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Movies AI

Actors Say Hollywood Studios Want Their AI Replicas -- For Free, Forever (theverge.com) 203

An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Verge: During today's press conference in which Hollywood actors confirmed that they were going on strike, Duncan Crabtree-Ireland, SAG-AFTRA's chief negotiator, revealed a proposal from Hollywood studios that sounds ripped right out of a Black Mirror episode. In a statement about the strike, the Alliance of Motion Picture and Television Producers (AMPTP) said that its proposal included "a groundbreaking AI proposal that protects actors' digital likenesses for SAG-AFTRA members."

When asked about the proposal during the press conference, Crabtree-Ireland said that "This 'groundbreaking' AI proposal that they gave us yesterday, they proposed that our background performers should be able to be scanned, get one day's pay, and their companies should own that scan, their image, their likeness and should be able to use it for the rest of eternity on any project they want, with no consent and no compensation. So if you think that's a groundbreaking proposal, I suggest you think again."

The use of generative AI has been one of the major sticking points in negotiations between the two sides (it's also a major issue behind the writers strike), and in her opening statement of the press conference, SAG-AFTRA president Fran Drescher said that "If we don't stand tall right now, we are all going to be in trouble, we are all going to be in jeopardy of being replaced by machines." The SAG-AFTRA strike will officially commence at midnight tonight.

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Actors Say Hollywood Studios Want Their AI Replicas -- For Free, Forever

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  • While I can certainly understand the resistance, now is probably about the last time in history that a considerable number of people will be able to earn money just by showing up and looking pretty in front of a camera. They should take the chance before it's too late.

    For any actor who isn't a capital-B Big Name, who will pull in audiences by virtue of their existing fanbase alone, they will shortly be replaced by generated actors who never complain, never go on strike, always do their jobs perfectly on
    • by dexterace ( 68362 ) on Friday July 14, 2023 @02:54AM (#63684763)

      Acting is much more than looks alone. It often helps, but if it's helping too much then you're not really acting.
      The perception trick that makes seeing an actor a valuable experience is very, very subtle: the slopes of uncanny valley are indeed steep, as the first Final Fantasy movie demo'ed to everyone.

      • by nicubunu ( 242346 ) on Friday July 14, 2023 @04:37AM (#63684909) Homepage

        Read the summary, this is about "background performers", those don't do much acting. As for the FF: The Spirits Within, the uncanny valley was huge because they were using a different technology, 3D rendering. It doesn't compare with "AI" deep fakes from today, which use parts of real people images.

        • by W2k ( 540424 ) on Friday July 14, 2023 @05:44AM (#63685027) Journal
          Exactly. Background performers who barely got credit for being in the movie in the first place will be first to go. Then, then smaller roles who don't have many scenes or are far enough away from the "camera" that you can't really tell - imagine the low-level mooks being shot by the hero protagonist across a battlefield or busy chaotic scene, for instance.

          This is what will end up killing acting as a viable career. If only the big names with existing huge fanbases can still get paid, there's no ladder to climb to get to be a big name actor, unless you already made your fanbase outside of cinema.
    • Actors and Actresses are not like normal people (just like top level gymnasts are not like normal people). Successful actors and actresses have a unique quality about them in person that is "magnetic" to others. There is something about their mannerism/actions/methods of speaking that just makes people want to be near them, listen to them, and even be them. AI can not capture that (yet!).

      The cream of the crop will ALWAYS be in demand. We can not even think of replacing those people with AI until we develop

  • Alternative (Score:5, Insightful)

    by khchung ( 462899 ) on Friday July 14, 2023 @02:16AM (#63684707) Journal

    The alternative is Hollywood studios generate their own cast of virtual faces from scratch, which they will own the IP and can use for free, forever.

    Guess which one is worse for actors?

    When studios can generate a movie completely using CG, without any participation from actors, acting as a career is dead anyway.

    • When studios can generate a movie completely using CG, without any participation from actors, acting as a career is dead anyway.

      You'd be surprised how much customer sentiment will affect business models. Cashiers could be economically replaced with vending machines. That's what the automat was. Yet for some reason, fast food chains like McDonalds never bothered to go full automat.

      • Re:Alternative (Score:5, Insightful)

        by khchung ( 462899 ) on Friday July 14, 2023 @02:41AM (#63684749) Journal

        Cashiers could be economically replaced with vending machines. That's what the automat was. Yet for some reason, fast food chains like McDonalds never bothered to go full automat.

        You would be surprised if you look around the world. Many fast-food chains now have web-based/app-based ordering system, and people would order on their phone (even remotely), pay on the phone or pay at kiosks, and then just wait to pick up the food when done. No cashiers at all.

        • by lsllll ( 830002 )
          You're mixing apples and oranges. It's one thing to order on the web or the phone and go pick up your food. But if I go into a fast food joint, I'd want to talk to a person. Most humans are social creatures. Many will refuse out of principle to order on a machine and will boycott the place, most likely because they have a stake, like a couple of kids who are going to need part-time jobs and they want to send a message to the corporation.
          • I recently had to go to a mcdonalds to buy gluten free burger for my child as there was no gluten free alternative around (and we were travelling). I was surprised there were no cashiers, only touch sensitive kiosks. The only people I could see working there were a lady handing out ready meals, the cooks and the forced-smile-lady helping customers figure out the kiosks. It was very dystopian.

          • by khchung ( 462899 )

            But if I go into a fast food joint, I'd want to talk to a person. Most humans are social creatures. Many will refuse out of principle to order on a machine and will boycott the place, most likely because they have a stake, like a couple of kids who are going to need part-time jobs and they want to send a message to the corporation.

            Sure, some people also prefer waiters who would actually wait at the table throughout the whole dining experience, and they are willing to pay for it, but they also just won't go to a fast-food chain expecting that. If you insist on having a cashier to serve you, maybe fast-food chains is going to lose your business soon.

          • I don't want to talk to a person, a kiosk is much better: I am with my family, we can take our time and browse, compare, put items in the cart, change our minds and remove, start over again, comment about price and such and no judgemental tired cashier will look at us while doing that.

          • And yet the self-checkout lines at the grocery store are often the longest. I suppose because people would rather just do things themselves because they think they can do it better, but also because the human cashiers are getting to be fewer and fewer.

          • All of the McDonalds around here have remodeled and cut their order counter sizes to a third of what they once were. Order Kiosks are everywhere. If you want to order from a human, you get to stand at the counter and wait for a drive-thru employee to get around to taking your order.
        • by mjwx ( 966435 )

          Cashiers could be economically replaced with vending machines. That's what the automat was. Yet for some reason, fast food chains like McDonalds never bothered to go full automat.

          You would be surprised if you look around the world. Many fast-food chains now have web-based/app-based ordering system, and people would order on their phone (even remotely), pay on the phone or pay at kiosks, and then just wait to pick up the food when done. No cashiers at all.

          The problem with going full auto is what happens when the automation fails. It happens a lot more than you think, network issues, bugs, Problem between door and touchscreen.

          Don't get me wrong, I tend to favour the automated systems these days (self service checkout/order machines) but shit goes wrong. When that shit goes wrong you need a human to repair or fall back on manual processes.

          A KLM B738 holds 180 pax. I once had a flight on one of these on the same day London Heathrow had a major communications ou

      • by vadim_t ( 324782 )

        Cashiers still survive because automation has usability downsides. But that's being solved little by little, and eventually things may even reverse with humans in the loop becoming a rarity.

        I just ordered food online, on a webpage. This means there's no cashier, just an order that got sent to a kitchen. Eventually we'll have food delivered by drone and cooked by a robot too.

        And to be honest, I really prefer it that way in many cases. I don't want to hold up a line, pondering which cheese and sauce I want. O

    • Re:Alternative (Score:4, Interesting)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) on Friday July 14, 2023 @04:01AM (#63684855) Homepage Journal

      When studios can generate a movie completely using CG, without any participation from actors, acting as a career is dead anyway.

      If that was the case you would expect animated movies to not bother with big name stars. Often those big names are particularly good at voice acting anyway, but they still use them despite there being better and cheaper people available.

      It's a Hollywood thing. Take the Super Mario Bros movie. Big names in the English version, but the Japanese dub used career voice actors. The acting in the Japanese version is much, much better, but then again voice actors get more recognition over there too.

      • by khchung ( 462899 )

        When studios can generate a movie completely using CG, without any participation from actors, acting as a career is dead anyway.

        If that was the case you would expect animated movies to not bother with big name stars. Often those big names are particularly good at voice acting anyway, but they still use them despite there being better and cheaper people available.

        It's a Hollywood thing. Take the Super Mario Bros movie. Big names in the English version, but the Japanese dub used career voice actors. The acting in the Japanese version is much, much better, but then again voice actors get more recognition over there too.

        Yes, voice acting is something computer cannot come up with as good as humans YET.

        I still remember the Final Fantasy movie over 20 years ago that was 100% CG, and it was obviously not as good as human actors. I think computer generated voice right now is not even at the level of CG visuals of FF, so perhaps the current generation of voice actors can still have a career until they retire. But what about 20 years from now? It is only a matter of time before AI generated voice sounds as good as the best voi

      • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        *not particularly good at voice acting

        I know, preview button, like I'm going to bother.

    • by havana9 ( 101033 )
      Movies generated completely using CG are called cartoons. I prefer classic cel drawing ones like Akira, but there are very good 3D CG ones, like Wall-e or the Mario Bros movie.
      Now if a studio doesn't have the money for a big star, there are other options, like hire less known actors or people that aren't professional actors.
      • Re:Alternative (Score:4, Interesting)

        by khchung ( 462899 ) on Friday July 14, 2023 @04:38AM (#63684919) Journal

        Movies generated completely using CG are called cartoons.

        Only Americans are so hung-up on the distinction of "cartoons" vs so-called "real movies". Even LOTR 20 years ago had so much CG portions that it is over 50% "cartoon" already.

        Just take a look at modern FPS games like COD and Battlefield. Or RPG like Horizon or Final Fantasy. The cut-scenes are 100% computer generated but is so life-like that it is difficult to tell them apart from any scifi movies. It is entirely technically feasible to make a 100% CG version of Fast and Furious where only experts could tell it was CG and not filmed.

        It is only a matter of time before some studio in Hollywood made a CG movie using completely made-up "actors" and learn that they can pocket all the money paid to big name actors for the floodgate to open.

        • Yeah, you can see evidence of this in the Netflix anthology series "Love, Death and Robots". Specifically, the episode "Jibaro" in season 3; I honestly cannot tell that it is CGI.

    • The alternative is Hollywood studios generate their own cast of virtual faces from scratch, which they will own the IP and can use for free, forever.

      Guess which one is worse for actors?

      When studios can generate a movie completely using CG, without any participation from actors, acting as a career is dead anyway.

      There is one interesting thing about the idea that soon all acting will be AI avatars.

      One of the consistent trends for about forever is that people form attachments to particular individuals. And it can work in reverse as well, as present day LucasFilms is finding out.

      People talk about them, people like or dislike them. They go on television talk shows and in the news. Fandom is a force.

      I'm finding it a little difficult to imagine that many people are going to become all that interested in the indu

    • by nagora ( 177841 )

      The alternative is Hollywood studios generate their own cast of virtual faces from scratch, which they will own the IP and can use for free, forever.

      Guess which one is worse for actors?

      Paid once for eternity or not at all? Big fucking difference.

  • Idoru (Score:4, Informative)

    by TwistedGreen ( 80055 ) on Friday July 14, 2023 @02:22AM (#63684717)

    Yeah sure, it was ripped our of Black Mirror, not Idoru or anything.

  • Idiots (Score:5, Insightful)

    by locater16 ( 2326718 ) on Friday July 14, 2023 @02:40AM (#63684747)
    How is Hollywood run by such incompetent idiots? Cocaine, I bet it's cocain cocaine.
    It's the only explanation for hearing the word "AI" and substituting in "magic". "Magic" will make actors give up ever having a career and their hopes and dreams. "Magic" is button that can replace writers entirely. "Magic"is a button that produces shows and movies for free forever! Sure, these execs have no idea how "magic" works, have never tried it for themselves, and have never talked to anyone that's so much as used this "magic". But who needs to do that, it's magic!
    • Re:Idiots (Score:5, Funny)

      by Freischutz ( 4776131 ) on Friday July 14, 2023 @03:00AM (#63684771)

      How is Hollywood run by such incompetent idiots? Cocaine, I bet it's cocain cocaine. It's the only explanation for hearing the word "AI" and substituting in "magic". "Magic" will make actors give up ever having a career and their hopes and dreams. "Magic" is button that can replace writers entirely. "Magic"is a button that produces shows and movies for free forever! Sure, these execs have no idea how "magic" works, have never tried it for themselves, and have never talked to anyone that's so much as used this "magic". But who needs to do that, it's magic!

      They're not incompetent idiots, they are capitalists, winners of the great meritocracy due to their greater ability, natural genetic superiority and massive intellect. The two can sometimes be hard to tell apart.

    • by narcc ( 412956 )

      Greed makes people really, really, stupid.

    • by WDot ( 1286728 )
      When you look at the quality of the content AI is competing with, honestly it can replace writers and artists in some case. That’s not to say that AI is so creative and brilliant, but that most art is make-work and disposable. One of the obvious use cases for AI-generated images is illustrations for online news articles. Most of those illustrations are forgettable and are just there to have a picture that vaguely relates to the topic. I have now seen multiple substacks cite AI algorithms as the source
  • You guys don't even put real cheese on your burgers, and you're eating those. Virtual cast in 3, 2, 1...

  • Why not just have AI generate as many likenesses as Hollywood needs for the "background performers" - that is something AI has proven to be real good at. Each background actor is automatically substituted with the AI generated background likeness, so they can keep the rights to their own likeness no problem (though that likeness will never appear on screen).
    • You stopped a step short - you actually replace the background characters (and interactive props) entirely. Only people and things the main actors interact with need be real.

      And then when you get to the editing stage, you don't have to worry about whether the background actors are moving around in a consistent way with whatever order you stitch bits of takes together... you add them in post, perfect every time.

  • by Gregg M ( 2076 ) on Friday July 14, 2023 @03:05AM (#63684777) Homepage

    Michael Crichton was way ahead of his time. Take a look at Looker (1981).
    Scan models after they get plastic surgery to become perfect.
    Have the models license their images so you can make movies and TV shows and commercials with their likenesses.

    In the movie they killled the models so they couldn't compete with the licensed versions.
    --
    Linux is only free if your time has no value. Windows is only free if you threaten to use Linux.

  • by kaur ( 1948056 ) on Friday July 14, 2023 @03:10AM (#63684783)

    "The Congress", 2013/2014, by Ari Folman. It explores the life of an actress who has signed a contract with Hollywood to create and use a digital copy of herself.
    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1... [imdb.com]

    But we did not see it becoming a reality so fast.

    • by mad7777 ( 946676 )

      Thank for that. Just watched trailer. Looks interesting, but only 6.4 on IMDB.
      Was it any good?

      • by kaur ( 1948056 )

        Was it good - not really, to be honest.

        Just that the setting seemed like a distant dystopian future at the time of the release.
        And now we are here, in less than 10 years.
        It is not the idea that is astonishing here, but the speed of reaching it.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 14, 2023 @03:32AM (#63684817)

    Instead of freeing us, it's enslaving and drowning all of humanity. When applied to anything that should be REAL human communication (outside of the very routine), creativity, art etc. it's just incredibly corrosive and destructive to the very fabric of society and meaning. It does NOT belong there AT ALL.

    If people are honest and not just self-interested, they'd realize that it's a fundamentally broken world if you scale that. Everything fake... no sincerity, no competence, no meaning to what should be the highest value - even the people who do it the right way will be hurt because it will be hard to know for sure what came from a human and what was just empty words.

    People want to use AI for a competitive advantage, but they fail to see or simply do not wish to, that it makes all of humanity's toils pointless when set to ravage who we are. That's not a tool. That's a monster that doesn't need you given a decade at the most. AI is great in the right places - like helping synthesize new medicines. It's awful the way it is so often used today. It's a disaster in the end and it may lead to atrophy in thinking as well.

    The biggest chuckle I get is people comparing humans to AI and acting like the rules should be the same. The absolute inaneness of that thinking is disqualifying.

    • Acting, one of those professions to which many aspire yet only a handful of superstars make any money and all the rest struggle. So cliche there are tons of movies about that in itself. How did that happen? When live theatre was replaced by television - technology and capitalism hand in hand.
      Give it to the end of the decade and AI should replace capitalism itself https://www.genolve.com/design... [genolve.com]
  • by Kunedog ( 1033226 ) on Friday July 14, 2023 @03:32AM (#63684819)

    SAG-AFTRA president Fran Drescher

    In case you read this and suddenly wanted to hear the audio:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

  • Judging by the recent products of AI (including those of the much vaunted OpenAI), "AI" in most instances leaves the impression of "not quite human". Cool when it is supposed to be non-human (e.g. cartoonish) but when they try to replace a human's efforts, the uncanny valley [wikipedia.org] effect kicks in sooner or later.

    Heck, real actors have trouble being believable the whole film long (sometimes the script's fault, I'm sure), every now and then I get this "yeah right - this is so going to work IRL" urge.

    But, the soon

    • > "AI" in most instances leaves the impression of "not quite human".

      We long passed this. Just check out some of the stuff coming out of Midjourney.

  • Is there a chance that this will encourage the networks to show non-US shows and discover that Peoria is capable of appreciating such things? Netflix is beginning to demonstrate this...

    • Is there a chance that this will encourage the networks to show non-US shows and discover that Peoria is capable of appreciating such things? Netflix is beginning to demonstrate this...

      Why the fuck would I be interested in watching non-US shows?

      I'm wanting escapism...I don't want to have to listen hard to figure out what some heavily accented actor is saying (or have CC on), nor do I want to "learn" about culture differences....

      One of the reasons I kicked Netflix to the curb was...they started pushing sh

  • And how long before all characters are total CG, bearing no likeness to any actual human? Did these disgruntled actors stop to consider that their jobs may not even exist at all in a few more years?

  • Especially for background actors, who needs em anyway if they are digitally composited into the frame, why would you need those scans anyway. Wit even todays current state of unreal engine 5 and its Meta Humans, background characters can be generated on the fly, they already look lifelike and it's getting even mire realistic with each new update.
  • pay the actor the daily rate every time you use their image .(still saves on transport , costuming , h&S - hours etc.)
  • This is literally a fight between millionaires and billionaires, both very far removed from reality of every day existence. Every single last one of them has more than generations of offspring could spend.

    • by EvilSS ( 557649 )
      SAG-ARFTA has over 160,000 members and I guarantee you the majority of them are not millionaires.
  • Once CGI can consistently generate imaging (including people) indistinguishable from the real thing, human actors will be relegated to the stage.
  • For any actor who isn't a capital-B Big Name, who will pull in audiences by virtue of their existing fanbase alone, they will shortly be replaced by generated actors who never complain, never go on strike, always do their jobs perfectly on the first try, and come in packs of hundreds at the cost of a few VFX guys to twiddle the buttons.

    For background actors and extras, yes, absolutely. For actors who need to speak lines and display emotions and body language, we're not nearly there yet. Programming a virtual actor correctly would take more time and money that hiring a person, and you still would be in the "uncanny valley". Just look at the NPCs even in the best video games.

    However, I do think it is time for legislation (not just union contracts - actual legislation) to take on the topic of "likeness": a person's right to their recogniza

    • Just look at the NPCs even in the best video games.

      I think we may not be far off. In fact, the link below showcases video game developers who create a cast of NPC that are indistinguishable from real life. The attention to detail is so phenomenal that every single pixel is totally lifelike.

      https://www.youtube.com/playli... [youtube.com]

  • I'm going to say it'll be another 40 years before computers can simulate an actor 100% - brain and everything. That's not a huge amount of time, but it should be time enough for actors to work on lawmakers and the public to get enough mindshare to influence HOW such technology is used (legally, anyway).

    I'm not sure that going on strike will be conducive in this, but I'm not in their shoes and I've not done the Psychohistory calculations necessary to predict how to get the best possible outcome. (Oh, yeah, s

    • Based on experience, estimates by experts of how soon before AI can do something are off by a factor of at least 500. Consider for example, Minsky's estimate that computer vision could be accomplished over the summer on a 1960s computer.

  • No sympathy for Hollywood from me. There are many alternatives which produce better quality content for less money. Many of Netflix's hits were not produced in Hollywood.

    I have little sympathy for the workers involved in producing schlock, and much less for the billionaire mental midget actors who lecture me on politics.

    Hollywood routinely gets billions of dollars in various subsidies from states and local governments. More reason to withhold sympathy. Unfortunate that good people are on the bottom of t

  • by p51d007 ( 656414 ) on Friday July 14, 2023 @11:22AM (#63685851)
    Oh, it's ok if robots/AI replace blue collar workers but how DARE you think of replacing a Hollyweirdo! Screw em!
  • by bumblebees ( 1262534 ) on Friday July 14, 2023 @12:06PM (#63686051)
    Can't they just generate a bunch of characters and a/b test them? I for sure don't want to see Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible 105 when I'm a pensioner.

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