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Ghost In The Shell 2: Innocence 344

timbloid writes "I spotted on Ain't it cool news that Mamoru Oshii's new anime Innocence Ghost In The Shell 2's website is now open! The trailer is beautiful! But I can't help thinking a translated version is some time off from the 2004 Japanese release... Maybe it would be faster for me to learn Japanese?"
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Ghost In The Shell 2: Innocence

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  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 04, 2003 @02:10PM (#7388159)
    Just wait for the universal Esperanto version.
  • Translations... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by dolo666 ( 195584 ) * on Tuesday November 04, 2003 @02:10PM (#7388160) Journal
    "Maybe it would be faster for me to learn Japanese?"

    I think it's better to watch a film in the language it's created in []. Who knows if the translation is correct? Isn't it better to hear the real actors, and listen to the sounds they make, as opposed to some translated version?

    A large piece of the meaning and fluidity of a film is lost in translation.

    I can remember sitting around a table of French friends of mine, not knowing a word of French myself, and it was still interesting to listen to them, like a fly on a wall. You don't know what's being said, but the experience has it's own merits.

    There's something really cool about watching anime in Japanese that gives a kind of simplicity to the plot and idea of the film. Because you have no idea what's being said, you can kind of guess, and that adds some of your immagination to the mix. It delivers a kind of Zen, IMHO. And with the visuals in the trailer of Ghost In the Shell 2, who cares what language it's in!! Gimmie!! Gimmie!!
    • by Anonymous Coward

      I think it's better to watch a film in the language it's created in... A large piece of the meaning and fluidity of a film is lost in translation.

      But if you can't understand a single word, everything is lost in the translation.

    • Re:Translations... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Psx29 ( 538840 ) on Tuesday November 04, 2003 @02:33PM (#7388405)
      I happen to think there are some movies which can be enjoyed without knowing a single word of dialog. Ghost in the shell is not one of these. The questions it poses about life and what it means to be human are something that you really need to hear and understand to enjoy.
    • by Sexy Commando ( 612371 ) on Tuesday November 04, 2003 @02:36PM (#7388441) Journal

      The following link [] should give you a kick start on learning Japanese, uh, I mean English.

    • Re:Translations... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Yokaze ( 70883 ) on Tuesday November 04, 2003 @02:57PM (#7388688)
      > Who knows if the translation is correct?

      Well, hopefully the translator.

      > A large piece of the meaning and fluidity of a film is lost in translation.

      Well, it depends, who guessed it, on the translator, and the voice actors.

      IRC, there are even some films out there, which were more successful in a different language, because of the translation.

      The translation is a work in itself, which, depending on the ability of the translator, can be a shallow copy of the original, or even better than the original (Especially, if the original is of poor quality)

      I can undestand the other reason, but how can you prefer the original in a language you do not understand over a translated version, on the reason of loss in fluidity and meaning?

      I prefer to watch english films in the original, although I have some problems understanding the spoken word. But still, I have the feeling, I'm not quite getting some details of the film. Most problematic are jokes. Partly because of cultural discrepancies, partly because I'm busy understanding the language.

      In other words, I'm experience a loss in meaning and fluidity. And I guess that will always be the case, unless one lived a while in that nation, so one has a better grip of the language and culture.

      A grip, a translator surely has.

      Considering the two or three english dubs of Anime, I've seen, I can understand, why some people are avoiding them. But I wouldn't consider Ghost in the Shell as one of them.

      > And with the visuals in the trailer of Ghost In the Shell 2, who cares what language it's in!!

      Well, as long it isn't Polish, I'm fine with it :).
      Considering the previous Ghost-in-the-Shell film, I'd say it'd be a loss missing the monologues.
    • Wow...crazy. To suggest that a full-grown adult should go to all the trouble of learning a language, particularly one as devlishly tricky as Japanese, merely in order to watch cartoon shows?
    • Re:Translations... (Score:3, Insightful)

      by mblase ( 200735 )
      I think it's better to watch a film in the language it's created in. Who knows if the translation is correct?

      Somehow, I think that if you were a Spanish-speaking native who wanted to enjoy television and movies as a new citizen of the United States, you wouldn't be quite so elitist.
    • Just an example of how this is correct, in Spirited Away (Sen to Chihiro no Kamikakushi) there is this scene where they are driving and there are small shrines on the ground next to the car.

      Chihiro asks her mom what they are, and her mom responds, in the English translation, "Some people believe spirits live there."

      Whoever translated that line should have been shot on the spot, or at least blacklisted. It totally missed the whole point of that dialog, which is to show that Chihiro's mom is 'hip and trend
    • Re:Translations... (Score:3, Insightful)

      by eatenn ( 572604 )
      The problem with translated movies is that there's usually a different voice director than the original director of the movie. This doesn't seem like a huge departure, but it's especially important in animated films. A different director and different actors can change the subtext of what's being said, and any script that doesn't exercise subtext is usually bad writing.

      Dialog is also sometimes stretched or summarized to match the talking heads on screen... ie, in Japanese it might take 10 seconds of screen
  • by Godeke ( 32895 ) * on Tuesday November 04, 2003 @02:11PM (#7388174)
    I love the original ghost because it convinces many who didn't think they would like anime that it isn't "just a cartoon". Although today anime is becoming "cool", when I was in high school it was pretty fringe. When ghost came out, I showed it to quite a few people who didn't know what anime was, and most had a much better appreciation for the fact that "cartoons" could tell a compelling story.

    Of course, it isn't for the squeamish...
  • by ajakk ( 29927 ) on Tuesday November 04, 2003 @02:13PM (#7388186) Homepage
    A much better site for information on learning Japanese is at U. Mass. []
    • Re:Learning Japanese (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Otter ( 3800 )
      Of course, it would be irresponsible of me to make any sweeping generalizations about such alarge group of people, but ALL Japanese people have three characteristics: they "speak" English, they dress very nicely, and they're short...Lastly, the Japanese are all short. Really, really short. It's kind of funny.

      Not in my experience -- Japanese (under 35, anyway) are huge! Not huge like Dinkas or Hutus, but my impression is that they're much taller than Asian-Americans, on average.

      Other than that, though, that

    • Well, then try German []
      It has the advantage of sporting almost the same character-set as english.
  • Maybe it would be faster for me to learn Japanese?

    So long as you are not turning Japanese [] that will be fine.
  • GITS:Innocence (Score:3, Informative)

    by darkstar949 ( 697933 ) on Tuesday November 04, 2003 @02:14PM (#7388204)
    Looks good, very eye-candy like the first GITS, however, will it have the content to go with the eye-candy? The first movie (IMHO) had the problem of being very good looking, however, the story was a bit of a let down. Also, the story in the movie didn't follow the manga correctly, with many parts not happening in the manga. However, I can understand how there would be problems converting from a manga to a OVA or movie.

    Also, I would say that the US will not be seeing the movie until sometime in 2005. I personaly am looking forward to GITS:Stand Allow Complex, both the series and the manga.

    • Re:GITS:Innocence (Score:4, Informative)

      by Pope ( 17780 ) on Tuesday November 04, 2003 @02:23PM (#7388295)

      Then GITS:Stand Alone Complex is the one for you! 26 episodes in the current run, and was renewed for another 26. Fansubs currently only exist up to 22 because the title was licensed for translation and distribution recently. No idea what the timeline is for release, though.

      Episde Guide []

    • The stories in anime are usually a bit thin - although, as with Akira, I found that in subtitles things hung together better than in the dub. A short form like a feature length is never going to be able to exactly follow a long form like a Manga series. It seems to work best just to go with the flow and take it for what it is.
  • Not that far off? (Score:3, Informative)

    by ChrisTower ( 122297 ) on Tuesday November 04, 2003 @02:17PM (#7388230) Homepage
    But I can't help thinking a translated version is some time off from the 2004 Japanese release...

    The original GitS had a simultaneous theatrical release in Japan, the US and the UK. So, you might not have to wait that long after all. Oh, and I'm sure the fansubbers will be all over it as fast as possible. I saw a TeleSync of the Cowboy Bebop movie two weeks after its Japanese premier.
  • Learning Japanese (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Squeebee ( 719115 ) <squeebee@gmai[ ]om ['l.c' in gap]> on Tuesday November 04, 2003 @02:20PM (#7388259)
    "Maybe it would be faster for me to learn Japanese?"

    I would say that you can't really grasp Japanese language without living in Japan for a while. I can say that after taking Japanese in High School and College and getting top marks in both, my Japanese skills turned out to be pathetic when I finally got to Japan.

    That being said, after a few years of diving into the language (by which I mean being thrown in the deep end of the pool), I could function fairly well as an interpreter.

    The big thing is to go to Japan and speak Japanese, even if you can't. Hanging around with other English speakers all the time and/or copping out and trying to get them to speak English will get you nowhere. The average english teacher I see in Japan can't speak a lick of Japanese even after several years. Why? because they either do not want to learn or constantly take the easy way out.

  • You can learn Japanese in about a year, if you are living in the country. If you're not American, look into the Working Holiday Visa option. There are also some excellent exchange programs with generous scholarships to students.
    • What, are they denying entry of people from my country?
      • According to this page [], the WH visa is for "Citizens of Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Korea, France, Germany and the United Kingdom". So it's not just the US that was not included in that program.

        Also, if you're a U.S. citizen and you want to go to Japan for sightseeing, shopping, recreation, et cetera, you can just take your passport, get on a plane and go. You'll be given a 90 day temporary visa at customs in Japan. If you want to work in Japan though, you'll need to apply for a working visa.

        This "
  • by darkmayo ( 251580 ) on Tuesday November 04, 2003 @02:21PM (#7388276)
    If you want more of the GITS i suggest checking out this anime series. It takes place in a different timeline where Mokoto Kusangi never encountered the Puppet Master.

    It has been fansubbed by a few groups and I believe it is licensed for US release as well.

  • Subtitles (Score:3, Funny)

    by chefren ( 17219 ) on Tuesday November 04, 2003 @02:26PM (#7388329)
    Learning to read english is probably easier. Then you can watch the movie with subtiles.
  • by dcs ( 42578 )
    For a bit I thought people were talking about the release of GitS: Standalone Complex in the US.
  • by 5amTheButcher ( 720031 ) <> on Tuesday November 04, 2003 @02:31PM (#7388385) Homepage Journal
    I think the biggest problem anime currently faces in the US is not translation, or people not liking sub-titles. It comes down to two things:
    People expect anime to be childrens cartoons, because that's all american cartoons are (in general)
    People look for a traditional western storyline, and they can't handle characters who are both good and bad, and stories that deal with multiple social issues, without offering panaceas at the end.

    It takes a unique type of American to enjoy an anime, and until the rest of the country realizes the walls they have up, and takes them down, and appreciates anime for the beautiful deep art it is, anime won't be widely accepted.

    What does this have to do with GITS? I would love to see that movie on a big screen, but unless I catch it at a local college, I've got no chance. We need to change American preconceptions so that we can watch our movies the way they were meant to be watched!

    I often show friends the movie Princess Mononoke(sp?), and they say, "Wow, that was incredible!", and I tell them, "There are more movies like that, and a lot that are better than that." But no one has ever heard of it, because the american public can't understand or be bothered to try and understand an animated cartoon not aimed at children, or that doesn't hinge on humour. Sure, Pixar has gotten animation into the mainstream, but all of pixars movies are considered "Funny" and "child-safe".

    Just my 3.5 cents.
    • I've seen my share of Anime, and it's not an issue of a "traditional western storyline" that's lacking. Too many storylines in Japanese movies and anime are simply lacking quality. Important details are left out of the story line. There are giant plot holes you could drive a bus through. This applies to live action films, too. Compare "Ringu" and "The Ring." There are so many unexplained occurences in "Ringu" that were developed and explained in the remake. "Audition" is a sick, sick movie, that will
    • People look for a traditional western storyline, and they can't handle characters who are both good and bad, and stories that deal with multiple social issues, without offering panaceas at the end.

      Ironically, one of the biggest reasons I dislike Anime is it's lack of subtlety. I've watched GitS, Cowboy Bebop, and various others that people have recommended to me as the "cream of the crop", and the aspect that stuck with me more than anything else was just how one-dimensional the characters were. Anger,
    • Know what? Slashdotters need to stop being so fucking pompous.

      People do understand that anime is "for adults". They understand it just fine.

      Many people don't like anime because, frankly, a lot of anime sucks. The ratio of shitty japanese entertainment to good japanese entertainment is probably about the same as its american counterpart.

      For instance, what Cartoon Network tries to pass off as adult swim. I like Bebop, I can watch Trigun, and FLCL is visually stunning, even if the wackiness made it almo
    • "People look for a traditional western storyline, and they can't handle characters who are both good and bad, and stories that deal with multiple social issues, without offering panaceas at the end."

      Or maybe its the fact that 90% of anime is the same story over and over and over.

      Today on anime. Guko is going to avenge his fathers death, but first he has to conquer his self doubts, but then his realizes he has a great power hidden within that he can unlock if is truly believes in himself. All the while his
      • 90% of anime is the same story over and over and over.

        90% of everything is crap. []

        don't get me started with anime writers obsession with young women

        I think it's because they haven't grow up yet ... into pussywhipped hypocrites who are supposed to deny biology and thousands of years of history where age ~15 was ripe. Not that I'm defending that borderline pedocrap in todays society or anything, as I find it highly annoying for another reason: I can't stand the way characters in most jap anime always act

    • I think you're missing a large problem with Anime acceptance in the States, and that is the gore factor.

      Anime has some of the most relentlessly overdone gore to be found in any medium. And often, it seems, for no real purpose. Akira, one of the first movies Anime newbies generally see, is a perfect example of this. As is Princess Mononoke, for that matter.

      There's a japanese fixation with biologically disturbing imagery that just doesn't fly with large numbers of people in the States. Violence, sure, b
    • And this has nothing to do with the fact that anime embraces sexism and racism wholesale?

      And anime is for children. Its target market in Japan is kids. Ever been to an anime shop in Japan, or watched Japanese TV?

  • Huh? (Score:5, Funny)

    by 44BSD ( 701309 ) on Tuesday November 04, 2003 @02:32PM (#7388395)
    I never heard of this "Ghost in the" shell.

    For me, you still can't beat Bourne.
  • Considering the abrupt and seemingly unfinished ending of the first movie, I'm no so sure I want to get too worked up over a sequel.
    • Re:A Sequel? (Score:2, Informative)

      by darkstar949 ( 697933 )
      The orginal GITS manga was written with the same type of ending, the author orginaly intended for another manga to be out soon telling the rest of the story, but delays kept it from happening.
  • Fansubbed divx and/or xvid releases will make their way to your local bittorrent search engine.
  • yes, indeed. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by mirko ( 198274 )
    Subject is in answer to :
    trailer is beautiful!

    Looks like there's a lot of computer graphics in it...

    BTW, Lots of us see the original GITS as the movie that got plagiarized by the Wachowskis.

    It's nice to see an incoming sequel of the original thing.
    • Sorry, how does it follow that Wachowskis plagiarized GITS? I'm not defending the Wachowskis -- Matrix is already a rip-off of about a dozen schools of western, eastern, ancient and modern philosophy -- but the storylines seem largely divergent.


      • Some chick thinks she's an ordinary chick living in an ordinary world
      • Chick gets mixed up in something big
      • Chick turns out to be VERY un-ordinary
      • ...but she's living in an ordinary world (i.e. not fundamentally different from the world she thought
      • Actually its the visual aspect and feel of the movie that they borrowed, not the plot per se.

        The whole "shooting at the thermo camo felon and hitting the watermelon" scene is almost identical to morpheous getting shot in the leg in the first movie as he is trying to escape the building.
        • Considering all of the credit they give to anime in general, and work done with The Animatrix, I really don't think that anyone is surprised.

          GitS and the Matrix flicks are what they are, and that is reflective of the society and cutlure around them at that time. I have no doubt there are anime pieces picking up on things the brothers have done in the Matrix flicks.

      • Re:yes, indeed. (Score:3, Insightful)

        by xenocide2 ( 231786 )
        More like the visual style and cinematic presentation than any sort of symbolic plot. The lobby scene from the matrix is influenced by the scene with the spider tank. The difference is that there's background symbology in the violence, as the spider tank mauls one of those taxonomy trees accidentally. Another similarity is the constant choice of night as a setting. If it's not night, its at least dark and rainy in GITS.

        On the other hand, your plot summar of GITS is somewhat flawed. "The chick" hardly think
  • by Vadim Grinshpun ( 31 ) on Tuesday November 04, 2003 @02:37PM (#7388456) Homepage
    I was very surprised at what I heard when I opened the trailer--the song that goes through the whole thing is set to the melody of Joaquin Rodrigo's 'Concierto del Aranguez', one of the very few classical concertos for guitar. Interesting to hear the piece arranged for voice and hand drums :)

  • by AIX-Hood ( 682681 ) on Tuesday November 04, 2003 @02:37PM (#7388468)
  • Wait for fansub (Score:3, Informative)

    by klui ( 457783 ) on Tuesday November 04, 2003 @02:39PM (#7388491)
    Fansubs will come out in less than a month. You can then read your way through, along with the subs of the songs.
    • This is actually one area where I feel fansubbers are making strides. Not only do they tend to have more informative notes, usually regarding japanese culture specific things that non-japanese might not understand, but they also do something incredible in the opening and end songs.

      Almost all of the decent fansubbing groups now have the romanji (transliterated japanese) on the top, the kana (japanese characters) below that, and then on the bottom of the screen they have the english translation.

      I've been tea

      • Re:Wait for fansub (Score:3, Insightful)

        by klui ( 457783 )
        I agree, and the fansubs are better in quality and content than the commercial/licensed offerings. I suppose this is kinda like open source vs closed source (commercial). Projects where amatures do something for the pure love of it is done differently than something with a commercial agenda. It also applies to Ballmer's recent comment about how closed source is better because they have roadmaps and timelines. I say that because these timelines are set in place causes some of that something extra to be missi
        • Re:Wait for fansub (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Chibi ( 232518 )

          I agree, and the fansubs are better in quality and content than the commercial/licensed offerings. I suppose this is kinda like open source vs closed source (commercial). Projects where amatures do something for the pure love of it is done differently than something with a commercial agenda.

          You know, I really hate this attitude. Just because you've seen it by fansubbers first, or they are doing it "for love," doesn't mean it's always better. I have seen fansub with atrocious spelling errors and mistr

      • If you're using linux (might be available for windows, no idea), there's "kanatest" (debian package name). It's great for practicing kana recognition: within about 4 days I went from knowing zip to getting perfect scores in both katakana and hiragana.
    • It's already been picked up for an English release by Dreamworks. If you don't want to support Dreamworks, buy the legit R2 (Japan, Europe) DVD release and pray it comes with English subtitles or the dub (neither is likely.)

      And I'll contest the accuracy of any fansubber and their notes, especially the loads of crap groups that are out there today. Maybe we'll get lucky and get another "mass naked child event" just like we got in GitS: SAC! Yay for fansubbers!

  • You know... I haven't updated one my sites in EONS... I wrote a document called 'Ghost in the Shell []' that surprisingly gets about 3000 hits a week on Google searches. Not much, but certainly enough to know the interest GITS generates. I've done the anime thing a while back, now I only have time for Jenna, Chasey, and other starlets
  • I never thought I would say this about a Masamune Shirow manga, but GITS2 sucked!

    Instead of brilliant mecha design and architecture, we get variations on "butt floss girl floating in cyberspace." Which I guess is his new variation on "butt floss girl climbing out of mecha." It's like "Cable Porn: The Manga."

    I actually cancelled my order at the local comic shop after issue 3 came out.

    I've talked to other people whe have also been turned off of Shirow recently because of the cheese. It's kind of sad, he's
    • Don't worry, GITS2:Innocence has nothing whatsoever to do with GITS2:Man-Machine Complex.

      Basically, the director (Mamoru Oshii, of Patlabor, Jin-Roh and the original GITS movie fame) wanted to write his own story within the universe of GITS but not involving the manga's plot or characters. It's basically a complete spinoff, focusing more on drama and science fiction than on police action and Motoko's buttfloss.

      Folks who liked the CONCEPTS presented in the first movie but felt the plot was a little thin (w
      • That'd be Man-Machine Interface (not Complex). The TV anime is Stand Alone Complex, which is much more like the manga than the movie IMHO.

        I haven't read past #4 or 5 I think of GiTS2:MMI so I can't really pass judgement on it...but it didn't seem quite as readable as the first one.
  • If the english version is delayed... there's almost certainly going to be some fansubs around the net beforehand. If you're feeling impatient, you could always grab a copy of the japanese DVD (to be legit) and then download a fansub so you can understand the movie better.
  • by Shinzaburo ( 416221 ) on Tuesday November 04, 2003 @02:57PM (#7388685) Homepage
    It only seems appropriate to provide a link to the limited edition Ghost in the Shell Mouse [], just in case anime fans haven't heard of it. This mouse was designed by Masamune Shiro and is really quite a sight to behold. I love the ergonomics, light weight, and 800 count resolution, but I'm probably biased. ;)
  • by Chibi ( 232518 ) on Tuesday November 04, 2003 @03:05PM (#7388762) Journal []

    Dreamworks To Distribute Ghost In The Shell II
    In Spring Of 2004

    August 14, 2003
    Screen Daily reports that Dreamworks SKG has formed a specialty distribution arm, Go Fish, which will distribute its first film, Satoshi Kon's Millenium Actress, on September 12 in New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, and San Francisco. Dreamworks set up Go Fish just after Warner Bros. announced the launch of Warner Independent Pictures, which will release films from independents and small production companies. While Go Fish will undoubtedly release its share of indie films, the second film announced by Dreamworks was Ghost In The Shell II: Innocence, the follow-up to the extremely successful science fiction anime feature, Ghost In The Shell, which was directed by Mamoru Oshii and based on the manga series by Masamune Shirow (published in the U.S by Dark Horse). It should be interesting to see if Dreamworks primarily uses Go Fish to compete with Warners for indie films or to gain a beachhead for anime feature films in the rough and tumble arena of theatrical exhibition.

    Ghost in the Shell II is in the final stages of production in Japan, and Go Fish plans to release the feature film late in the first half of 2004. Back in 1996 the original Ghost In the Shell film made a major impact in the U.S. and launched a plethora of successful tie-in products including posters, statues, art books, manga, and action figures. With a Ghost in the Shell TV series (see "Bandai Gets Ghost In the Shell TV Series") set to debut in the U.S. and the merchandising potential of a second Ghost In The Shell movie (see "New Ghost In The Shell Movie"), this property is poised to take off once again.

  • Dreamworks has already licensed the film, and will release it under their Go Fish label next spring, practically simultaneous with the Japanse premier. So quit bellyaching about a long wait.

    In addition, the aforementioned TV series, GitS:Stand Alone Complex, has also been licensed by Bandai Entertainment USA, which actually helped finance it. It should see domestic DVD next year, probably about the same time as the movie is released to theatres.
  • Maybe it would be faster for me to learn Japanese?

    No, it would be faster to wait a couple hours for the fansubbers to do their subtitle translation on the pirate version of the movie (that you'll obviously replace with the official DVD when released, right?). fansubs are very often better than the official translations anyway, and include handy cultural notes.


  • Wow. What a beautiful mood-setting trailer. But then, at the end, some guys says INNOCENCE! In the most jarring way possible.

    Anyone know the name of the song used?

Neutrinos have bad breadth.