Squid Game Subtitles 'Change Meaning' of Netflix Show (bbc.com) 86
According to fluent Korean speaker Youngmi Mayer, Squid Game features "botched" subtitles that have changed the show's meaning for English-speaking viewers.
For those unaware of Squid Game, it's a Korean-language drama about an alternative world where people in debt compete in deadly games. The plot sees a group of people tempted into a survival game where they have the chance to walk away with 45.6 billion Korean won ($38 million) if they win a series of six games. According to a BBC article, it's currently on track to become Netflix's biggest original series. From the report: "The dialogue was so well written and zero of it was preserved [in the subtitles]," Youngmi said in a Twitter post. In a TikTok video that's had almost nine million views, Youngmi gave several examples of mistranslation. In one scene a character tries to convince people to play the game with her, and the closed-caption subtitles read: "I'm not a genius, but I still got it worked out." But what the character actually says, Youngmi explains, is: "I am very smart, I just never got a chance to study." That translation puts more emphasis on the wealth disparity in society -- which is also a theme in the Oscar-winning 2019 Korean film, Parasite. "Almost everything she says is being botched translation-wise... the writers, all they want you to know about her is that," Youngmi said. "[It] seems so small, but it's the entire character's purpose of being in the show." Youngmi later clarifies that her initial comments were about the automatically generated closed-caption subtitles rather than the English language subtitles, which are "substantially better." But she added: "The misses in the metaphors -- and what the writers were trying to actually say -- are still pretty present."
For those unaware of Squid Game, it's a Korean-language drama about an alternative world where people in debt compete in deadly games. The plot sees a group of people tempted into a survival game where they have the chance to walk away with 45.6 billion Korean won ($38 million) if they win a series of six games. According to a BBC article, it's currently on track to become Netflix's biggest original series. From the report: "The dialogue was so well written and zero of it was preserved [in the subtitles]," Youngmi said in a Twitter post. In a TikTok video that's had almost nine million views, Youngmi gave several examples of mistranslation. In one scene a character tries to convince people to play the game with her, and the closed-caption subtitles read: "I'm not a genius, but I still got it worked out." But what the character actually says, Youngmi explains, is: "I am very smart, I just never got a chance to study." That translation puts more emphasis on the wealth disparity in society -- which is also a theme in the Oscar-winning 2019 Korean film, Parasite. "Almost everything she says is being botched translation-wise... the writers, all they want you to know about her is that," Youngmi said. "[It] seems so small, but it's the entire character's purpose of being in the show." Youngmi later clarifies that her initial comments were about the automatically generated closed-caption subtitles rather than the English language subtitles, which are "substantially better." But she added: "The misses in the metaphors -- and what the writers were trying to actually say -- are still pretty present."
Subtlety? (Score:2)
Most viewers probably aren't watching it for subtle social commentary.
Re:Subtlety? (Score:4, Informative)
I read the english subtitles, but the message got through loud and clear. It's not subtle social commentary, if anything it was so over the top I wondered if the translation was doing something to exaggerate it, but there were plenty of visual clues to contradict that. The dialogue may not have hammered home the comprehensive list of situational injustices, but the overall message is impossible to miss.
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It's a story about ultra-wealthy people watching and betting on games where financially desperate people d
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Most viewers probably aren't watching it for subtle social commentary.
You're certainly correct, but the social commentary is anything but subtle.
That translation puts more emphasis on the wealth disparity in society...
After "Red light, Green light", players choosing to continue would quite likely find themselves on the skinny side of the wealth disparity paradigm.
Re:Subtlety? (Score:4, Interesting)
Most viewers probably aren't watching it for subtle social commentary.
Is this true? I suspect you're right, but I watch these foreign (to the states) shows specifically for that commentary and viewpoint. And I've been assuming I'm getting some of that cultural visibility we so desperately lack here in the states. But this summary has me questioning all that. :(
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A lot of posts I've seen on social media reference other dystopias and the enjoyment of them. That's not... strictly speaking... proof it's not being watched for the social commentary, but it is suggestive. There are posts about how unrealistic the deaths are, which again is suggestive that it's not being watched for the commentary, but again suggestion is not proof.
Nonetheless, I lean towards the theory put forward in Year Of The Sex Olympics, which is that a substantial segment of the population does inde
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Just look at how long America's funnest home videos has been around, its basically watching real people get hurt, I personally can't stand it but it is clearly quite popular. That is also why I haven't watched the squid game, it seemed way to violent for me. I agree it would be really interesting to find out what proportion of people are like this and what proportion it makes them feel really uncomfortable.
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I am bilingual, and it doesn't surprise me in the slightest, when I watch things like the news, and manage to hear the words over the translation, quite often the translation is not how I would interpret the original statement. I can only assume (I don't watch Russian movies) that movies are even worse.
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If people don't like subtlety then there's always American cinema to watch instead.
Botched subtitles can be fun! (Score:5, Insightful)
TL;DR: Funny Star Wars subtitle translation. And the Squid Game is great regardless, just let the rest of us enjoy the show, and stop poking around with pincers to find marginal stuff to whine about.
Norwegian here, we get foreign language movies with subtitles (and thank [deity] for that, rather than the dubbing they do in Germany, France and lots of other countries). Which can lead to some interesting moments, especially when you understand the spoken language.
Here is a classic, from one of the Star Wars movies: "Your father's light sabre". Using "light" in the sense of the opposite of heavy, rather as the opposite of dark. Because those are different words in Norwegian.
On a slightly more serious note: translation and subtitling is hard. There are things you can say precisely in one language, which cannot be accurately represented in another. For instance, the English language has a around 70% more words than Norwegian, with words capturing nuances we don't have. Also, if there is too much dialogue per time unit, subtitles need to be shortened and simplified.
And also ... can't we be allowed to just enjoy the show without having to go digging for problems. I watched the first episode - with subtitles obviously (Norwegian, don't know how they compare to the English ones), and it was great fun. Whether there was a layer of dialogue that was lost to me ... it was still great fun. There are probably Korean cultural aspects which means there are lots of jokes, meanings and settings that I don't get - which would potentially have been nice, but I don't have the time to spend 5 years in South Korea to become an "insider", and surprise surprise - the episode was still great fun without being an insider to Korean culture.
Re:Botched subtitles can be fun! (Score:5, Funny)
I saw Villeneuve's Dune the other week in a Spanish cinema with subtitles. (Don't worry: this isn't a spoiler). The Duke comments that they ruled Caladan with sea power and air power, but on Arrakis it's desert power that matters. The subtitlers clearly thought he was talking about electricity generation rather than military force.
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Yes, the third issue would be the people would be the translators and how they botch the meaning. But this does not change the fact that botched subtitles can be fun! Your example makes for a good story, something you can laugh about with friends :-)
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It's easier to to translate between related European languages than it is to translate between say Korean and English, mistakes aside.
You see that a lot with Japanese stuff like anime. Characters phrase things awkwardly or say things that no native English speaker would. My enjoyment increased a lot when I started to be able to understand the original spoken dialogue.
Having said that there is definitely a big difference in quality of translations and subtitles. Fan subs tend to be a lot better than commerci
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A long time ago we watched Monty Python and the Holy Grail on laser disc that a friend had. There were extras that had the Japanese translation, but also wtih English subtitles of the Japanese translations. So when the Arthur was being insulted by the French knights, one of the insults was "you are very rude!"
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They're gaining on us! Quick, shovel in more blancmange!
Re:Botched subtitles can be fun! (Score:5, Funny)
Speaking of Star Wars, that's the origin of the Do Not Want meme.
There is no word for "no" in Chinese, you have to be a bit more specific. "I don't want to do it" or "I don't want it", that kind of thing.
There was a Chinese bootleg of Revenge of the Sith, where near the end the newly created Vader does his infamous "no!" line. In Chinese it was translated to "do not want [my wife and children to be dead]". For some reason to provide English subtitles on the bootleg they machine translated the Chinese, rather than bootlegging the official English subtitles. The machine translated "no" as "do not want", someone screenshotted it, and a meme was born.
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I always thought 'moah' () could be used. But that is Cantonese. I had a bunch of Cantonese friends who would use that for no, not any, don't have, etc. depending on context.
What's Up, Tiger Lily? (Score:2)
The subtitles' "botching" doesn't even have to be accidental.
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On a slightly more serious note: translation and subtitling is hard. There are things you can say precisely in one language, which cannot be accurately represented in another.
What is even more difficult is things which are imprecise in one language. Your lite-sabre is one example, but equally language used intentionally to have an incorrect meaning (double entendres), or in some case attempting to convey what was an intentionally gibberish statement which could have some form of meaning extracted from it.
This was a seriously problem around the world the past 4 years. You think Trump's incoherent psychobabble was hard? Try translating #covfefe into Norwegian, or imagine being a p
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Dystopian drama is not, as a rule, there to be fun and enjoyable. If it is, it has failed.
Shaolin Soccer (Score:3)
There is a scene in it where one of the main characters, the washed up soccer star, is being followed by the would-be shaolin soccer player. The young kung fu soccer guy keeps telling him, you are my hero, I remember you, please teach me, and other fan worshipping as he chases the older guy. And the English subtitles are saying something like, "please leave me alone, I feel shame, I am not worthy of teaching anyone, please stop!" I used to understand a bunch of Cantonese from working with people from Hong K
Subtitling is hard (Score:2)
American who loves culture and loves foreign films here.
Translation and subtitling is hard.
Absolutely! In college, I had an amazing experience in Greece. We were desperate for a dose of American culture, so our class pooled our money, bought a VHS player, and rented some VHS tapes from a local rental store. One was Tommy Boy. Recall in the opening scene [youtube.com] how Tommy is running across campus to get to his exam, when he suddenly slows down, struts his stuff by two young female college students, and says "Hi
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Even the official english subtitles for shows originally made in english can sometimes not match the spoken dialog.
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"Light" actually works both ways in the context I think. As in the light saber is more suited to light infanty than heavy infantry.
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I'll never understand how "game played by kids on a house-symbol drawn in dirt" translates to "squid game".
You gets for what you pays (Score:3)
Translating for entertainment is hard. If they actually paid for high quality translation and then compared the result to the original script they would have caught whatever issues they are going on about. That they did not bother to check is on them. Then winging about automatic translation, which should not even be within a light year of a quality showing, is not even worth wasting CPU on. That it still is fabulously successful (I haven't seen it though) means that the current translation might be more in line with the audience, than the original script was. It seems more likely that whoever bought the rights for English decided to make changes to the script.
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. It seems more likely that whoever bought the rights for English decided to make changes to the script.
Netflix owns this show. Both the original Korean (which decimated SK's broadband days ago) and around the world. The original script obviously worked. I watch a lot of Korean-language TV with English subtitles and usually it's not that bad (I don't speak Korean, but it's usually obvious when the subtitling doesn't match the original language).
I'm sort of holding out in case they release updated subtitles.
Subtitles change meaning? Really?! *bwaahahaha* (Score:3)
As a native non-English speaker who watched English movies with other-language subtitles for most of my adolescent life, and who eventually learned English well enough to also understand the original meaning, I have to say... yep. This one definitely discovered the hole in the macaroni. (Yep, this is a my-native-language idiom for "finally git a date with Captain Obvious").
Usually, you have about 2-3 such WTFs per movie, which is on average one every half hour or so. On every. Given. Movie.
And don't get me started on doubling (i.e. speaking native language dialogue as a replacement for original actors' voices). If you want to really see what kind of damage that does, watch any of the original Bud Spencer movies in original Italian, and then in their German (with or without English subtitles) doubling version. There are westerns where they essentially changed the whole character of the movie, e.g. from easy-going wild-west action to slapstick comedy.
So, I'd say: English native speakers, welcome to the world of entertainment translations. This is how they butcher all the movies you've made, too, when they show them to us. *shrug*
Re: Subtitles change meaning? Really?! *bwaahahaha (Score:2)
BTW, this is why DVD region-coding, aswell as IP geofencing of steaming services (Netflix, Amazon Prime etc), is such a major pain in the ass.
For various reasons, a significant part of the movies you can watch on a German DVD, of, say, an Amazon Prime account, lack the original English soundtrack. Because... reasons. So it may happen to you that you purchase an American movie from an American producer through an American streaming service only to be forced to watch it in Italian only. Or so.
Yay.
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But there are idioms, slang, and cultural references that don't translate well. For instance: when C [youtube.com]
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The Wizard of Oz movie was 60+ years old and known worldwide (and dubbed in German). The book is also well-known. If translators thought that they needn't reference that movie, it seems a little silly. That's more than a little bit of story (and metaphor) lost.
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The simple fact is that this happens all the time even within the same language. If you watch a show with English dialogue with English subtitles on, you're going to run into a number of instances of the subtitle not matching what was spoken. Usually it seems like it happens for pacing reasons, so that they don't throw up too much writing too fast. Sometimes though, you get interesting situations where the subtitles are obviously following a variant version of the script so that there are completely differe
Re: Subtitles change meaning? Really?! *bwaahahaha (Score:2)
Hehe, I've come across some of that, too :-)
A funny thing to see when a US movie is released in Germany they sometimes change the title - to another English title. Because they think English just sounds cooler, I guess?!... But somehow the original English title is not good enough?!
Cringy stuff.
Coming up next (Score:2)
An otaku complains about the dubbed English dialog used on their favorite anime.
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First world problems (Score:1)
Proceeds showing an example of a minor difference, that applies only to the automatically-generated subtitles and not to the proper ones.
I suspect we have a case of Twitter outrage here.
Generally speaking, subtitles are seldom perfect. Even those in the same language as the movie are often slightly simplified in comparison to what is actually said on screen, because filling up the screen with a wall of text and expecting the viewer to read it all within a c
Where no man has gone before (Score:2)
A story about nothing (Score:4, Insightful)
subtitles (Score:2)
*Fansubs have entered the chat*
I wonder how many anime fan-sub groups is interested in subbing k-drama... :D
Nothing to see here, please disperse (Score:5, Insightful)
Youngmi later clarifies that her initial comments were about the automatically generated closed-caption subtitles rather than the English language subtitles, which are "substantially better." But she added: "The misses in the metaphors -- and what the writers were trying to actually say -- are still pretty present."
Please Editors: Instead of adding this clarification at the end of the summary, consider skipping the article altogether. Of course machine-generated subtitles will have errors, and of course translations will lose part of the original meaning, as already mentioned in previous comments.
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But think about the click bait and the rage commenting! How can we survive without it?
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The thing is, it's not just subtitles or the auto generated closed captions that have some slight mistranslations. Sometimes they are vastly different. And even more mystifying is that the English language audio track is often vastly different, and doesn't agree with either of the text translations. There were a bunch of scenes that were really bad, but for some reason one that really stuck out to me (despite being relatively unimportant) was one where the person takes a bite of rice and makes a disgusted f
No translation ever does (Score:3)
Anyway as to why Squid Game might have emerged with less than perfect translation... because it's some fucking Korean TV show on Netflix. They probably tossed it out to some studio that specializes in translating content on an hourly rate and they got what they paid for - competent translation rather than a scholarly review of every nuance and gesture. They probably didn't expect full bore nerd outrage over minor deviations in the script although they might go back and do something about it after the fact. I know that in the show Barbarians (translated from Latin & German) they altered some of the subs after some Latin speakers pointed out some errors in the translation.
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They probably didn't expect full bore nerd outrage over minor deviations in the script...
I understand some social media sites were down recently for a few hours, so perhaps the outrage is simply misplaced posturing that would normally be vented upon some worthy Instaface user.
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If you want to go all the way, also have a native speaker of the source material as a consultant so they can point out the more subtle double meanings and hidden slights that may be present in the source. This is especially true for languages like Japanese where using a word that has essentially the same meaning can have a vastly different subtextual meaning depending on context.
Bad summary (Score:2)
The summary sets up an issue and then takes it back at the end:
Youngmi later clarifies that her initial comments were about the automatically generated closed-caption subtitles rather than the English language subtitles, which are "substantially better."
From what I read in the Twitter thread, it seems that most people are indeed talking about the regular English subtitles not being good. Which, in my experience, is common with subs of asian shows unfortunately.
The "English CC" are on an other level of badness because they translate the English dub.
There may actually be reasons (Score:2)
First, the obvious one: The translator is neither familiar with relevant idioms nor fluent enough in the foreign language to create a sensible translation that preserves the meaning. Sad as it is, it may be a reason. But it's by far not the most common reason.
Second, and less obvious but very common, is timing and lip sync constraint. Ok, that's less the case with subtitles, but it is very often the problem with dubs where the line they speak has to fit the lip movement. That's harder than it may seem, espe
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First, the obvious one: The translator is neither familiar with relevant idioms nor fluent enough in the foreign language to create a sensible translation that preserves the meaning. Sad as it is, it may be a reason. But it's by far not the most common reason.
Part of the challenge is you need a translator that is familiar with both cultures and idioms to be able to translate the meaning, not the words. I've watched subtitled English movies and what the subtitle says and what the English dialogue meant were two opposite things. It's obvious whoever wrote the subtitles understood the English and translated it literally but missed the meaning. A good translation would have used different words but have been more accurate. Jokes are especially hard because the a
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In German it's easy, because there is the word "ernst" which means serious and also the first name "Ernst". The joke works in pretty much the same way, almost word for word. And that's also what they did.
"Meinen Sie das ernst?" (Are you serious?)
"Ja, das meine ich. Und nennen Sie mich nicht Ernst" (Yes I am, and don't call me Ernst)
But yes, knowing both languages well is a crucial requirement to get word plays and double entendres. If you have someone create subtitles using Google Translate you get "Backstr
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I wouldn't say it works the same in your example. The person heard ernst and understood it to mean serious. Then they also decided it meant the name Ernst. Which doesn't really make much sense - because they clearly understood the word correctly. It makes it sound like that person is making their own joke rather than mishearing. In the original English, no individual words are taken to mean two different things by the same person - which makes way more sense.
I wouldn't say it's not funny at all, but it
freelance work (Score:5, Informative)
I am a published translator (German, Dutch, and Latin to English), but I do scholarly works. I can take my time, use footnotes explaining nuances, and generally have fun rendering the ideas given in one language to another.
I have a good friend who does TV and movies, Russian and French to English. For her, it's all freelance work. She's paid for how much and how quickly she turns out subs, and these are not checked that carefully.
An easy way to see this, even without native-level knowledge, is to note how often numbers and proper names are screwed up in the subs.
tldr: subbers have little incentive to produce literary-quality subs
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I am a published translator (German, Dutch, and Latin to English), but I do scholarly works. I can take my time, use footnotes explaining nuances, and generally have fun rendering the ideas given in one language to another.
I have a good friend who does TV and movies, Russian and French to English. For her, it's all freelance work. She's paid for how much and how quickly she turns out subs, and these are not checked that carefully.
An easy way to see this, even without native-level knowledge, is to note how often numbers and proper names are screwed up in the subs.
tldr: subbers have little incentive to produce literary-quality subs
Given that you seem to have have first hand experience, isn't the process of translating dialog from one language to another inherently flawed because of the constraint that the translated dialogue has to fit into the time constraints of the character saying it? I'm watching some Columbian telenovelas at the moment and even with my level of Spanish I'm seeing issues with the subtitles because of things like that.
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Given that you seem to have have first hand experience, isn't the process of translating dialog from one language to another inherently flawed because of the constraint that the translated dialogue has to fit into the time constraints of the character saying it? I'm watching some Columbian telenovelas at the moment and even with my level of Spanish I'm seeing issues with the subtitles because of things like that.
That does not make it inherently flawed; it is only a constraint. But I agree it is an important one.
you think that's bad... (Score:2)
I have tinnitus and so I watch everything with subtitles on, even stuff in my native English. There I see frequent variations that produce very different shades of meaning.
Sub-titles v. Dubbing (Score:2)
I watched the trailer and there was a mismatch between the subtitles and the dubbing. I wonder if the english language dubbing is better.
Er, ok (Score:1)
Never seen this show, but I've had hearing impairment since my 20s, so I'm pretty familiar with subtitles in general. Since I'm only impaired, I can usually still hear the dialog, but keep subtitles on because I don't want to miss anything. So I'm well positioned to review the quality.
Most human-written subtitle are terrible. Or at best, mediocre. So I doubt it's anything sinister about this show.
It's often clear that whoever did the subtitles has no familiarity with the genre, the characters, the setting
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I lived for a year in a shared house where my timetable was a few hours offset from my housemates', so I'd often watch a film at 01:00 with the TV muted and subtitles on in order not to disturb them. It was an interesting exercise to use the subtitles as priming and try to lip-read the actors to see what they were really saying.
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I lived for a year in a shared house where my timetable was a few hours offset from my housemates', so I'd often watch a film at 01:00 with the TV muted and subtitles on in order not to disturb them. It was an interesting exercise to use the subtitles as priming and try to lip-read the actors to see what they were really saying.
I'll bet it was!
Don't even get me started about when the subtitles are WAY out of sync with the speech ... or are even for the wrong episode (yes, that has happened, more than once).
A true domain expert is required (Score:1)
I work for a company that provides sign language to/from spoken language interpreters for phone calls for the deaf in the US and other countries.
Someone recently asked me if there's a fear the interpreters will be replaced by automated systems. No!
In practice, even our very top interpreters have difficulty capturing the fine details. Even in the example of English to/from American Sign Language, the vocabularies don't line up at all. When one of the languages is from another country, it gets much harder.
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Thare are many reasons more than money to not be able to study. Hense EMPHASIS. but you know that already but twanted to moan didn't you?
All Your Base Are Belong To Us (Score:2)
Wait, what? (Score:2)
"Youngmi later clarifies that her initial comments were about the automatically generated closed-caption subtitles"
So she wasn't actually watching the subtitles, but some on-the-fly translation?
How is this news?
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Because not everyone will be watching the 'right' ones. If you watch her videos, you'll see that the CC subtitles are actually really good idiomatic English; they don't look like garbled captions that were obviously generated by a computer. They looked like REAL subtitles that might actually be correct, and if you don't know enough to switch to a more hand-curated set, you'll get a poor experience. Indeed, I bet that's what happened to her.
And if you've got professionally translated subtitles, why even let
This is common (Score:1)
Next thing ... (Score:2)
1970s BBC version of Monkey (Score:2)
I am absolutely certain they made the dialogue up as they went along. The odds of it being remotely close to Japan's NBC dialogue is next to zero. However, I'm also certain they understood the spirit of the show pretty well.
Since this subtitle argument is over inverted meanings, it sounds like it's a very different situation.
Netflix has no excuse (Score:2)
Their foreign shows and movies have horrible subtitles.
The worst is where the dubbing doesn't match the subtitles.
This is the reason my wife, friends and I generally skip every foreign language offering.
There are exceptions, ofc.
Netflix contributes the perception that foreign offerings are inferior to hollywood and shame on them.
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I mentioned this.
The reasons are the same.
You say it is their's becuase they say netflix on them.
Many are bought after the fact and many just include funding and doing the dub.
There are reasons to change things for a dub so they look/time betetr ratehr than be exact. of course they could pony up to include subtitles for rthe dub as well.
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I watch a lot of Korean-language TV and occasionally other languages. Casting is so much better in the original, that I never listen to dubs, but have to have subtitles. Easier to handle than English subtitles on an English dub and better acting too. At least with the original audio, you can gather the meaning very well even if you don't understand the language and have bad subtitles.
Aha! (Score:2)
There is always someone who has discovered America again. I watch shows in a number of languages, some of which I actually understand. In the ones where I'm sufficiently fluent to know what has been said, the subtitles are invariably garbage, usually losing all the connotations of the dialog, with the most drab simplistic translation. Translating is not easy, and even harder under time pressure.
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For the "Netflix Originals" where they'll be streaming in perpetuity and own the rights globally, I've never understood why they don't try harder. Nevermind America - I'm in the minority who will even watch non-English content. Or even, non-American accent content.
For all the money that's spent on production, even quality translation would be relatively cheap.
For fun, I've listened to a few Disney animation dubs. They even cast very similar sounding voice actors. I don't know how well it's translated, t
Most subs are bad these days. (Score:2)
Pay peanuts get monkeys and all that.
Worse is some of the dubbed stuff on netflix.
Being lazy I'll often choose dubbed (attention span and watching the screen all the time and all that). But i also prefer to have subs on becuase age/hearing etc.
Of course the subtitles are often created first and the dub later and wildly differ.
This however is not just a netflix problem, it's a general problem.
"Alternative world"? (Score:1)
Wrong. The story doesn't take place in an "alternative world" any more that any other drama does. The story takes place in modern day South Korea. Overall a good show. I won't spoil the ending for those that haven't finished it, but, a subplot or two leaves a bit to be desired.
News Flash (Score:1)
Translating is Hard; this is just virtue signaling (Score:2)
Then you have some parti