Marvel Movies No Longer Guaranteed Blockbusters 285
schnell writes: A story (paywalled) analyzes the more uncertain fortunes of Marvel's most recent movies compared to their predecessors. From the article: "Since Disney acquired Marvel in 2009, the studio has produced 25 superhero films that have grossed a total $25 billion worldwide, making it one of the highest-earning film studios in Hollywood history. Among them are Marvel's 2019 Avengers: Endgame, the highest-grossing movie of all time with $2.8 billion at the global box office; Avengers: Infinity War, which grossed $2 billion, and eight more that topped $1 billion each. But since the beginning of 2021, the average global box-office gross of the six films produced by Marvel has fallen to $773.6 million — roughly half the $1.5 billion average of the previous six films ... Critical reception of the films has suffered as well. According to Rotten Tomatoes, a website that tracks movie reviews, the last six Marvel titles averaged a 75% approval rating among critics, compared with 88.5% for the prior six."
Some films starring less established characters drove a part of the drop-off such as The Eternals ($402M total box office gross), Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings ($420.7 million) and Black Widow ($373.2 million). But tentpole characters haven't always been a guarantee of success -- while Spider-Man: No Way Home grossed $1.9B globally and Captain Marvel took in $1.1B, Thor: Love and Thunder suffered a surprising 68% box office drop-off from week one to two and is trending towards a disappointing performance.
Are Marvel's more recent films just victims of unrealistic expectations or pandemic-era changes in movie viewership? Have audience tastes changed, or has Marvel lost the plot when it comes to its newer movies?
Some films starring less established characters drove a part of the drop-off such as The Eternals ($402M total box office gross), Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings ($420.7 million) and Black Widow ($373.2 million). But tentpole characters haven't always been a guarantee of success -- while Spider-Man: No Way Home grossed $1.9B globally and Captain Marvel took in $1.1B, Thor: Love and Thunder suffered a surprising 68% box office drop-off from week one to two and is trending towards a disappointing performance.
Are Marvel's more recent films just victims of unrealistic expectations or pandemic-era changes in movie viewership? Have audience tastes changed, or has Marvel lost the plot when it comes to its newer movies?
Weak movies (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Weak movies (Score:5, Insightful)
I would like to point out, that most of the movies listed in the post aren't the greatest MCU movies.
That's because Marvel has eaten all their seed corn, story wise, and is now reaching to the bottom of the barrel for material.
Most of the success of the early movies was driven by the interest of Generation X, who grew up with the comics. These movies were successful because they applied quality film making to beloved characters, and generally stayed true to the comic book backgrounds. The audience judged that Marvel got it right, and rewarded them with large ticket sales.
But Marvel quickly burned through their most popular comics storylines in the sequels. Civil War, the Infinity Saga, etc. Now the early stars that drove the pics... Downy and Chris Evans in particular... are gone, and Marvel is left with B-list characters and storylines. Further, they're changing some characters and backgrounds to the point that long-time fans are going "Nope". I'm looking at you, Thor sequels.
While Marvel has had some success building B level characters into greater popularity... Black Panther, Guardians of the Galaxy, Loki, and Moon Knight come to mind... They're going to have a much harder time building a Shang Chi or Eternals dynasty. Compounding things further is the political and social stuff they're throwing in attempting to appeal to Gens Y and Z, which alienates Gen X, who drove the initial financial success of the franchises.
Marvel isn't done by any means, but they won't be reaching the heights of the past decade anymore. Basically it's down to shrewd decline management for Disney leadership at this point.
Re: (Score:2)
"Beloved"? I dunno, maybe I'm older, or more of a D.C. guy who never bought many comics... Hulk and Spiderman felt to me like the only ones that really got big awareness outside of the comic books. And both of those were solo guys, the only notable superhero in their universe (the Avengers came after my time, and it always confused me with the British show).
The movies at a certain point became obviously "serials". No clear beginning, and no clear ending. Like a bad middle child in Star Wars.
Re:Weak movies (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd be willing to bet by this point...Y & Z would be about ready for some simple entertainment without a message being pushed too.
And hey, while we're at it, let's quit being afraid of pissing off China, eh?
Re:Weak movies (Score:5, Interesting)
I'd be willing to bet by this point...Y & Z would be about ready for some simple entertainment without a message being pushed too.
And hey, while we're at it, let's quit being afraid of pissing off China, eh?
Amen. And part of it is in the delivery. Comics have always had messaging - if you look at the X-Men a big part of it is showing the persecution of mutants by humanity. The thing is though that message is disguised via allegory. There is no real segment of the populace being told essentially that "YOU ARE THE PROBLEM!!!!" - it's a simple message that one - ANYONE - should not mistreat others because they're different. The ones doing the mistreating nor the ones receiving it have direct real world counterparts.
Stop trying to guilt trip your audience and show us stories that are fun to watch.
Re: (Score:2)
I'd be willing to bet by this point...Y & Z would be about ready for some simple entertainment without a message being pushed too.
And hey, while we're at it, let's quit being afraid of pissing off China, eh?
the last one always bugs me with how blatant the pandering ends up being when they try to appeal to the CCP censors.
Re: (Score:2)
While Marvel has had some success building B level characters into greater popularity... Black Panther, Guardians of the Galaxy, Loki, and Moon Knight come to mind... They're going to have a much harder time building a Shang Chi or Eternals dynasty.
I'm not sure I understand why those two movies will be especially hard relative to the success stories you cite above. Particularly with Shang Chi as all that is is Marvel's take on the incredibly well established genre of martial arts flicks.
Re: (Score:2)
That said, what's wrong with doing smaller / sub-genre movies too? Why does the average matter if the smaller films are still profitable? After all there's only so many times you can re-do "Peter Parker gets bit by a spider and discovers he has special powers"
Re: (Score:3)
The point is that the 'wokeness' takes precedence over the other aspects of the movie and makes them worse. It's by far not the only shitty aspect movie makers have focused on instead of on telling a good fucking story, but it is the newest and has no redeeming qualities (in fact the opposite) for those who don't care for it.
Everybody knows that Michael Bay explosion-type movies suck ass, story-wise. If I see that in a movie trailer I expect to see an absolutely pedestrian story. I do expect some cool explo
Re:"woke"-ness is a red herring. Only story matter (Score:4, Informative)
It underperformed because the story just wasn't great
Just so we're clear, captain marvel didn't "underperform", it blew the doors off the cinema, raking in 1.1 billion dollars and putting it in, if memory serves me right, the top 20 highest grossing films of all times. And thats despite a massive review bombing campaign where audience review sites where flooded with negative reviews before the film was actually released (The Cinescore itself was an "A" rating, Cinescore being pretty much the only scientific scoring system in the industry involving large scale random sampling of audiences walking out of cinemas, 80% of people who've seen the movie give it an "A").
Absolutely nothing underperformed with that film.
Re:Weak movies (Score:4, Informative)
Won't matter even if they're good. There are just too many of them, too many characters and plots across them which gets confusing, movies are too long, and basically it's Marvel overload. Enough all ready. Every story needs to end (except the one with the song) and it's best to end on a high note. Time for Hollywood to start doing new stuff again.
Re:Weak movies (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm fairly sure the word was woke. That's where a lot of the criticisms of popular culture around here have been going.
Re: Weak movies (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: Weak movies (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Honestly should stick with it, For All Mankind is good scifi in my opinion and after the first season the character is just part of the cast, shes not the main character but more of a "play the part of the viewer so we can do exposition" type character.
Re: Weak movies (Score:2, Insightful)
They went full gaytard with the latest season. I stopped watching.
Re: (Score:2)
Agreed. I'm hoping that saloomy just hated that part and didn't turn off watching the show.
I am really excited to see how her and Margo play out (being vague in case saloomy did turn off the show but that we convinced him to come back.)
This is probably my favorite scifi show that is currently on.
I also love the way they tackle these social issues from a perspective approiate for the timeframe instead of judging everyone based on 2022 googles. Making Deke so damn likable despite what he told Ellen was really
Re: (Score:3)
Regarding For All Mankind:
That character is paying off in Season 3 but honestly, skipping the entire season 1 plot with her would have been a relief and wouldn't have impacted her storyline at all.
I guess the only good thing is that, since they showed it to us, they don't feel the need to beat us over the head with her past every episode.
That said, I love this show! Some of the subplots are a bit dull for me perosnally but, overall, I love close to 90% of it and consider that a success for my enjoyment.
Rega
Re: (Score:2)
I remember starting to watch For All Mankind which is a reimagining of one of Americas greatest achievements, and they decided to frame it from the perspective of an illegal Mexican immigrant family. Whatever your views are, why include this? I rolled my eyes and turned it off, not because my views are against immigrants (they are not, my family immigrated on my moms side), but because the story wasnt what I was looking for and I did not want to be lectured by Apple.
Why include this? Why not include this? There are all sorts of people with their stories in the show. The head of the program is a literal nazi (IRL and in the show). An astronaut's kid dies in an accident and his friend fucks that kid's mom and then goes into space with the dad. The head of NASA hands over to rocket blueprints to the Soviets.
But including a slightly idealized example of the American dream is just too much lecturing?
Re: Weak movies (Score:3)
Didn't you realize those are WOMEN?!!? In the LEAD roles?!?! In an ACTION film?!?! That previously had MEN in LEAD?!?!
Woke so hard..:
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Just great. The box clearly had a sign labeled "Danger! Leopard! Do Not Open." And yet you cracked it open for a peek. Alright, let's get the tranq gun and try to get it closed back up...
Re: (Score:2)
That may be part of it, but the biggest problem I had with the last two marvel movies I saw - the latest Thor:Love and Thunder and Dr Strange in the Multiverse of Madness movies - was that it just seemed... pointless.
Perhaps I'm getting too old and cynical to enjoy these kinds of movies any more, but they both felt like they were really aiming for the under 12 market. Thor's armor looked like it was made of plastic even more than usual, and the ridiculously OP'ness of the witch in Dr Strange until of course
Re: (Score:2)
> was that it just seemed... pointless
My exact reaction, too. About midway through I just realize that I'm having trouble caring about any of it, and that it's a giant, convoluted mess of things all thrown together.
Plus, the go-to plot device seems to always be "BTW there's something yet bigger and more powerful that we've never mentioned before and you need to do a quest to get to it. Also, your nemesis is simultaneously becoming aware of it right now, so you better hurry!"
Re:Weak movies (Score:4, Insightful)
> was that it just seemed... pointless
My exact reaction, too. About midway through I just realize that I'm having trouble caring about any of it, and that it's a giant, convoluted mess of things all thrown together.
They've been like this for ages imo. After watching a few Iron Man and Avengers movies, everything just blurs together and makes no difference.
It's just schlock, fun enough at the moment but without any lasting value. Which is fine if that's what you want, but meh. To namedrop Scorsese, who totally agrees with me, it's not cinema.
Re: (Score:2)
Except wokeness is only half the reason that the films are doing bad. The other half is that the purpose of the films is no longer to be primarily about the character they are purportedly about but to push others to boost Disney's streaming content. MoM was meant to further Wanda's storyline and introduce America Chavez for her TV show. Thor was meant to push Valkyrie. The only upcoming which might avoid such a fate is GotG 3, except they're almost certain to try and tie RBF Marvel back into it.
The plot is dumb (Score:2)
Simple as that. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoyed them, but you have to really ignore the plot holes for it.
The story line started by Loki and WandaVision was great, but the follow up, not so much.
My humble opinion.
Re: (Score:2)
I'd add even more.
I don't like Wanda-Vision characters so I didn't see the TV series.
When I went to see Doctor Strange 2 into cinema I was "WTH is happening?" and after 20 min I thought "Maybe the WandaVision TV series is related to.... this."
Would have hurt them sooooooooo much to have included a resume of that TV series at the beginning of the movie?
I mean, the movie is called "Doctor Strange 2" not "WandaVision finale"...
Re: (Score:3)
Re:The plot is dumb (Score:4, Interesting)
I didn't see the Age of Ultron. So when the next movie came out and I went with my friends, who had told me "nothing much in Age of Ultron, you don't need to see it", I was confused. New characters from nowhere, no love interests from nowhere, new plot threads from nowhere. It was like watching a random soap opera episode. When I eventually saw Age of Ultron years later, things started making sense (for some wacky reason, Ultron on pay-per-view was always up in the $15-$20 range, the most expensive to see despite being the one dismissed the most by fans). And that's the problem with Marvel movies; there's too much going on and you can't watch most of them as a standalone movie.
Re: (Score:2)
WandaVision aka "How to turn your hero into a fundamentally bad person, without noticing, until it was too late to save the character"
They did exactly what they set out to do with Wanda in WandaVision. There was no "without noticing" involved. They were intentionally sunsetting the character going into the new phase.
Re: (Score:3)
"They will never know what you sacrifed for them". Acting like her no longer brainwashing a town and hijacking their lives was a noble action.
Feels similar to complimenting that character in Homeland for not detonating the bomb he was wearing in season 1. "you're a good person!!"
Re:The plot is dumb (Score:4, Informative)
Given the skin color of the residents of Wakanda it's fairly certain its fictional location is in Sub-Saharan Africa. The only activities of significance that I know of that the Nazi's got up to in Africa were in North Africa so that's not really problematic at all.
They probably would have been content to let the European colonials fight amongst each other well away from themselves.
Re: (Score:2)
speaking of plot holes, what in the fuck was Wakanda doing while Hitler invaded Africa?
ignoring the outside world (because they had enough technology to steamroll everyone else if they wanted) like they did for hundreds of years until black panther because they are a fundamentally a isolationist nation.
Disney+ (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Disney+ (Score:4, Insightful)
Same. And we bought a 75-inch TV last fall ... I'd rather watch the movies at home. No need to worry about what precautions this week or next week need to be taken to be in an enclosed space with a bunch of strangers who may or may believe in vaccines or whatever the case may be. I also need the ability to pause to hit the head. I doubt I'll ever go to a theatre again, just don't care that much about the experience.
Re: (Score:2)
And, don't forget the importance of having your OWN bar nearby, and no drive home.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
What other vaccines prior to Covid still allowed mass infection and transmission of vaccinated people?
Um, how about flu vaccine?
"But since the beginning of 2021 " (Score:4, Insightful)
Gee, what happened during 2021 that might have lowered box office grosses?
Re: (Score:3)
Studios stopped making movies available for streaming and tried to go back to exclusive theater viewing? Because 2020 had some good movies, and a lot of them were available with free or paid streaming options.
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah people keep on calling the doom of Marvel Studios based on movie performance in pandemic time. That does not make sense. They say Eternals did badly at the box office. I couldn't even see it in the theater, it was not physically possible for me to see it.
Black widow did badly? That was middle of the pandemic when the theaters did not let many people in. And most people I know chose to watch the movie at home.
Shang Chi did badly? The theaters were packed for weeks.
Spiderman: ditto.
MCU movies were still
Re: (Score:2)
There were a ton of people, including me, who predicted Marvel was take a serious downward trajectory long before the Disease of Unknown Origin ever became public. The reasons for the current crop of failures had nothing to do with the pandemic, although that just made things that much worse.
Re: "But since the beginning of 2021 " (Score:4, Funny)
Considering the quality of some of the scripts, could they just get shot?
Overload (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not a fan of Marvel, so I'll say that up front. But when there are so many movies coming out that you can't keep up with them all, you stop wanting to keep up with them all. Even if you would otherwise be game to spend on a ticket for cheap entertainment, can you really even remember all the shovelware movies being put out? Do the studios even take the time to make unique, interesting stories? They probably don't even have the resources to do quality control on the productions anymore - there are too many.
Re:Overload (Score:4, Insightful)
I think the inverse is true; so few good movies are produced that many people have tuned them out completely and only watch TV shows now, which seems to be the last bastion of anything resembling quality writing.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm definitely enjoying Peaky Blinders better than the last two marvel movies I watched. The fights might be a bit over the top but at least the (anti) hero spends a significant amount of time getting patched up after, and not just bouncing up fresh as a daisy after a near-death fight. It shows there's serious and painful consequences for violence.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Is it? Do they have it listed in chronological order? I'm not interested, but I wouldn't expect it to be easy just because they're all there.
Critical Drinker will tell you why (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
(1) Ms. Marvel is not a movie (it's a series on Disney+)
(2) The link does not review any movie or series (it's just a review for the promotional trailer)
(3) Signs are that this is not a reliable review source.
Re: Critical Drinker will tell you why (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3)
Interesting, I found Critical Drinker to be insufferable.
Re: (Score:2)
Yep. The best thing about the ending of Game of Thrones is that I found his channel.
Re: (Score:2)
I usually agree with the Drinker, but even when I don't, he provides food for thought. His criticisms are spot-on.
Re: (Score:2)
I love that guy!!
Hell, on a slow weekend, I'll have a few drinks myself and watch some of his videos...funny funny stuff!
Most recent movies bad (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not really a Marvel fan, so maybe my thoughts on this don't apply as much to the larger audience that is more into Marvel properties...
Even though I'm not a Marvel fan, I do still watch most of the movies (though a lot of them on Disney Plus). And from what I have seen, most of the recent movies are not that great.
The only exception I would apply to that is No Way Home, which is just a great movie outright.
The most recent one I saw was Multiverse of Madness, and unlike previous ones I thought were just OK, I thought it was actually terrible. It made no sense at all in combination with the Wandavision series (which I did enjoy). It has some great visuals I suppose but so many aspects of the story just made no sense. You want great multiverse content, watch Loki or No Way Home, Multiverse was not the movie you were looking for.
I really feel like branching into the multiverse may be a giant mistake for Marvel movies, just letting them go wild with senseless plots and (nothing new here) over-reliance on CGI.
I have no doubt superhero movies will continue to be OK but I think the Marvel ship is really starting to drift and other superheroes properties in different universes may draw more interest.
Re:Most recent movies bad (Score:4, Informative)
I *am* a big Marvel fan, and I agree with everything you wrote.
The last few movies I've seen in theaters (Eternals, Black Widow, Dr. Strange MOM, Thor L&T) have been between "meh" and very bad. The Thor L&T movie that's in theaters right now is shockingly bad, an enormous dropoff from the last one which was among my favorites. Marvel's had a "sophomore slump" trend all along (this is Taika Watiti's 2nd Thor film), but that doesn't explain all of the current drop in quality.
Also agreed that the "multiverse" aspect is a big misfire. Now anything that happens can, by default, be erased by grabbing something from an alternate universe; that tremendously lowers the stakes to everything. We've already seen joke-useless versions of Thanos, the Infinity Stones, etc., multiple times. MOM had to raise the threat to "destroy all universes", and have a plot element at the end of "erase the evil book from all universes" to get any closure.
I'll add that the Disney+ series have also been incredibly frustrating. Even if they have a strong initial concept (e.g., WandaVision, as you say), in every almost every case they end the series without a conclusion, as a promotional cliffhanger to an upcoming film. They really should make those series more closed-world and be able to stick a legitimate landing at the end of them. (Finally, the CGI in the upcoming She-Hulk series looks like the most wretched thing I've ever seen from Marvel, and again, I'm a huge fan of She-Hulk from the comics.)
Re: (Score:2)
> (this is Taika Watiti's 2nd Thor film), but that doesn't explain all of the current drop in quality.
I think no one was there to rein in his bad tendencies and have some proper perspective. Not everything can be filled with goofy comedy. Some things need to be serious. He got that mostly right in "Ragnarok" (a statement I realize a lot of people will disagree with), but Thor still needs some gravitas. They've turned him into an idiot (and this happened in "Endgame" which was in most ways a really exc
Re: (Score:2)
Actually, I found love and thunder to be really fun.
I mean, it's a dumb movie. But it's fun.
I'll actually go watch it it again this week end probably!
Re: (Score:2)
The most recent one I saw was Multiverse of Madness, and unlike previous ones I thought were just OK, I thought it was actually terrible. It made no sense at all in combination with the Wandavision series (which I did enjoy). It has some great visuals I suppose but so many aspects of the story just made no sense. You want great multiverse content, watch Loki or No Way Home, Multiverse was not the movie you were looking for.
The backstory here is that MoM was supposed to come out before No Way Home. However, big-screen SpiderMan is under the control of Sony, who insisted that No Way Home be released on the agreed date. This led to a hurried rewrite and reshoot of MoM, whilst keeping certain story elements that had been shot (such as Wanda's kids because they would have grown by several years now).
So, MoM was supposed to have the multiverse cracking open following the antics of WandaVision and Loki, with NWH sealing the multiver
Comment removed (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Black Widow was all splash but super ridiculous.
Black Widow was needed several years earlier, before Natasha died during Endgame. All it really did in the end was introduce Yelana and set up Hawkeye on Disney+, a terrible waste of a movie. Disney+ setting up movies? That's fine; let's get six hours of character development done well (Ms. Marvel & Moon Knight) or do something interesting that maybe doesn't translate well to the big screen (Loki). But a movie to set up a TV series? Nah.
TFM comic book movies (Score:3)
Could we maybe get back to making movies that aren't CGI-fests? Episodic TV this year has all the Marvel drek beat by miles.
Comics are necessarily visual, which makes them comparatively easy to sell as properties to movie studios, but they're also necessarily reductive, as you don't get to make audiences linger over a frame for minutes as the plot unfolds.
I'd really like to see more good films, much less Marvel.
Re: (Score:3)
The box-office movie theater experience is amost always going to big budget tentpole films (and horror which still delivers numbers based on their low budgets) now as that's all that can justify the moey needed for a wide release. The "mid-budget" drama/comedy movie has all moved to streaming and really has basically been replaced by TV series now which are much more marketable on the streaming services.
We have had some good films this year though with things like "The Northman", "Everything, Everywhere Al
approval rating among critics (Score:2, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3)
Yeah the age of the newspaper-movie-critic is long dead, it's near impossible to know who to listen to. If you go on Youtube you either find franchise simps who eat up all the shit the studios feed them (and possibly pay them) and on the opposite side you have a cadre of "anti-sjw" critics who will shit on anything because there is a political agenda they have cultivated their audiences off of. It's hard to feel like people are judging these things on the storycraft, character development and plotlines no
Quality has dropped (Score:2)
Perhaps because the quality has dropped? I liked love and thunder, but it wasn't nearly as good as Ragnarok.
No name characters aren't a problem either; no one knew who the guardians were before 2014.
The writing had gone markedly down hill over the past couple years is the problem.
Need to mix up the strategy (Score:3, Interesting)
After Infinty War/Endgame at least for me it really felt like "the end" for Marvel films, that was a really pretty good finale for that whole decade of films starting with Iron Man. The stakes were literally as high as they could be with Thanos which leaves people satisfied but deflates the whole thing moving forward. Now with the need to develop a whole new set of characters to build the whole universe back up it starts to feel a bit overwhelming with the series on top of the movies.
I watched Dr Strange 2 because it was directed by Sam Raimi and it was fine but that really showed the artistic limits of how they produce these things. You could see the bits and pieces of what Raimi is really good at but it's pretty easy to tell where he was limited by the overarching "rules" these movies have to have in terms of leading into the next movies. Like a non-Marvel Sam Raimi movie about a magical wizard man would probably be off the wall bonkers and a lot of fun but it just felt watered down.
It's pretty well known that directors and writers only have so much creative freedome over these films and I think that is starting to show. They all kinda feel formulaic, they're trapped in a box now.
Whereas Star Wars being the other big Disney franchise suffered from a lack of overarching direction Marvel has the opposite problem with too much top down control and a corporate need to hit every demographic and not risk too much at any time. Even something like WandaVision started off with something pretty clever and unique artistically wrapped itself up in the same special effects laden action schlock to feed the next movie. That and they have not found anyone close to the star and charisma appeal that RDJ and Chris Evans brought.
Saturation. (Score:5, Insightful)
I've had enough of comic book movies - I'm done. They have ground me into complete disinterest. Just like Star Wars. I don't give a sweet god damn how angsty you make the protagonist, or how big the explosions get - I'm out. The last one I saw in the theatre was Guardians of the Galaxy 2. And I don't think I've seen an Avengers movie, despite two of them being unopened in my UHD "pending" stack in the coffee table.
I've been bombarded into walking away.
Too much back story... too much FX... too fast... (Score:4, Insightful)
For pure entertainment value, my take on any movie is that it should be able to stand on its own, without requiring a whole bunch of "lore", of "back story" or a "story arc" to understand it.
Marvel movies can be _hard_ work - those who are well versed in the "Marvel Universe" can laugh at in-jokes, or get subtle references to other titles.
For those who aren't familiar, that content falls flat.
Another issue is an over reliance on special FX over actual story line - there's a balance between "gee whiz" eye-candy and conveying a cohesive story.
In many Marvel movies, the story often plays second fiddle - or worse, it's just a garbled mess of "gee whiz", that can get tiring _real_ quick.
Then we get to the speed at which things happen, for me, that's probably an age or cultural issue.
If there's too many things happening on the screen at once, in quick succession, I just get overload - I'm still swallowing some cognitive load in my mind and then bang. bang. bang, 3 other things are going on at the same time - Whaaaat?
"Hold up! - WTF is going on now?"
And, perhaps, there's a general overload issue for sci-fi movies - we may have been in a golden age of sci-fi shows and movies and it's been great and all, but god damn it, isn't it time we changed the tune a bit?
There's been so many dystopian movies released, that no longer seem like escapism - they now seem to be "Hell, yeah, just like the real world".
These days? - FFS, I want some _happy_ - some escapism that takes me away from the dire circumstances the world is facing.
This happened in the World War eras BIG time - the movies produced were often happy escapism away from the shitty situation the world was in.
Re: (Score:2)
For pure entertainment value, my take on any movie is that it should be able to stand on its own, without requiring a whole bunch of "lore", of "back story" or a "story arc" to understand it.
Here's a good example - I've not been watching any Marvel movies. I really wanted to watch WandaVision. I got exactly what I wanted, and I really didn't have to know anything about the MCU to enjoy it. And a good story, too.
Still an incredible ROI (Score:2)
"Thor Love and Thunder": budget: $250 million, box office: $607 million. ROI: 240%
I understand that maybe they expected more, and that Hollywood accounting is a bit more complicated than this, but this is still a great business. Who wouldn't love a low-risk investement opportunity with almost guaranteed 100% profit margin?
Re: (Score:2)
Rule of thumb I have always heard is take the production budget and double it to account for advertising, marketing and press and that gets you a better idea of how much money they are looking to make, but like you said, the way they use numbers is all very complicated and seemingly fraudulent at times.
The RedLetterMedia guys do a very entertaining take on "Hollywood Accounting" in this episode: Half in the Bag Episode 117: Box Office Number Crunching [youtube.com]
Re: (Score:2)
"Eternals" budget: $200 million, box office: $402 million. ROI: 200%
"Thor Love and Thunder": budget: $250 million, box office: $607 million. ROI: 240%
I understand that maybe they expected more, and that Hollywood accounting is a bit more complicated than this, but this is still a great business. Who wouldn't love a low-risk investement opportunity with almost guaranteed 100% profit margin?
Those budget numbers don't include marketing and distribution costs and fees, and the return doesn't take into account the distribution deals that can, in some cases, eat most of a film's profits. There's a fair debate about whether Eternals may have lost money for Marvel. Same for Black Widow.
COVID Changed Movies (Score:2)
Most of this is just fallout from COVID. People stopped going to movies after it hit. The Black Widow / Eternals / Shang Chi run was pretty good for the time they released. Most movies did far worse in theaters and very few did better.
Spiderman No Way Home was the big "welcome back" to theaters after COVID, the first movie to meet pre-COVID expectations.
Now we're in a bit of an in between state - the biggest movies do pretty well, but everything else is still doing worse than pre-COVID.
Some of it probably i
Eeeh (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
You're not supposed to think. You're supposed to watch the spectacular explosions. Please keep still and only watchen astaunished
the blinkenlights.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Yup. The older you get the more life sucks. First candy doesn't taste as great as it did, then games ain't what they used to be, movies start losing their appeal... it's all going downhill.
Endgame ended it (Score:5, Insightful)
They neutered the franchise (Score:5, Insightful)
They killed off Iron Man and Black Widow and got rid of Captain America.
They made the Hulk nice and Thor fat.
What were they thinking? Of course nobody was going to see the second-class heroes even if their powers were super over-powered. Nobody cares.
Also, the meta-verse allows for too much variability, so a writer can just use the meta-verse to get out of any problem now.
Re: (Score:2)
Banner was always nice, and the "Smart Hulk"/"Professor Hulk" was a long-standing character, so at least they had that going from the comics. But you're right. Fat Thor was insulting to the character to a great extent. Killing off Stark, Widow, and Cap (not confirmed dead, but, sure).... And replacing all these characters with the female counterparts to avoid licensing payouts to the creators' families.
Re: (Score:3)
But the main problem is that very few of these characters have any depth to them. And no, a detailed backstory does not necessarily lend depth to a character, nor does making him dark and broody.
Box office? (Score:2)
No one cares about your box office revenues. The entire theater experience sucks and I've had better sound and picture in my house for almost 2 decades now.
Poor Characters, Poor Stories (Score:2)
Not sure why anyone would want to drop $30 in a movie theatre to watch the latest turds from Marvel. We need better characters and better stories. WandaVision and Thor just simply aren't that compelling.
Do they have to be blockbusters? (Score:2)
They're churning material out in massive quantities; not everything can be a hit, but they should be finding economies of scale that allow them to make OK money with moderately successful films and then boatloads of money on the hits.
One of the big savings should be in promotion costs, which are *one third* of a blockbuster movies total costs. Since the stories overlap and the films and TV shows basically advertise other Marvel properties.
Consider the latest Thor movie which cost $250 to actually produce.
Re: (Score:2)
The thing is that the analysis makes no sense.
In 2018, we saw a few action movies that did really well in the worldwide box office that I'm putting here for comparisons
Black panther: $1.3B
Infinity War: $2B
Deadpool2 (which was in no way a dud): $700M
Mission impossible fallout: $780M
Ant man and the wasp: $630M
Then in non action:
Crazy rich Asian (which was a world wide success): $230M
Dr. Seuss and the Gricnch: $530M
And so we are saying that Thor: Love and Thunder is a dud because it grossed ONLY $600M. Or that
They need some humility anyway. (Score:4, Informative)
Doctor Strange was barely the hero in his own (2nd) movie. Alternate Wanda was the hero.
What's worse: The creators of the characters are getting *FUCKED* on the licensing. Did you know their contracts say it's only a "cameo" if they're in the movie for 15% or less of the film? That means the creator of the WINTER FREAKING SOLDIER got paid the least amount in his contract because Bucky Barnes was only on screen long enough in Cap2 to qualify for "cameo" status even though the fucking movie was all about his character.
The 'Little Sister Syndrome' (Score:3, Insightful)
There's a couple reasons (Score:3)
First, the obvious one: Saturation. Every other movie that hits the big screen is some superhero movie. At some point you just don't care anymore. Worse, you start to compare. And you always compare with the best. Never the worst. You don't say "Well, at least it wasn't as crappy as Fantastic Four". You say "That didn't even get close to Avengers Endgame". With every good movie, that bar gets higher and higher and expectations match that. Because movies of a genre get compared. A movie that would have met solid reviews 10 years ago will get panned today because it just ain't up to the movies it will be compared to.
Then, the theme one. Is there really some interesting superhero left that we haven't gotten at the very least 2 movies out yet? Now, I'm hardly a comic book geek, but there have already been a couple movies of heros that I have never heard of. More and more obscure heros get their own movie, which will probably be something the real fans enjoy because "their" hero finally gets acknowledged, but the average movie goer is left puzzled.
That leads to the third problem. Everyone knows Superman. Ok. Batman, ok. We mostly know that guy now too. Green Lantern and Silver Surfer? Uhh.... yeah, if you read their books and you know their lore and back story, sure, but the average viewer? So you'd need to explain enough to make the character understandable without boring the geeks. Not that easy. And you better not fuck it up or the fans will cry for your blood that you dared to change something in the heros backstory so it fits into the 2 hours you have for your movie.
And all that on top of the rest of the problems cinema has today, from "written by committee" to the Covid aftermath.
In other words, I'd dial back the frequency. More quality, less quantity. Yes, I know, everyone thinks that superhero movies are just the licence to print money, but there is such a thing as oversaturating. If you get people fed up with your superhero movies, you slaughter the goose that lays your golden eggs.
My reasons (Score:2)
They suck (Score:2)
Try making movies that don't suck.
Thor: Love and Thunder
Ten Rings
Eternals
All sucked. Characters sucked. Plot sucked.
Besides all that, having gay characters just for the sake of appealing to the whole crowd doesn't help. Lookin at you, Eternals, Thor and Dr. Strange!
Make movies that don't suck and not woke and they might make more money.
Re: (Score:2)
Try making movies that don't suck.
Thor: Love and Thunder
Ten Rings
These were good movies! The black and white fight scene in Thor was excellent so was the final action piece.
In Shang Chi, most of the martial art choreography and cinematography of the action pieces were excellent (beside the final one which was a CGI fest)
Eternals
Ok, that was pretty bad!
All sucked. Characters sucked. Plot sucked.
If you go see a marvel movie for the plot, I agree with you. But it's like saying that strip clubs are terrible because the hostess have little conversations.
Besides all that, having gay characters just for the sake of appealing to the whole crowd doesn't help. Lookin at you, Eternals, Thor and Dr. Strange!
Wait, who's gay in Dr. Strange? Oh yeah America Chavez is Queer. But the
It's not quantity, it's quality (Score:2)
The older MCU films had better plotlines and better production quality. They were something you'd spend your money on to go see in a theater. These latest films are just dumb, poorly written shells that only die-hards will pay to watch. The Disney of today has the innate ability to make money but they also drive franchises into the ground. It's as though they have children writing the scripts and other children producing the feature-length films.
milk it till it's dead (Score:2)
we dont need no stinkin paywall (Score:2)
https://archive.ph/HMpWO [archive.ph]
Theaters suck (Score:3)
End Game was the end for me (Score:3)
I was so disappointed by End Game that I just stopped caring. There was 30-45 minutes of decent movie in there somewhere, but the rest was a dreary mess.
Re: (Score:2)