in Argentina was so high entirely because of politics. The best comparison would be like doing business in Venezuela. You never know if your assets are going to be randomly seized tomorrow and your company dissolved and turned into public assets.
Oh, Argentina (Score:5, Informative)
For those who don't know, Argentina is on the brink of economic collapse yet again. Their occupying government has ruined the currency with wishful thinking as if it didn't just happen a decade or so ago. They've been trying to negotiate away all the bad debt they've run up and not everybody is letting them off the hook this time. Like good bureaucrats they're probably looking to tax anything that moves.
3% tax on Netflix? pfft - last time they confiscated pensions and retirement accounts. Oh, sorry, they didn't confiscate them, they replaced the negotiable cash value of them with government-backed bonds. Which rapidly fell to zero value.
FWIW, the US DoL floated an RFC on 'protecting' retirement accounts by replacing them with bonds a few years ago. Nobody should be undiversified in their retirement savings jurisdictions.
IRS Planning the same (Score:1)
Note that the IRS has recently begun demanding much more information about IRA and 401K holdings, instead of just transactions outside the account. Seizing retirement accounts is being planned, and though it will be sold as taking from the "rich", a whole lot of middle class people are going to find themselves poor and at the mercy of politicians who threaten that the other party is going to take away their handouts.
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Eh, I think it's far more likely they'll de-Roth. Enjoy paying taxes on the after tax money you invested.
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With the construction of mass incarceration camps; the government is well ahead of you: https://www.youtube.com/playli... [youtube.com]
The war on drugs has already given authorities a great deal of experience with imprisoning massive numbers of people and militarizing local police authorities; no doubt when they make their move, they could also declare martial law simultaneously and reassign control of local law enforcement departments to the military..
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Corporations with deep pockets can write it off as the "cost of doing business", but an unstable individual who was depending on that money being available later to survive may not take it in stride.
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Who's saying it's a conspiracy with no evidence? They are actively trying to get bills passed to funnel withheld funds into government-controlled accounts. [thefiscaltimes.com] It's not a leap to think means-testing will be applied to "fairly" redistribute money when SS payments can't be made. It's also perfectly logical to see the sequestering of a percentage of my money into a 3% return as theft considering the substantial inflation we will hit.
Further, I'm talking about portfolio managers here, not flunkies.
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Well, I work at Morningstar, and I haven't heard anyone talk about the risk of government seizing retirement accounts, so GP is wrong.
(I'm going for the ultimate logical fallacy hat trick here: appeal to authority of the anecdotal strawman).
Re:IRS Planning the same (Score:4, Interesting)
U.S. Hikes Fee To Renounce Citizenship By 422% [forbes.com]
To leave America, you generally must prove 5 years of U.S. tax compliance. If you have a net worth greater than $2 million or average annual net income tax for the 5 previous years of $157,000 or more for 2014 (thatâ(TM)s tax, not income), you pay an exit tax. It is a capital gain tax as if you sold your property when you left. At least thereâ(TM)s an exemption of $680,000 for 2014. Long-term residents giving up a Green Card can be required to pay the tax too.
Now, the State Department interim rule just raised the fee for renunciation of U.S. citizenship to $2,350 from $450. Critics note that itâ(TM)s more than twenty times the average level in other high-income countries. The State Department says itâ(TM)s about demand on their services and all the extra workload they have to process people who are on their way out.
You are no longer born a free person, you are born into slavery. You have to buy your freedom and the price will keep going up. At $450 the price was already 4.5 times higher than in most other countries. Now it will be nearly 24 times more than for other countries.
You should be able to renounce your citizenship and leave for free, instead you are going to be prevented from leaving at all eventually, they'll jack up the price to the share of your national debt that you are born into and that is borrowed on your behalf by your government and only the wealthiest slaves will be able to get out. They will definitely prevent you from leaving eventually if you have any debts at all, including your student debt. The 2350USD change is starting on the 12th of September 2014 [wsj.com], you can still get out at a low low price of 450USD.
Those walls they are building on your borders, they are not there to keep others out, they are there to keep you in. IRS is part of that system.
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I recall something I once read about the old Soviet Union:
Anyone was free to leave at any time -- provided they paid the exit tax, which was around a million dollars (which in the 1950s/60s was still a LOT of money).
A few years ago someone tried to get a similar measure on California's ballot as a voter initiative. Their proposal would have imposed a 50% exit tax, as well as a one-time tax on real property over a certain value of 50% of that value. They got as far as the last step before being approved for
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You just go ahead and let us know whether you still feel like a smug bastard when it turns out he's right.
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Argentinian bonds? Ah, you mean toilet paper!
Re:Oh, Argentina (Score:5, Interesting)
For those who don't know, Argentina is on the brink of economic collapse yet again. Their occupying government has ruined the currency with wishful thinking as if it didn't just happen a decade or so ago. They've been trying to negotiate away all the bad debt they've run up and not everybody is letting them off the hook this time.
Actually, it is the old debt default from 2001 causing them to default now. In two rounds in 2005 and 2010 some 92% of their creditors agreed to cut 65% of their debt through new bonds - over a barrel, of course. The last 8% want all of it with full interest, but they're not getting anywhere in Argentinian courts. However, now they've gotten a ruling in a US court that Argentine can't pay interest on the new bonds without also paying them in full. Which Argentine can't, because part of the agreement with the other 92% is that nobody else will get a better deal so it would invalidate everything. They could make a backroom deal to make somebody else buy out the last 8% and swap for new bonds, but that's basically paying these guys off and setting a very, very bad precedent for later debt negotiations.
Instead they decided to play hardball back and just default, meaning those 8% get nothing - and neither do the 92% who agreed to new bonds. It's basically a giant game of chicken, who backs down first - Argentine because they want to get back on the international financial markets or will the last 8% figure 35% today is better than dreaming of getting their 100% + interest back forever. Argentine actually manages their finances quite well at the moment, being cut off from international credit means they've had to bring their budgets in balance and from the looks of it they can stay defaulted for quite some time.
Re:Oh, Argentina (Score:5, Interesting)
Close. Argentina did not play hardball. The US courts confiscated the money they had access to preventing the payments to the 92%. Argentina will not fund those payments anymore if the US courts re going to take the money before it gets to it's intended recipients.
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Re:Oh, Argentina (Score:4, Informative)
Argentina was forced by some creditors to sign agreements giving jurisdiction to US courts because the creditors did not trust Argentinian courts. Argentina bartered their sovereignty on the issue for better credit terms, now they are crying because they are being held to those terms by a court that is not corrupt and subject to their own control.
This whole deal shows the world that:
1. If you're selling bonds and plan on ripping everybody off, do not mess with US courts because they are not scared of your shithole government and they will confiscate your "sovereign" asse(t)s
2. If you're buying bonds from risky countries, do so under a stable jurisdiction like the US otherwise you can be completely screwed by some populist who thinks you're a criminal because you bought what they were voluntarily selling
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Argentina was forced by some creditors to sign agreements giving jurisdiction to US courts because the creditors did not trust Argentinian courts. Argentina bartered their sovereignty on the issue for better credit terms, now they are crying because they are being held to those terms by a court that is not corrupt and subject to their own control.
This whole deal shows the world that:
1. If you're selling bonds and plan on ripping everybody off, do not mess with US courts because they are not scared of your shithole government and they will confiscate your "sovereign" asse(t)s
2. If you're buying bonds from risky countries, do so under a stable jurisdiction like the US otherwise you can be completely screwed by some populist who thinks you're a criminal because you bought what they were voluntarily selling
Not corrupt? What do you call a legal system where, for example, banks who trade with terrorist organizations and drug cartels are allowed to pay (huge) penalties instead of people going to jail?
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Fine, make it "a court less corrupt than the Argentinean one".
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I think I'd look at hard goods, like real estate, before putting part of my retirement into other currencies to hedge against trouble with the US dollar.
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I don't see a USD collapse as that big a deal for the US. We'd figure something else out to use as currency and keep going. There could be a rough year or two while states figured out a tax strategy, but that's about it. (Everything important for day-to-day government operations is done at the state/local level, but most of the money that pays for it goes through the federal government first, which would be the issue).
It would really suck to be dependent on Social Security when the USD collapsed, but the
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It would really suck to be dependent on Social Security when the USD collapsed
It would really suck to be dependant on Social Security today due to high inflation which is hidden through manipulated CPI numbers. If the USD actually collapsed, and the government didn't manipulate the CPI numbers to hide it ---- the cost of living adjustment should reflect an increased payout due to collapse in value at the next adjustment period.
Investments stock and commodities are worth what the company or goods a
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I 100% expect Social Security to stop being useful about the time I get it, entirely thanks to the ongoing lying about CPI being escalated as inflation rises. I'd be surprised if we actually see hyperinflation, but 10% inflation with a 7% official inflation for 5-7 years would fix a great many of the governments financial woes (or delay them longer than the typical time a politician stays in office), and so I fully expect that. I'm saving not just for my own retirement, but to help carry my parents when t
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Never invest in a financial firm - liars and cheats the lot of them (I say this, but somehow I still trust Buffett - feel free to point and laugh if BRK collapses)
Considering I moved 80% of my investments into BRK shares back in Dec 2008 and still fully invested today; I'm afraid, I wouldn't be laughing about such circumstance..
People will still want pizza delivered, uniforms washed, a new refrigerator, HVAC repair and on and on. A rough couple of years? Definitely
A rough couple years might be the u
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I'm not so pessimistic. Not a big investor in bunker futures myself. It's like the debate over owning GLD (the ETF in theory backed by gold) vs owning physical gold. Yes, all the risks you highlight are real, but so is the risk of simply being robbed. I think the latter is a much greater risk, though a bit of hedging never hurts.
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I think I'd look at hard goods, like real estate, before putting part of my retirement into other currencies to hedge against trouble with the US dollar.
The trouble with real-estate is that taxes are high --- it is extremely illiquid - the entry price is high - ability to incrementally buy more in small chunks is extremely limited, plus you can incur other liabilities and maintenance cost, and real-estate also can be easily taken.
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Huh. "Illiquid" has been a word [reference.com] for more than 300 years. The more you know!
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The Dog ate my homework! (Score:2)
My favorite was when their National Bank burned to the ground by accident recently... supposedly.
My first thought was, um that isn't going to erase your debt you know, that is held by other banks...
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FWIW, the US DoL floated an RFC on 'protecting' retirement accounts by replacing them with bonds a few years ago. Nobody should be undiversified in their retirement savings jurisdictions.
Back in the very early 80s, the money in Social Security accounts was replaced with bonds. Look how well THAT is turning out. A cash positive program so deeply in the red that I will never see a penny of it. :(
thats to spendy (Score:5, Interesting)
a 35% tax on all offshore buys using a credit card
With that kind of tariff how long till all out of country purchases are made with bitcoin?
No llores por mi (Score:2, Insightful)
Brazil is becoming Argentina
Argentina is becoming Venezuela
Venezuela is becoming Cuba
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Re:No llores por mi (Score:4, Insightful)
Cuba? Oh yea, that place with all the old Chevys.
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No llores por mi (Score:1)
Yep, that is pretty much what is going on.
And all with comu--, I mean, socialists in all spheres of power.
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Yep, that is pretty much what is going on. And all with comu--, I mean, socialists in all spheres of power.
Call it by it's Argentinian name... Peronism. (You remember Eva Peron? What here husband started.. It's here again, world wide. )
Ok, Ok, Call it liberal progressive, it's the PC name of it today.
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Brazil is becoming Argentina
Argentina is becoming Venezuela
Venezuela is becoming Cuba
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The Terry Gilliam version?
Re:thats to spendy (Score:4, Interesting)
At that rate, I bet there's a market for Argentinians to mail me cash, which I'll use to establish them a Paypal account. Hell, if Paypal and I both take 10% they still come out on top.
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That's assuming the mail doesn't get opened and the cash doesn't get confiscated before it gets to you.
Re:thats to spendy (Score:5, Interesting)
At that rate, I bet there's a market for Argentinians to mail me cash, which I'll use to establish them a Paypal account. Hell, if Paypal and I both take 10% they still come out on top.
Well, that would be great, if they could send you cash. If you want to take Argentina's currency, you are a fool, and if you require dollars, they cannot legally get them to send to you. If they could, they'd all be out moving all their local currency into dollars already.
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If they could, they'd all be out moving all their local currency into dollars already.
That's what friends who travel internationally are for :D
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If they could, they'd all be out moving all their local currency into dollars already.
That's what friends who travel internationally are for :D
Don't tell customs any lies when they ask you if you have anything to declare then.. ;)
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Why would I be a fool to accept their cash? I wouldn't promise a conversion rate until I had it in hand and was at my bank, and if it's worth nothing all I lost was a few minutes of my time (and they're out all their money).
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With that kind of tariff how long till all out of country purchases are made with bitcoin?
No customs stamp, no delivery.
Bitcoins are a medium of exchange. They do not make your transactions invisible.
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No customs stamp, no delivery.
Not a problem for digital products delivered over the network.
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How many people are willing to follow copyright law but not import/export laws?
US-based companies accepting bitcoin payments and sending goods digitally that register only an e-mail address to setup an account --- aren't operating in Argentina and have zero compliance burden with regard to Argentenian import laws.
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a 35% tax on all offshore buys using a credit card
With that kind of tariff how long till all out of country purchases are made with bitcoin?
In which case such purchases would then be considered tax evasion.
Don't forget that you also need to fund the bitcoin account to start with, which is going to leave traces unless you can fund it out of country to start with, especially with governments going after cash for bitcoin exchangers.
here's some first hand info (Score:2)
35% is high, yes, but ... (Score:2)
The standard sales tax (VAT) in Greece is currently 23% for most things. (It varies, but that's the most common.) That's on top of the punishing property taxes, income taxes, taxes because you left your money sitting in a bank, taxes because it's Monday, etc. I jest, but only a little.
For those of you living in the US, can you imagine 23% states sales tax on essentially everything?
Argentina has instituted what amounts to a 35% import duty. Yes, that's a lot, but most things are purchased domestically.
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Countries that charge a higher sales tax/VAT often get many more services for their taxes, however. A least in Europe. For example, I'm fine with a 20% sales tax if it buys everyone healthcare. The US would be far better off under a much more sales tax oriented system, to begin with (as we have no national sales tax, period, only by state).
Of course, you don't tax necessities like that (the basics, food, clothing up to a certain amount, etc), but beyond that - if you can afford a $4000 TV, you can af
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Argentina has instituted what amounts to a 35% import duty. Yes, that's a lot, but most things are purchased domestically.
Argentina has an import duty over the VAT... So that's + 21% +35%. That's been like that since I can remember.
To make the math easier for you, customs set a unique 50% tax on imports to local market. And that's only over the goods.
You still have to pay if you need to send money out of the country via a wire transfer.
For some reason CCs were exempt from this, now another 35% tax was set, deducible from your income tax... But as anywhere else, almost all Argentinians fake their income declarations, so
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The standard sales tax (VAT) in Greece is currently 23% for most things. (It varies, but that's the most common.) That's on top of the punishing property taxes, income taxes, taxes because you left your money sitting in a bank, taxes because it's Monday, etc. I jest, but only a little.
The thing with Greece is not the high tax rates, it's the high rate of tax evasion. They'd probably need half the tax rates they currently have if every person and corporation paid taxes... but you'd need to get rid of the government graft too... erm... good luck with that.
So I'm not sure if Greece is a good comparison to Argentina, I know they have the govt corruption but what's the tax evasion like?
35% Tax is not a tax (Score:3, Informative)
35% Tax is a prepayment of income tax ("Impuesto a las ganancias") So, my credit card charges me that 35%, but then my employer discounts that from my income taxes. It is a stupid system, but not a new tax.
As for the 3%. All companies offering services here have to pay gross income taxes. Otherwise, every foreign company can come here, make profit and take it all to their home countries, leaving nothing for us. The netflix tax is tottaly fair.
Re:35% Tax is not a tax (Score:4, Interesting)
Thanks for explaining the 35% fee is actually prepayment of income tax.
This is probably useful for getting some income tax from people who buy stuff but somehow manage to declare no income.
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Otherwise, every foreign company can come here, make profit and take it all to their home countries, leaving nothing for us.
Leaving nothing, but, oh, the product or service that an Argentine wanted and paid for.
Tropico 5 (Score:2)
I was playing Tropico 5 [wikipedia.org] last night.
Coincidence? Inquiring minds want to know.
Sad (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm form Argentina and it saddens me that this post comments will fall among these categories:
Even the summary is wrong! That 35% is not a tax, just a pre-payment of the income tax that you can recover.
All hope is lost.
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I'm form Argentina and it saddens me that this post comments will fall among these categories:
Even the summary is wrong! That 35% is not a tax, just a pre-payment of the income tax that you can recover.
All hope is lost.
We are all indoctrinated in certain things, and those beliefs hang onto people like a religion. The notion that "my" country is the best country in the world, and all other countries are inferior in every way, is a hard one to shake. I saw it clearly on my trip to North Korea- although some people there are just playing along, a lot of people there really believe that their nation is the best on earth. It was like looking in a funhouse mirror at the people who chant "USA USA USA". People have to keep in
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Debt or tax (Score:2)
People cannot at the same time complain about debt and taxes. Debt is there because there is not enough taxes.
Of course the big question is who should be taxed. Someone reminds me what was the higher rate for income tax under Roosevelt?
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People cannot at the same time complain about debt and taxes. Debt is there because there is not enough taxes.
So lowering the spending is not an option?
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For one USD of public expense, there is more than one USD of GDP generated. It works the other way around, and if you lower public expenses, you lower the GDP. This means there is even less public income through income taxes or VAT.
With reduced expenses, but even more reduced income, the deficit increases, you have to increase debt.
This is exactly what is going on in EU with austerity policies right now.
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No, debt is there because there's too much spending.
You can reduce debt and taxes by reducing spending if you so desire.
Like most stupid taxes... (Score:2)
its not enforceable. A lot of these little ticky tacky taxes are very easy to bypass and it is effectively impossible to impose them if people are being sneaky about it.
For example, you create a paypal account or something, transfer some money into it, and you can probably convince netflix you're not from some region where they have to charge you that tax. The taxes are always collected by the retailer. So if you confuse them into thinking you're from somewhere else they'll not charge the tax.
I use methods
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I use methods like this to not pay California's state sales tax which is 10 percent.
On all large purchases, I buy from out of state and try to bounce the purchase through two retailers if the first one is going to charge me the state sales tax. I buy stuff this way all the time and almost never pay the state sales tax.
here someone is going to call me a bad person... whatever. Lower the tax and I won't be motivated to play these games.
So, if the CA sales tax were lower, you'd pay it? What rate would be appropriate? If you're honest, then you'd pay that rate through a voluntary contribution to the state of California every year. If you aren't doing that, then your argument about "I don't mind paying taxes, but only if they're at a rate I think appropriate" just falls apart.
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I just said I'd pay it if it were reasonable.
As to being honest, you're using the power of the state to compel me to give up my money. I see no obligation to be honest with you under those circumstances.
Why do I have to be honest with someone that is coercing me to give up my money?
Now you can say that there have to be taxes and they have to be coercive. Fine. But don't exploit that situation.
As to democracy and republics and votes... I didn't get a vote on any of this and you know damn well that if a tax i
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Wow, you're almost as good at evading a question as you are at raising your taxes.
How about this, then? California puts a measure on the ballot to set the state sales tax level. It's multiple choice. Your choices are below. Which one do you vote for? Remember, your complaint about taxes was that you don't get to vote on them, so now you're getting to vote on them. Choose.
A 0%
B 1%
C 2%
D 3%
E 4%
F 5%
G 6%
H 7%
I 8%
J 9%
K 10%
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That isn't how the political system works.
This is the option you get:
Vote for measure 15A
Yes
No
15A was advertised as the "Educated our children, save fluffy white bunnies, and have nice parks" bill.
So people like educating children, saving fluffy white bunnies, and having nice parks. So they vote yes.
Never mind that they just authorized a tax increase.
Never that there was plenty of money to educate children, save whatever, and have nice parks in the budget already.
Never mind that what they almost always do i
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"You think I'm the worst? Hardly. Warren Buffet is probably the biggest genius at not paying taxes. I could go into his methods if you like. But he basically pays about 5 percent taxes and breaks no laws."
Yup, he breaks no laws. Unlike you.
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First she"s dead, then she's alive, finally she's dead again. Who? Eva Parone in the musical Evita.
So goes Argentina.
History repeats, over and over.... Peronism didn't work in the 50's and 60's, it's successor won't work now and the results will be the same as before.
They won't be crying (Score:2)
This is a smart move -- they won't see nearly as much of other countries undercutting their markets -- preventing the loss of domestic jobs and the outflow of non-government funds that US policies, for instance, have resulted in.
Kind of funny to see people complaining about them trying to protect their economy.
Guess I need to run wham-a-lart and buy some more inexpensive Japanese, Chinese and Korean stuff now. See you guys later.
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Yeah because protectionism is well known to be a great way to grow your economy.
I'll give you a hint- if you stop your people buying from everyone else, they stop their people buying from you. Then who the fuck do you expect to sell anything to to grow your economy? Unless you can become entirely self-sustaining at that point you're screwed, exactly as Argentina currently is.
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