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Inquiry Into RIAA's Piracy Crackdown Tactics 727

MongooseCN writes "Sen. Norm Coleman started an inquiry to check the RIAA's tactics on attacking online music swappers. He believes the RIAA's tactics may not be taking into consideration the damage they do to innocent people. It's good to know that someone remembered people in the US have Rights." As a former roadie, Senator Coleman doesn't oppose file sharing penalities, he merely wants to make sure the punishment fits the crime.
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Inquiry Into RIAA's Piracy Crackdown Tactics

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  • So what now? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Tirel ( 692085 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:01AM (#6586707)
    Why did they have to wait so long? Couldn't this have been done _before_ so many people lost their money/got expelled. Do we really need to make so much noise before they make things happen? All in all, I'm glad they finally got their act together, but I worry that the only reason they're doing this is because the RIAA has something else planned.. Apparently, you only have rights if you belong to a group big enough to actually influence politics.
    • Re:So what now? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by CptChipJew ( 301983 ) * <michaelmillerNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:06AM (#6586729) Journal
      Couldn't this have been done _before_ so many people lost their money/got expelled. Do we really need to make so much noise before they make things happen?

      [metaphor] Street lines aren't repainted until there are a few major accidents on the road. It's an unfortunate fact of life. [/metaphor]
      • [metaphor] Street lines aren't repainted until there are a few major accidents on the road. It's an unfortunate fact of life. [/metaphor]

        That is not a "fact of life." Birth, death, and the need to consume food in between are facts of life.

        Street lines not being repainted until people are injured or killed, environmental laws being repealed to appease Baby Bush's oil buddies, and draconian laws that don't get fixed until the lives of thousands are ruined or threatened with ruination are NOT "facts of lif
        • by MrR0p3r ( 460183 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @09:00AM (#6587555) Homepage
          While I respect your relatively low user id #, your views are somewhat mislead. Understand that here in America (don't know if you're american or not) we have a rule by majority. Concentrate on that word..majority. It takes a larger group of people to get hurt or angry before something will be done about what is hurting them. Until now the RIAA had both the loudest and the most numerous voice, thankfully the right number of people have spoken up for some action to finally be taken.

          I will conceed that some corruption happens on the hill on a daily basis, it's gonna happen because some people feed on that. However, I will not conceed the point of view that all people who make a living running this country are corrupt. They do what is either in the best interest of their constituants, or they listen to those people when they change their minds (as a majority). He still needs to get votes to keep his job.

          On a side note, yes attorneys have a large voice in DC, but that's because they hire a ton of folks to do lobbying for them. It's not what you say, it's how many voices you say it with.
          • by op00to ( 219949 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @09:10AM (#6587643)
            Especially if those voices are tens or hundreds of thousands of little green George Washingtons!
            • The Bens have more influence than the Georges. Just ask Sen. Mitch McConnell(R- Kentucky) He's legalized bribery's best friend in Washington, and the one real obstacle to campaign finance reform.
          • by gerbache ( 540848 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @09:12AM (#6587663)
            Yes, we do have majority rule, but the entire point of a democracy is to allow majority rule while still protecting minority rights. Ever heard of the civil rights acts? Think the majority really felt strongly about that?

            Besides, we haven't had a true majority rule in anything other than congress in years. Presidential elections nowadays are rarely won by a true majority. Closer to the truth would be that a plurality rules in America, but even this is stretching it a bit considering that we have a representative form of government, so in reality we have a very small minority making most of our decisions (Congress, the President, etc.). Sure, we elect them, but only once every few years, and even then, no one pays attention to everything their congressmen do, so they're free to give lip service to the big issues and then do whatever they want. Therein lies one of the problems of a representative government.
            • the entire point of a democracy is to allow majority rule while still protecting minority rights.

              No, democracy (in its purest form) has not a damn thing to do with protecting minority rights. That is why we had to add a Bill of Rights to the Constitution, to protect the minority from the tyranical power pure-democracy allows the majority.

              Yeah, in the American verion of representative democracy, we protect minority rights, but that is because of the modifcations we've made to the idea of democracy not b

            • I am not an American but I seem to realize what every American should know but refuse to believe.
              Nowhere in the bill of Rights, Constitution or any other original documents is the term DEMOCRACY used. This is not afterthought but intentional. Your form of government is not a Democracy - period. It is a Constitution Republic. It may be turning into a democracy but it was never intended to be one. A democracy is 3 wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner. A Constitution ensures that the rights of o
          • On a side note, yes attorneys have a large voice in DC, but that's because they hire a ton of folks to do lobbying for them. It's not what you say, it's how many voices you say it with.

            With this line, you effectively made the guy's point for him. Your say in Washington is directly proportional to the number of lobbyists you can hire (i.e. how much money you throw around).
          • Go read Federalist No. 10 (Madison's comments on rule by factions). America is absolutely NOT a majority-rules country. There are plenty of countries that are, and if you want to live in one of them, I can send you a list. If america were a majority rules country, we would not need a constitution or bill of rights; only ballots. Slavery would still be legal, gays would be oppressed (even moreso than they currently are), we would have a National American Church of Christianity (which you'd be forced to b
    • Re:So what now? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by tommertron ( 640180 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:10AM (#6586746) Homepage Journal
      If the inquiry were to find something consequential, wouldn't the people being attacked by the RIAA have some grounds for a civil suit? Heck, even the support of a senator, if it doesn't go any further, might give good support for a class action lawsuit against the RIAA.

      I could see class action cases started by lawyers working pro bono for recovery of settlement money, if it was shown to be coerced, or punitive damages for abuse to privacy, or even harm to minors (as many on the RIAA's list appear to be minors.)

      When are we going to see a civil suit against the RIAA?

      tommer

    • by *weasel ( 174362 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:14AM (#6586766)
      if you think that the RIAA planned to -stop- suing after this first round, you're awfully naive.

      notice how every victory emboldens them? this last time they didn't even necessarily want to go to court, they were just looking for 2000 settlement checks, much like DirecTV.

      and did the gov't finally get its act together? or did we, their constituents, finally get -our- act together?

      if you want to protect your rights, how about you email your representatives and write your check to the EFF?

      you can rail against the system, or you can use your power as a voter to get things done.
      • by Craig Ringer ( 302899 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:39AM (#6586877) Homepage Journal
        I'm afraid that voters really don't seem to have much power, not anymore. Not when politicians have to take legal bribes to afford the advertising they need to get elected.

        So if you don't have the money to get them elected, it does them little good to listen to you.

        Depressing, but that's how it seems. At leasst from my perspective, not being a US resident and all.

        In Australia, it often feels like we may as well be a US state in terms of how strongly US events affect our own laws and politics, but we don't get a vote in the events that largely determine our eventual laws. As if the politicians think we're another US state...

        • like i'm saying, americans can either complain about the problems, or do something.

          currently our options to change things are:

          support candidates who support campaign finance reform
          make educated votes, and encourage everyone around you to do the same
          support the EFF to defend our liberties
          support the ACLU to defend our liberties
          or
          complain

          most people choose the latter; as we have something atrocious like 25% voter turnout.
        • Actually the voters in the United States have spoken. New laws are taking effect this year that bar anyone who is not a legal voter from contributing to a compaign. Legal voters are limited to $2000. Granted, folks like Bush can still raise millions of dollars for a federal campaign, but at least they have to get individuals involved.

          Of course the only reason it's coming up is because everyone was so disgusted with the 2000 election that anyone who is in office now knows they will not be if they vote against it.

          Kind of funny how democracy works. It may not turn on a dime, but it does manage a few quite miracles.

          • Wow... I'm impressed. Genuine political system reform - and just when it's most desparately needed.

            That'll hopefully actually FIX the one massive, gaping problem with the American political system (at least as seen from outside of it). No more "Senator for auction, bidding starts at $5m". Except they never seem to be that expensive, that's the sad part.

            Of course, Hollings will be out of a job, being "Mr Disney"... so sad :-P
    • Re:So what now? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by EvilTwinSkippy ( 112490 ) <yoda@nOSpAM.etoyoc.com> on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:43AM (#6586906) Homepage Journal
      You have to understand the our founding fathers designed the government to be a little slow, on purpose.

      In the Middle Ages, Lord would declare just about anything illegal that vaguely represented a threat to their power. Hell, before the American Revolution, England was so afraid of America becoming self-suffiecient (and thus not needing them anymore) they forbade metal tools from being imported or produced here.

      Having been on the recieving end of such treatment, our founding fathers decided that government should only tackle the bleedingly obvious problems. You can't put someone away for what the might do, only what they have done, or were in the process of doing.

      Frankly, seeing the mess that "preventative" lawmaking makes versus "reactive" lawmaking, I'd take "reactive" any day. The both have problems. But at least reactive lawmaking eventually fixes them. Preventative lawmaking ends up causing unforseen problems of its own.

      It may sound like I have my head in the sand, but look at the track record of the Prohibition and the War on Drugs. Now compare that to the hand off (until it was mature) approach congress took with the Internet. Somewhere in the middle would by Radio and Television, which needed regulation from the start because all parties are competing for limited chunks of the broadcast spectrum.

    • Re:So what now? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by mumblestheclown ( 569987 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @08:24AM (#6587227)
      I'm confused - are you saying that people shouldn't have lost their money / been expelled over blatant, often industrial-scale copyright infringement and doubtless simultaneous violation of a whole host of AUPs and ethical codes?

      Look - the problem is still 99% piracy and 1% RIAA overreach. it's nice that somebody is looking at the 1%, but don't forget that the major problem still is piracy.

      remember the slashdot excuse pre-crackdown: go after the offenders, not the technology. support going after the offenders.

      • Re:So what now? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by WhiteWolf666 ( 145211 ) <[sherwin] [at] [amiran.us]> on Friday August 01, 2003 @08:40AM (#6587372) Homepage Journal
        I'm confused - are you saying that people shouldn't have lost their money / been expelled over blatant, often industrial-scale copyright infringement and doubtless simultaneous violation of a whole host of AUPs and ethical codes?


        Look - the problem is still 99% piracy and 1% RIAA overreach. it's nice that somebody is looking at the 1%, but don't forget that the major problem still is piracy.

        I'm saying that the government should define the problem away. Copyright is a limited monopoly assigned by the government to artists for the purposes of promoting the arts. IMHO, copyright should be 2-3 years. Most P2P copyright infringement would vanish. Me, I'm extreme enough to say that there shouldn't be any copyright past 6 months, but thats not going to happen.


        Why is this not a copout? The notion of copyright was established in a different era, because of the costs associated with distribution and creation. Why would an artist produce anything if they couldn't capitalize on their works?


        Now, things have changed a bit. I think artists can support themselves on concert performances. Indeed, most artists HAVE too---they don't make much from CD sales. Copyright is not something assigned by god, nor do I consider it some sort of inalienable human right. Recognize copyright for what it is----a limited MONOPOLY on a product assigned by the government.


        Given that monopoly is no longer a necessary condition for the production of music, the monopoly only IMPEDES efficent economic distribution. Why? Because P2P, without cost (because distribution costs are borne by the P2P users) to artists, is the MOST efficent means of distribution currently avaliable.


        If the Government eliminated copyright on music tomorrow, artists would still make music. And the world would keep spinning.


        Indeed, what we would probably see would be extremely similar to what we have now----Where small and mid-level bands made their money on live performances, and large bands would make their money on live performances and sales of memorablia. Heck, if artist X produced a REALLY good album, sold it in a nice case, included a book of lyrics and information, wouldn't you buy it? I would.


        Fact is, copyright on music is an outdated notion. So outdated, that technologies like Freenet WILL end it, without truely draconian government legislation. Like mandated palladium on steroids. Like banning all 'old' non-palladium computers. And I just don't see that happening.


        Why won't that happen? Go look up the size of the music industry. Then look up the size of the home electronics industry. 'Nuff said



        Good riddance, RIAA

        Resistance is Futile.
      • Re:So what now? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by ATMAvatar ( 648864 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @09:51AM (#6588005) Journal
        Every person faced with a lawsuit I've read about thus far has been forced to settle, whether they thought they were innocent or not. Piracy may be a problem, but giving the RIAA the ability to easily extort money from people at will seems worse than the problem it tries to solve, especially if you consider that the RIAA has gone after people not only for piracy, but for writing simple search engines and posting their own self-made mp3s on p2p networks.

        For example, my brother has his own band and writes his own music. He's already gotten cease and desist letters for putting some of his band's music up on Kazaa. Were he to have kept the music on Kazaa, and the RIAA to follow-through with their threat, he would be forced to settle, even through he has every right to distribute those mp3s.

        The big problem I see is that the RIAA's lawsuits are less about going after pirates than they are about getting as much money out of those people that probably won't fight back. The new battlecry is "We know you can't afford a legal battle with us. Fork over or perish."
        • Re:So what now? (Score:3, Interesting)

          by Reziac ( 43301 )
          In addition to what gurps_npc said, doesn't the RIAA's C&D threat against your brother amount to an illegal restraint of trade?

          IANAL, but my thoughts on a response: your brother should file copyright on his songs so he has clear and established rights, then take the C&D letter down to the district attorney's office, or whoever handles this sort of thing, and see if he can file a *criminal* complaint against the RIAA. That makes pursuing the case the government's job.

    • Re:So what now? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by macdaddy357 ( 582412 )
      It is good that Senator Coleman is getting involved, but he doesn't understand some things. Copyright infringement is not theft. They are different, and file trading should not be considered copyright infringement, it's fair use. File trading networks are the new radio, and end users don't have to pay to listen to the radio. We can punish the RIAA ourselves without waiting for a Senate that unamimously passed the DMCA to do it by not buying CDs. [dontbuycds.org] Boycott the recording industry.
  • he's right. (Score:5, Funny)

    by hatrisc ( 555862 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:06AM (#6586724) Homepage
    though, i support file sharing, i agree with him on the fact that the punishment fits the crime. since there is no crime, no punishment. end of story.
    • You're wrong on two counts:
      • File sharing is piracy, and hence, stealing, which does indeed make it illegal.
      • The punishment does not fit the crime.

      The bottom line is, it is against the law to steal stuff, and pirating anything, be it software, music, or movies, is stealing. That's just the way it is.

      I am, however, perfectly willing to promote and even perpetuate the robbing blind of the RIAA and the major labels until such a time as they either go out of business, or figure out that they need to start

      • Re:he's right. (Score:2, Informative)

        You're wrong on one count:

        • The crime is copyright infringement, not "stealing."

        If "copyright infringement" is too many syllables for you, use a less loaded term like sharing. But please do not help the RIAA propagate its spin. It's doing fine on its own.

      • Re:he's right. (Score:4, Informative)

        by Dashing Leech ( 688077 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @08:09AM (#6587084)
        You are wrong on three accounts:
        • File sharing is not illegal, unless you are violating a copyright. For instance, I can share all the files I've created or anything in the public domain.
        • Sharing copyrighted files is not stealing, it is copyright infringement. This is an important distinction. Copying someone's work is not the same thing as depriving them of property, and is not handled by the same laws. At best, some people (e.g., RIAA) try to argue it is analagous to stealing, but it is not the same thing.
        • Copyright infringement is generally not a crime. It generally comes under civil law, not criminal law. The RIAA is suing under civil law, not pressing charges under criminal law. (Which again, makes it distinct from stealing.) However, under certain circumstances it can become a criminal offense, usually when the violation is intentional and for profit.
  • Since legally coipyright infringment damage can only me measured in economic terms of lost sales..

    How can RIAA claim any loss in salse when the people sharing files do not have the dispoable income to purchase Cds in the firs tplace?

    So where is the damage, again RIAA?

    Its about like RIAA's position on piracy sales outside the US in that the CDs go for about $5 or less and yet RIAA claims loss at ful price not the actual money exchanged..

    to me the actual money that was exchanged is the legal monetary da
    • How can RIAA claim any loss in salse when the people sharing files do not have the dispoable income to purchase Cds in the firs tplace?

      mmmmmkay, they spent their last few cents on their broadband connection and huge hard drives so they can't possibly afford CDs... RIGHT.

      maybe they should seek damages from the people who get the "disposable income" instead, like pizza deliverers and breweries? ;)

      o me the actual money that was exchanged is the legal monetary damage of the piracy not invented figures..

    • by GammaTau ( 636807 ) <jni@iki.fi> on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:29AM (#6586831) Homepage Journal

      How can RIAA claim any loss in salse when the people sharing files do not have the dispoable income to purchase Cds in the firs tplace?

      Their business is based on the distribution of music and charging money for it. If someone else distributes music that is covered by the exclusive right the law has granted them (copyright), it weakens their business. It's not "one illegal download = one lost sale" as they like to think, but it's also deceptive to say "illegal downloads = no impact on business".

      Illegal distribution of copyrighted material hurts the business of the corporations the RIAA presents. I don't really care of their business and I'd rather want to legalize this currently illegal distribution but that's different from saying it wouldn't hurt them.

      • one illegal download = one lost sale
        Actually they probably argue that if you share one song, 10 people download it and they will all share the song in turn, making it available to 100 other people, and so on. That way, they can easily justify their $150.000 per shared song, and that's why they tend to count the shared songs, not how often they are downloaded.
    • Its about like RIAA's position on piracy sales outside the US in that the CDs go for about $5 or less and yet RIAA claims loss at ful price not the actual money exchanged..

      Of course they are claiming full price, they did lose the full price... the pirated CD might only sell for $5, but since it's pirated, nothing is going to the publishing company of the music! It's an illegal copy!

    • by mumblestheclown ( 569987 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @08:48AM (#6587448)
      How the hell is such tripe "insightful?" Will you even spend a second thinking before you post such crap?

      Let's say a person with zero assets downloads such music. How does this hurt the coprightholders?

      Some examples:

      • It signals to others (by expanding the amount of traffic on the pirate network) that the music is available free of charge. i don't mean this from a technical standpoint, but from a sociological one. "why should I pay when so and so got it free?" in aggregate, the result is lost sales.
      • the act removes the copyright's holders ability to present its art as it sees fit. this lessens the overall perception of value, thus lessening the future potential incomestram for copyrightholders.
      • the person with zero assets now may acquire assets later. however, there is a reinforcement effect - if he gets away with piracy now, he'll likely think it's ok in the future.

      here is a very crucial point:

      THE RIAA SUING COLLEGE KIDS IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO BECAUSE THE KIDS HAVE NO ASSETS.

      It shows that the RIAA is interested in STOPPING THE BEHAVIOR, not collecting damages. Yes, they might sue for 10B, but they'll never collect. What they are clearly doing by going after asset-less individuals and getting outrageous-sounding judgements is SENDING A MESSAGE. It's the RIGHT message - RESPECT OTHER PEOPLE'S COPYRIGHTS. The US produces a hell of a lot of IP in arts and sciences compared to, say, China largely because we have well-structured IP systems.

      Are there excesses? Surely. Is the mickey mouse extension, well, mickey mouse? absolutely. but is copyrightholders going after music-infringers in order to send a message that such behavior will not be tolerated wrong? absolutely not.

      the music industry is trying damn hard to provide music in digital form now - but what's the problem? the problem is that everybody's running around trying to figure out how to do this while not basically 'giving away the store' given how easy digitial redistribution is. iTunes has been a success, though it is mac only. others have had less success because they are either toe-in-the-water ventures with limited playlists or because the music is overly encumbered with DRM. but why is this so?

      BECAUSE OF PIRACY!

      if there were no idiots out there like you trying to justify blatant piracy on any number of grounds, that is to say, this whole cloud of pseudo-justifications for widescale copyright infringement and a general climate that tolerates such behaviour, we'd RIGHT NOW have 50c music dowloads as far as the eye could see.

      we'd have LESS middlemen, MORE choices of artists, and BETTER digital portability if it wasn't for the fact that every self-styled h4xor seems to think that he is a) smarter and b) better than the law, and even if the law isn't so bad, he isn't going to get caught anyway. THAT is what's keeping a flourishing of online music from happening.. a climate that tolerates or even encourages piracy.

      --- END OF RANT ---

    • How can RIAA claim any loss in salse when the people sharing files do not have the dispoable income to purchase Cds in the firs tplace?

      You're suggesting that people who can afford computers and internet connections can't afford a $15 CD?
      • by KingJoshi ( 615691 ) <slashdot@joshi.tk> on Friday August 01, 2003 @09:43AM (#6587935) Homepage
        You're suggesting that people who can afford computers and internet connections can't afford a $15 CD?

        I don't endorse copyright infringement/piracy so I don't want this to be construed the wrong way. I've done it in the past but have stopped.

        Anyhow, your statment is absurd. One can allocate resources for education (computer, internet, books), housing, food, bare essentials and not any any left over for movies or music. Being able to afford a computer does not imply being able to afford $20 DVDs or $15 CDs.

  • RIGHTS? (Score:5, Funny)

    by darkmayo ( 251580 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:07AM (#6586730)
    The only right good ole Mericans have is the right to pay for the new Metallica.. and if they don't like it then let the fury of RIAA rain upon them!!!

    oh sorry was channelling Hilary Rosen for a minute... ewww.. I feel dirty now.
  • by Sir Haxalot ( 693401 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:07AM (#6586734)
    He believes the RIAA's tactics may not be taking into consideration the damage they do to innocent people
    I'd be more intrested in questioning the legality of the RIAA's 'tactics'.
  • by xThinkx ( 680615 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:07AM (#6586735) Homepage

    I'm not from Minnesota, but if I was, I'd suddenly be sparked to start a massive campaigning effort for this guy.

    Regardless of what side of the p2p issue you're on, you have to admit that this guy is the first Senator in a LONG time to openly investigate possible infringements on the rights of the common Joe by big business. With so many of our senators and representatives in the pockets of corporations, this man deserves the utmost respect, and if you are from Minnnesota, your vote.

    Now, on to my side of the p2p battle, this is just another sign that the RIAA is eventually going to eat it for their practices. Senators hate to be wrong

    • by Anonymous Coward
      Truth is, apart from this one benevolent act, Coleman is kind of a pud and is completely in the pockets of corporations, esp. ADM. He replaced Paul Wellstone who did "investigate possible infringements on the rights of the common Joe by big business." Don't delude yourself.
    • Norm Coleman's big political break was getting elected as Mayor in St. Paul, Minnesota as a *democrat*. During his first term he switched to being a Republican and was elected to a second term.

      He was a major booster of St. Paul during his terms, which really had slid downhill in terms of its downtown. He worked hard to get a stadium built to ensure an NHL expansion franchise and to provide subsidies for new buildings to entice major corporations to relocate there, his biggest success being the luring of
  • well. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Meeble ( 633260 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:08AM (#6586738) Journal

    to answer the first post - it took this long because now is the perfect opportunity for a politician to finally speak out and garner some public support for their election given the latest round of subpoena's has indicted innocent victims or third party individuals who were a matter of circumstance. It's best summed up in this paragraph:

    >>> "The industry seems to have adopted a 'shotgun' approach that could potentially cause injury and harm to innocent people who may simply have been victims of circumstance, or possessed a lack of knowledge of the rules related to digital sharing of files," Coleman wrote. >>>

    Before it was students etc they were filiong against and the claims were pretty justified - there wasn't much leeway for a politician to step up - now there is a distinct case to be made and popular support to be garnered from it.

    • Re:well. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Blue Stone ( 582566 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:25AM (#6586815) Homepage Journal
      "Before it was students etc they were filing against and the claims were pretty justified..."

      Hardly. The student who wrote a search engine; the hard-up students "cheekily" bootlegging some music, being hit for their lifesavings?
      Not what I'd call "justified."
      Now say that about people "pirating for profit," and I might agree.

      The claims the RIAA made for damages were and are, outrageous and unjust.

      • Re:well. (Score:3, Informative)

        by Meeble ( 633260 )

        you are correct about the search enghine student, I was being vague; I apologize. I meant in the initial round of filings the sharers who were sharing 5,000 + music files there wasn't much leeway with.

        unfortunately in the search engine case, there wasn't as much media hype because it simply affected only that one student. The tech world was pretty informed on it, however the 'mass sheep' were not for the most part. This case is completely different because it affects so many and is a big media story.

        alb

  • by MImeKillEr ( 445828 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:08AM (#6586739) Homepage Journal
    ..there are no innocent people. They could give a flying flip who gets crushed under the wheels of their 'machine'.

    Also, from the article:

    "Theft is theft, but in this country we don't cut off your arm or fingers for stealing," said Sen. Norm Coleman, a Minnesota Republican who was a rock roadie in the 1960s.

    And yet, all Coleman wants is to see a copy of the subpoenas & any measures the RIAA is taking to ensure that 'innocent people' aren't getting snagged.

    How about doing something useful, Senator? How about imposing a cap on the amount of damages the RIAA can levy against its victims? You're not at all concerned that they're claiming damages upto $15,000 per song? Is 'Oops! I did it again' really fscking worth $15,000 to anyone?

    This is just another example of a gubment windbag trying to grab some press for being the 'good guy' while not actually doing shit for his constituents.
    • by tgma ( 584406 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:39AM (#6586880)
      The fact that this is a daily topic on Slashdot, with a wide spectrum of opinions, suggests that this is a grey area. It's therefore asking a bit much to insist that he start following your agenda without doing some research. Or is it a good thing when politicians react in a knee-jerk fashion without looking at the facts?

      He may well be a gubment windbag (the fact that he is a senator significantly increases this possibility) but at least, for the time being, on this issue, he's OUR gubment windbag. The pro-file sharing lobby has been screaming that Capitol Hill is in the pockets of the **AAs, so it's nice to see that one of them isn't. And at least calling for information is a warning shot across the bows of the RIAA that they will be expected to conform to the letter of the law. I'm relieved to see this, because the tide had been running firmly in the other direction, what with the DMCA, and the Patriot Act, and all. It's nice to see the elected representatives doing something on behalf of the people that they are representing, even if it isn't exactly what the file sharers would like him to do.
  • by Rosco P. Coltrane ( 209368 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:12AM (#6586755)
    At the end of the article:

    "I must confess, I downloaded Napster, and then Napster was found to be the wrong thing," he said. "I stopped."

    So, he's a former roadie, and a Senator, and he waited until the justice declared Napster the wrong thing to stop using it? when he downloaded songs off Napster, shouldn't he have sensed that guilt that should have come from his being a former roadie, and his current position as (supposedly moral) senator?

    So yeah, go Senator, but I wonder if he's not just another file swapper with a louder voice than everybody else, who tries to hide the fact behind "I recognize the very legitimate concerns about copyright infringement" statements, so as to not be labeled as a pirate by the RIAA.
  • by pschmerg ( 621240 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:15AM (#6586772)
    I think one of the reasons nothing has been done before about the RIAA's ability to walk all over people's rights is because none of the higher ups understand. The main reason why the RIAA has so much power is because the people who pass our laws don't realize they have it. Our congressmen/senators are on average in their 50s, 60, 70s. Not to stereotype too badly, but most of the older folks in the US know the basics of email, word maybe, and quicken. The way the RIAA approached the whole file sharing fiasco is similar to if someone who doesn't know much about cars takes their car to the shop to get fixed, and on top of it the mechanic slaps on $2500 of fony repairs. The way everything is now the RIAA will always be right, and the average person going up against them will lose. Bad situation, but that's the way it is.
    • It's called "write a letter to your Senator and Representative." You see, there is a whole lot that they do not understand. Their job is to listen to you, the people who elected them.

      I can't tell you how many times on CSPAN I've heard a congressman cite a letter he/she recieved from a constituant. I have seen first hand how a letter to a Representative or a Senator can clear up some confusion about beuracratic issues.

      Indeed if you ask any one of these folks who tell you that Government doesn't respond t

  • I'm thinking... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by miketang16 ( 585602 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:16AM (#6586776) Journal
    class-action lawsuit against the RIAA by the innocent people caught in their massive web.

    Fight fire with fire.
    • No, not a class action suit.

      The only people who make money from it are the lawyers, and the companies involved get away with a comparitive slap on the wrists.

      Everyone who was wronged by the RIAA should take them to small claims court. Individually. They will either have to field a lawyer for each case, or loose by default.

      The Legal System does not discriminate against who it screws.

  • by hype7 ( 239530 ) <u3295110@noSPam.anu.edu.au> on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:17AM (#6586781) Journal
    Is how the RIAA rolled Verizon. That was where things really started heading down the tubes - any idiot could walk into a courthouse, lodge a form with a court clerk and the process is started.

    There should be a higher burden of proof - a judge should be looking over it. Or, you'll clog the court system, as is happening with the RIAA and it's 900+ subpoenas. It would also encourage them to go after the serious people (those making money through piracy) as opposed to the college kids and grandparents (who will normally just roll over instantly due to potential legal costs).

    However, I don't think it's going to take them much longer to hit critical mass for "people fucked off". Then it'll start to get interesting again. No more Mickey Mouse Preservation Acts, etc then: they'll blow the goodwill the $$$ in politicians pockets bought them.

    -- james
    • by tgma ( 584406 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:44AM (#6586914)
      ...they were able to roll Congress into passing the DMCA. Verizon had no choice but to comply, because the DMCA forces them to give up the addresses of file sharers. (Or was it the Online Child Protection Act - apologies if it was). IIRC, Verizon and other ISPs lobbied against the DMCA, and were unsuccessful. Once it was passed, they had to obey the Act, because they didn't have the option of retreating to Montana and pretending that it didn't exist.
    • At least that's how I understood it. The EFF case history [eff.org] seems to suggest that this is the case unless that page is out of date.

      I also was under the impression that this was likely to end up in the Supreme Court because it's an issue of Congress stomping on the Constitution with the passage of the DMCA.

      If it does go that far, the RIAA may be sorry for their tactics.
    • by Heisenbug ( 122836 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @08:22AM (#6587211)
      "any idiot could walk into a courthouse, lodge a form with a court clerk and the process is started."

      Wait a minute. Could *I* do this? Could I perhaps inadvertantly target, say, certain industry associations, because my spidering software had mistakenly identified them as distributors of my IP? Could I then hold them to the same standards of proof that they are holding random Kazaa users, and force their lawyers to establish a precident, as the defendants, for just what you have to show in court before you can win such a case?

      Seriously, it seems that there's a nice legal hack to be had in creatively abusing the ability to send subpeonas without a judge. Could someone who IAL suggest some possibilities?
  • by Phoenix666 ( 184391 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:17AM (#6586782)
    send him a contribution, or just a kind letter thanking him for his efforts. Then explain to him that copyright infringement is not theft; it's just copyright infringement. Then if you get that far, gently suggest that content companies have bastardized the entire concept of copyright law, and that it should be done away with.
  • by Connectmc ( 650663 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:18AM (#6586783)
    Here's the new age strategy for getting rich :

    1. Record/buy copyrights to a song which would otherwise sell a couple of thousand copies at most.

    2. leak it out somehow, wait for those few thousand people to download it.

    3. Sue these guys and recover $15,000 from them each.

    4. Profit???

    Much better than actually selling good songs, isnt it? Maybe this is why Britney & gang were promoted endlessly...:)

    • 2. leak it out somehow, wait for those few thousand people to download it.

      3. Sue these guys and recover $15,000 from them each.

      The problem is that they don't seem to be suing the downloaders, only the people sharing the music. That's actually the only sane way to do it and is much more effective at combating piracy. If everyone stops sharing files then the network collapses and their goal is achieved.

  • by magsymp ( 562489 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:19AM (#6586788)
    I've decided to stop swapping music files and go back to stabbing hookers.
  • by Lawst ( 242846 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:21AM (#6586794)
    "It will confirm that our actions are entirely consistent with the law as enacted by the U.S. Congress and interpreted by the courts," the RIAA said in a statement issued to The Associated Press.

    In other news, the RIAA has cut off the hands of 75 people today in Iran for downloading Busta Rhymes songs.

    In a statement issued by the RIAA in Iranian newspapers...

    "It will confirm that our actions are entirely consistent with the laws as enacted by the Iranian government and interpreted by the courts". The statement continues, "Yes, we realize many of our artists publish songs that support killing policemen, and raping and beating women, but downloading copyrighted material is wrong and totally unjustified!!"

  • Keep in mind that the form requests that Minnesotans identify themselves I suppose to let his staff triage and prioritize his email. However, that's better than a lot of congresspeople's sites, which tend to make a person feel that they don't want to hear from anyone outside of their state or district.
    • Keep in mind that the form requests that Minnesotans identify themselves I suppose to let his staff triage and prioritize his email.

      This demonstrates that Sen. Norm Coleman's first priority is serving his constituents.

      And let's just say that my 5 minute cursory review of the RIAA website [riaa.org] did not turn up the state in which RIAA is incorporated. I do not think it happens to be Minnesota...

      Something tells me that if it really came down to an "unsuspecting grandparent" vs RIAA, Coleman would come down

  • by EvilTwinSkippy ( 112490 ) <yoda@nOSpAM.etoyoc.com> on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:27AM (#6586821) Homepage Journal
    I'm glad to see someone asking the tough questions. The whole point of copyright law is for a company to have the means to persue others for unauthorized duplication.

    Unfortunately with computer technology the very act of playback requires duplication.

    The copyright law foreseeing that things are often copied on a small scale by people tossed in a clause for Fair Use. Fair Use was OK when folks copied tracks of the radio, or put together custom casettes. The problem is that people are doing this Fair Use cut and paste en masse.

    We ran into the same issue when the Radio was developed. As a solution we developed compulsory licensing. Everyone who owns a radio station (and hence is easily tracked down owing to their FCC license) pays a flat fee to AASCAP or similar organizations. They also track how often the play what songs, and the compulsory licence folks divvy the spoils amoung the folks who got the most air time.

    The problem with the Internet is that you don't need a license. Tracking down individual "broadcasters" is a little difficult.

    Now the RIAA does have a gripe. But their hands aren't clean either. They have been pushing for exorbinately high fees for internet broadcast rights. They have also been fighting the compulsory licensing scheme for internet file sharing.

    The answer has yet to be found. Grabbing congresses' attention is a good sign.

    • With respect to radio I've heard performers on independent labels complain vehemently about the RIAA as broadcasters have to pay them royalties for all tracks played but there's no requirement for the RIAA to track down and recompense the artists who aren't their members.
    • Now the RIAA does have a gripe. But their hands aren't clean either. They have been pushing for exorbinately high fees for internet broadcast rights. They have also been fighting the compulsory licensing scheme for internet file sharing.

      IIRC, the RIAA is paid out of the licensing proceeds.

      I might also add that everyone is still paying a surcharge that was originally slapped on compact discs to pay for "research & development costs." We also pay surcharges on blank media, do we not? After 20 years

  • by Picass0 ( 147474 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:28AM (#6586825) Homepage Journal

    Interesting that his party affiliation didn't make it into the article. If he were a democrat fighting the good fight it would have been mentioned.
    • You know, I got karma to burn so mod me down too, but this guy is right. When Ashcroft does something stupid, it's "Ashcroft the Republican is at it again!!", but when a Republican does something that our little gang here tends to agree with, no party affiliation is given. It's not just this article, it's very consistant. And the converse is true as well - if a Democrat does something idiotic, he's spared the idignity of embarrassing his party here on slashdot because it's kindly left out, but if in thi
  • by Rogerborg ( 306625 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:37AM (#6586864) Homepage

    And so on. Interesting opinion. Unfortunately, it's incorrect.

    Supreme Court Justice Harry Blackmun back, Dowling v. the United States: 'It follows that interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion or fraud. The Copyright Act even employs a separate term of art to define one who misappropriates a copyright: "Anyone who violates any of the exclusive rights of the copyright owner," that is, anyone who trespasses into his exclusive domain by using or authorizing the use of the copyrighted work in one of the five ways set forth in the statute, "is an infringer of the copyright."' [oreillynet.com]

    I know that this is playing to the gallery, but if we're simply going to redefine terms to suit ourselves, how about try a bit of it ourselves. For example:

    1. Copyright infringement becomes theft
    2. Citizens - sorry, consumers - becomes suspected thieves

    Then we get a go:

    1. Cookies become spy-bugs
    2. Closed source becomes untrustable
    3. capitalism becomes plutocracy
    4. republic becomes oligarchy
    5. Congress person and RIAA/MPAA become whore, moron and/or mobster.

    Not perhaps technically accurate, but hey, they started it.

  • Conspiracy Theory... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by kenthorvath ( 225950 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:40AM (#6586886)
    Point 1: The new CEO of the RIAA is a former staff member of former Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, a repulican from TN.

    Point 2: The RIAA is seeking the close assistance of republicans with point 1.

    Point 3: Sen. Norm Coleman is a republican.

    Point 4: The parties mentioned in (3), merely question the methods that the RIAA used to get their subpoenas and whether or not the penalties are affecting "innocent" people. He does not think that P2P is legally or morally OK to use. In fact, he calls the copyright infringement "theft", which clearly it is not.

    Theory: RIAA uses its connections to the Republican party to pass new laws, all the while the unsuspecting consumer is egging the republicans on because they are "talking a good talk". While I'm optimistic at the sound of this inquiry, I won't hold my breath for a favorable outcome, and I am suspicious of Coleman's motives.

    • by avdp ( 22065 ) *
      How is it "clearly" not theft? You can't make statements like that without explaining a bit. It's hardly an acknowledged fact, even on slashdot.
    • by deanj ( 519759 )
      So, by this theory, anyone getting in bed with a particular political party shows proof that political part is not to be trusted?

      That's pretty interesting, considering that the head of RIAA, the group that's been causing all of these problems so far, is a supporter and contributor to the Democrat party:

      Check out this link:

      right here [tray.com]

      And type "Recording Industry" into the link. Guess what? It's Hilary Rosen contributing to Gephart's campaign, Kerry's campaign and the like.

      Like it or not, this isn'

  • by Warpedcow ( 180300 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:49AM (#6586949) Homepage Journal
    Send you ideas, thanks, whatever to Norm here:

    http://www.senate.gov/~coleman/contact/index.cfm

    This is what I sent, short and simple:

    Thank you for taking a stand against the ridiculously strong-armed tactics that the RIAA is taking against innocent people. $15K to $250K per song is "Cruel and Unusual"
  • and ignorance of the law is a crime against civility.
  • Ironic (Score:5, Insightful)

    by JRSiebz ( 691639 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @08:02AM (#6587032)
    Isn't it funny that you'll recieve a lesser punishment for getting caught shoplifting a cd, then you would for getting caught sharing one song?

    Guess we'll just have to get our music old school style. I wanna ask Winona Ryder for some tips.

  • by ajs318 ( 655362 ) <sd_resp2NO@SPAMearthshod.co.uk> on Friday August 01, 2003 @08:09AM (#6587083)
    Why not write to your elected representatives and propose a bill to limit the term of copyright to five years from the receipt of the first royalty payment, or five years from the date of publication if no royalty payments are rceived within that time, after which the work enters the public domain. This term should not be extensible under any circumstances and, if any technological measures are used to prevent copying, at least one unprotected copy should be placed in escrow with the relevant authorities in order that the work can actually be placed in the public domain. Circumvention of protection on a work which has, or should have, already entered into the public domain should be explicitly permitted.

    The whole idea of copyright is to provide a limited term of exclusivity so you can make money from your work, in return for the promise that one day, your work will enter the public domain. Frankly, five years should be enough time for anyone to make a fair profit {which is why I think it should be counted from the receipt of the first royalty payment}; and, if you haven't made any money out of it in that time, you're never going to, so you should cut your losses.

    I'll maybe rewrite this in more bill-like terms and repost it, if anyone else thinks it's a good idea.
  • by karlandtanya ( 601084 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @08:15AM (#6587146)
    It works. That's all that matters, right?
  • by jabber01 ( 225154 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @09:07AM (#6587625)
    I can see "as a former roadie, speakers are heavy, but the groupies make up for it". But the logic of "as a former roadie, I feel qualified to talk about the motivations of a Senator dealing with the legal issues of the music industry" somehow eludes me.
  • by teamhasnoi ( 554944 ) * <teamhasnoi@yahoo. c o m> on Friday August 01, 2003 @09:47AM (#6587961) Journal
    Norm's Children that is [wired.com]

    I was wondering when this would come out...

    Coleman, who has two children, admitted that he's faced the issue himself as a parent.

    "I've had this problem in my family," Coleman said. "I'm sure my children have used file-sharing programs."

    "I have confessed to using Napster," he said, adding that he does not use any file-sharing programs anymore.

    Sure, Norm. You just downloaded 'Frampton Comes Alive' and 'Thriller' from my FTP server last week....

  • by mackman ( 19286 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @09:48AM (#6587977)
    So what, the RIAA doesn't get to take my money, just make good quality color copies of it?
  • write your senator (Score:3, Insightful)

    by capoccia ( 312092 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @10:24AM (#6588391) Journal
    as i live in ohio, one of my senators (voinovich) is on this investigation subcomittee. i sent him this letter (through the online form) to encourage him to support coleman's efforts:
    I read today that Senator Norm Coleman has launched an inquiry into the use of legal action by the Recording Industry of America Association (RIAA).

    http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/brea king_news/6428142.htm [kansascity.com]

    As you are my Senator and also on the Inquiry subcommitte that Sen. Coleman chairs, I would urge you to support his efforts.

    There is plenty of room for abuse when a corporation uses legal bullying to act as law enforcement. The rights of the accused can be circumvented and innocent people can be dragged into a situation where it is very costly to defend themselves.

    With the RIAA purportedly filing 75 subpoenas each day against users of online filetrading software and their Internet Service Providers for copyright infringement, there should be some level of accountability.
  • by Cloudgatherer ( 216427 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @11:57AM (#6589315)
    I really wish someone would ask that question. Seriously, the 'crime' is copying data. The punishment is a 150K fine per instance (max). Seems *very* steep for an act that could be done accidentally.

    Take this a step further, who made those laws? Content providers, naturally. So, of course it's illegal, they made it that way as well as the steep penalty! Now they attempt to apply this to Joe Consumer and we are seeing the reults.

    As far as theft vs. infringement, the distinction is justified. Theft displaces wealth. While P2P may hurt record sales, it does not 'displace' money from the RIAA.

    Good works will generate revenue. Crap will not. Unfortunately, there is very little to preview. To watch a movie, you have to pay. The movie might be really bad, and not worth the money. However, you have to pay money just to find that out. Pirate the movie and pay a tremendous fine or go to jail. Talk about a trap.
  • by Nom du Keyboard ( 633989 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @03:02PM (#6591161)
    Not a single lawsuit in the coming promised mass wave of them has yet to be filed, and we already have all this noise, heat, and light.

    So is the RIAA hoping everyone will get exhausted by their one-step-at-a-time process to get to that point...

    ...or is an order of magnitude greater outrage going to hit when the actual lawsuit filings start to happen?

    And what if people actually do start going to court over this? Lots of people?

    There's a rough ride ahead boys.

A committee takes root and grows, it flowers, wilts and dies, scattering the seed from which other committees will bloom. -- Parkinson

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