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Ringworld's Children 187

Posted by timothy from the hi-kids dept.
ppanon writes "When Larry Niven's Ringworld's Children came out in June, I picked up a copy and it's been sitting on my shelf since. I had been hesitating to read it because I didn't want to be disappointed by it as I had been by some of his other solo novels in the last decade (Destiny's Road, The Ringworld Throne). But being home with a virus this weekend, and having run out of new Anime DVDs to watch, I thought it was time to catch up on some reading. I looked at Niven's book and thought, 'Might as well, I can't feel much worse.' As I got further into the novel, my problem wasn't that of feeling worse, it was forcing myself to put the book down when I felt I needed to rest again." Read on for the rest.
Ringworld's Children
author Larry Niven
pages 284
publisher TOR
rating 8.5
reviewer Paul-Andre Panon
ISBN 0765301679
summary excellent page turner

The Ringworld is like a small slice of a Dyson Sphere, a massive ring with radius slightly larger than 1 AU, spun to simulate gravity on the inside with thousand mile-high side walls to hold atmosphere. In the second Ringworld novel, The Ringworld Engineers, it was revealed that the Ringworld was probably created by Pak protectors, a species cousin to humans with three phases in their life cycle: juvenile, breeders, and protectors. Protectors are extremely territorial, competitive, and intelligent, and will go to any lengths they can to protect and provide competitive advantage for their descendants, as identified by a keen sense of smell. While protectors normally cull out any significant genetic divergence from normal (picked up by changes in smell), a failure in the food supply caused all protectors in the Earth Pak colony to die. Breeders evolved sapience and became homo sapiens.

Something similar has somehow happened on Ringworld and, in the third book, after decades exploring the Ringworld, our hero, Louis Wu, decides to replace the current insane master of the Ringworld, Bram, a protector created from a vampirical species also evolved from the original Pak breeders. Even insane, Bram is still many times smarter, stronger, faster, and tougher than any human, so Louis and his cohorts don't have much of a chance taking him on. Humans and all Pak-descended Ringworld species can still turn into (misshapen/modified) protectors if exposed to tree-of-life root, but Louis is too old to make the transition to protector himself (besides, he likes breeding). He carefully creates another protector, Tunesmith, and, with the help of others, they manage to kill Bram.

Ringworld's Children picks up a few months after the end of the Ringworld Throne. Louis comes out of the autodoc that has been repairing the severe damage he suffered in the fight against Bram. He's also young again, thanks to Carlos Wu's one-of-a-kind nanotech autodoc, after tinkering by the hyper-intelligent Tunesmith. Tunesmith has been busy soaking up all Known Space knowledge, including advanced Puppeteer knowledge from the completely intimidated Hindmost, the former leader of the Puppeteer race and Louis' erstwhile employer. He's also been working on cleaning up some of the mess left by Bram (tens of centuries or more of overdue Ringworld repairs - Bram was a lousy housekeeper, too). More urgent however is the Fringe War, a cold war in the remote asteroid belt at the far edges of the Ringworld system (similar to our Oort Belt). Most of the major species of Known Space have at least a few ships there. The ARM (the UN's police/military forces) and the Kzin have substantial war fleets. All the factions want to learn the Ringworld's secrets. Those fleets have antimatter weapons that could destroy the Ringworld as collateral damage and, for perhaps decades, they've been in a Mexican standoff, but deployments and movement patterns indicate all antimatter hell could break loose in the near future.

Louis' puppet strings are now held by Tunesmith, and since Tunesmith takes some pretty big calculated risks without explaining their rationale, Louis likes it maybe even less than when those strings were held by the Hindmost. Even if they get past the immediate emergency, Tunesmith's likely long-term plans for Louis are far from appealing. He has to figure out how to permanently escape from Tunesmith and the Ringworld without getting blown up by the Fringe War or triggering an apocalyptic attack on the Ringworld. His only chance at escape from Tunesmith's vastly superior intelligence is that Tunesmith is heavily distracted planning on how to deal with the Fringe War.

In earlier ringworld novels, when Louis and his co-explorers made first contact with native Ringworld population groups, they would play the "God Game," first getting their story straight and consistent before conning the natives to obtain knowledge or food. That dialogue technique is used here again, including when Louis uses it by himself to figure out scenarios he can use against Tunesmith. Part of my mind was a little distracted, thinking "Is this how Niven works out the plot outline of novels, before fleshing out individual scenes or chapters?" But the rest of my (virus-addled) brain was racing along trying to figure all the possibilities where Niven or his characters might be going. Even so, Niven still managed to completely surprise me once near the end, because I'd let myself get distracted and miss a couple of the better hidden clues.

Along the way, Niven ties up a lot of loose ends and answers a lot of questions, about the Ringworld and about some other phenomena in the Known Space universe. The plot has few slow points, and almost none in the second half of the book, hiding fairly well Niven's slightly-less-than-usual weakness at character development. This novel should earn Niven another Hugo nomination

If you're a recent SF reader and can't handle the lack of ubiquitous computers or the ESP/Psionics that dates some of Niven's more famous and popular 60's and 70's era stories (when the Amazing Randi hadn't yet debunked Uri Geller and most others of his ilk), you may find his Ringworld stories more palatable. Pak don't need or want computers on the ringworld, and there's passing mention of psionics only because of the conventions established in other Known Space series. If you like older 60's or 70's-vintage Niven stories because of the imaginative aliens, environments, or inventions, you'll almost certainly enjoy reading this book. Finally, if you've liked any of the other stories in the Ringworld or Known Space series and were left wanting more, you need to read this book.

You can purchase Ringworld's Children from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.
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Ringworld's Children

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  • Larry Niven's Known Space (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, 2004 @05:50PM (#10217044)
    Is one of those series of books I think should be made into movies. Mono-filiment weapons, impact armour, Pak Protectors, Pearson's Puppeteers, the whole shabang!

    I would love love to see Louis Wu on the silver screen. Such a coherent universe filled with POSSIBLE (kinda) technology. I just love it. And books like Lucifer's hammer and the Smoke Ring series are some of my favorites.

    • Known Space Movie (Score:5, Informative)

      by Tmack ( 593755 ) on Friday September 10, 2004 @06:05PM (#10217154) Homepage Journal
      Its been discussed off and on, details here [larryniven.org], even though that site hasnt been updated in a while (last year by the looks of it). The movie rights for Ringworld have been sold, but as of yet not much has come of it. This was also brought up in the Slashdot [slashdot.org] interview with Niven.

      Tm

    • Re:Larry Niven's Known Space (Score:5, Insightful)

      by east coast ( 590680 ) on Friday September 10, 2004 @06:09PM (#10217180)
      one of those series of books I think should be made into movies

      Wish nothing of the sort! I can only imagine Hollywood's greasy hands on Niven. They'd shread it to the point that besides the minimal plot line there would be nothing left. And that's even being optimistic... Most screenwriters think that putting their own spin on a story makes it better. These people normally think wrong.
      • ... keep in mind that Harlan Ellison does screenplays.

        I have alot of respect for his work.

      • That's not to say that it's not possible to do it well. It would end up leaving out a lot of the why and wherefore and just showing you what happened, but the real question I think is whether or not you can sell it without studio editing. You have to make them believe that more people will go see it if they don't screw it up. The fact is that you could merchandise the living shit out of a ringworld movie. How many of you people wouldn't buy a figurine or plushie of a pierson's puppeteer? PUT YOUR FUCKING H

        • That's not to say that it's not possible to do it well.

          I think it's a pretty long shot. My guess is that if any Niven material could get to the silver screen in some semblence of it's true self it would probably be one of the Dream Park series. Personally I'm very fond of Dream Park and the "sci" end of it isn't so far off course that the story could not only be beleivable but also draw out people who are not really into the sci-fi aspect of things. Not that those people don't suck or anything...

      • Re:Larry Niven's Known Space (Score:4, Interesting)

        by techno-vampire ( 666512 ) on Friday September 10, 2004 @09:02PM (#10218296) Homepage
        One thing that can keep Hollywood from mucking up the movie is for the author to be one of the people financing the film, and Larry's got enough cash to do exactly that.

        • Re:Larry Niven's Known Space (Score:4, Insightful)

          by plover ( 150551 ) * on Saturday September 11, 2004 @01:09AM (#10219342) Homepage Journal
          [ WARNING: PERSONAL MOVIE OPINIONS AHEAD ]

          Stephen King did that, and any movie he's made where he was personally in control of the screenplay kinda sucked (at least in my opinion.) The Shining, The Running Man, The Shawshank Redemption, all directed by other people were big Hollywood hits. The movies where he was more involved (in order to be more true to his books,) such as The Langoliers and The Stand, just weren't as gripping as far as movies go. I mean I liked them, just not as well as the ones that had another person's vision putting them on the screen.

          An author obviously has his or her ideas for screenplays as far as the story goes, and what a vision of it may be, but that doesn't necessarily mean that authors have the "eye" required to make a great movie.

          Not that we could, but I'd really like to see a Phillip K. Dick movie made by his own hand. Any of his stories would do. I'd love to know what went on in that brain of his. But that doesn't mean it would be a commercially successful movie. Now, compare that to some of Hollywood's best science fiction movies that were adaptations of his novels: Bladerunner, Minority Report, etc. Hugely successful, incredibly entertaining, but not necessarily true to every word he wrote.

          Obviously, Larry can afford to take a chance and make his own movie. But that doesn't mean it's going to be a great film. Yes, Hollywood filmmakers can screw up a good story, but some of them can also spin a great movie from a good story.

          • I wasn't thinking of Larry making the movie on his own, just investing in it so as to give him a bigger voice in how it's made. He's a smart man, and I can't picture him trying to control the whole movie, just keep Wollyweird from going off into left field.

    • Re:Larry Niven's Known Space (Score:4, Insightful)

      by HiThere ( 15173 ) * <charleshixsn@ear ... inus threevowels> on Friday September 10, 2004 @06:34PM (#10217335)
      Good books usually make lousy movies. And sometimes poor books make good moives. The two media do things very differently.

      (OTOH, I stopped watching the Tolkien Trilogy after the second movie. If you found that tampering with the plot acceptable, then disregard the previous paragraph.)

      • Good books can turn into good movies in two or three ways. They can make the movie faithfully out of the book, which makes a really long movie but produces good results if the actors are ok. They can make a decent movie which faithfully relays the message(s) of the book. And, they can make a totally different movie than what an actual screenplay of the book would be, that regardless turns out to be an excellent movie.

        It is a shame what happened to the two towers, and when I watch that movie I generally

    • They already made a game [bungie.net]about it (kinda).
    • I agree with the fact that any movie adapton would suck. Per definition....
      But the "hard sf" part of nivens books are great... Especially his "perfect machines", like the Lying Bastard, with technology thats NEARLY magic, but still understandable...
      The slaver desintegrators, the GP hulls that survive everything but antimatter, the statis fields ect are not really unique, but the way they are naturally handled like they simply FIT into the universe is just too cool.
      The only bad thing about the "known space"
    • What really needs to be turned into a film is Cloak Of Anarchy [larryniven.org].
    • Scifi channel are supposed to be making a mini series...

    • Re:Larry Niven's Known Space (Score:4, Informative)

      by Xibby ( 232218 ) <zibby+slashdot@ringworld.org> on Friday September 10, 2004 @08:23PM (#10218076) Homepage Journal
      According to Cinescape [cinescape.com], Ringworld is being turned into a Sci-Fi Channel mini-seriies. Time will tell if it makes the cut...
    • I'd rather see Integral Trees and Smoke Ring made into a movie. With today's special effects, it could be done, and they work better as standalone stories. Especially Integral Trees, because when the book starts the main characters don't know much about the world, and they (and the reader) learn it as they travel - they learn more of the history of how the people got there, and they learn about more of the complex societies and complex critters in the ring. That's a perfect way to introduce the setting t

  • New covers? (Score:5, Funny)

    by beeglebug ( 767468 ) * on Friday September 10, 2004 @05:51PM (#10217049)
    If so I just know i'm going to have to to buy the first three again so they don't look stupid on the shelf together...

    • Re:New covers? (Score:5, Funny)

      by dwhitman ( 105201 ) on Friday September 10, 2004 @06:10PM (#10217186)
      > If so I just know i'm going to have to to buy the first three again

      Ringworld, the directors special cut edition?

      Ringworld was one of the first SF novels I bought as a kid, when I ran out of material at the local public library. My copy is a first edition where Niven's got the world rotating backwards during Louis Wu's attempt to stretch out his birthday via teleportation. The newer printings have all been digitally reworked to cover up the mistake.

      I'm pretty sure that in the newer printing Nessus fires the tasp at the exact same time that Speaker to Animals is swinging the variable sword, but I'm too cheap to buy a copy to check.

  • Growing up, Niven and Pournelle ... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, 2004 @05:52PM (#10217058)
    ...were my favorite authors. Starting with Lucifer's Hammer, then Oath of Fealty, The Mote in God's Eye, and all the rest -- I'd purchase their co-authored novels in hardback when I could, which I did with very few authors.

    Unfortunately, after Ringworld Engineer's, Niven's solo output seems to have fallen in quality and I went with David Brin for my hardback book-buying :) I'll still pick up this latest one, I just hope it is better than Destiny's Road.

  • Publisher's Weekly (Score:3, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, 2004 @05:53PM (#10217067)
    I just read a review in publisher's weekly that said this was Niven's worst ringworld book to date -- the characters are flat, it can't be understood without religious attention to the earlier books, and the infodumps are too dry.

    Now I'm so torn -- WHO TO BELIEVE?!?

    • Re:Publisher's Weekly (Score:4, Interesting)

      by mykepredko ( 40154 ) on Friday September 10, 2004 @06:19PM (#10217246) Homepage
      I'm a big Niven/Ringworld fan and I've read (and re-read all the books). I would say Ringworld's Children is somewhere in the middle of the books - although there is a plot point that really pissed me off.

      The book is probably is the best thing that Niven has written in years (take what you will from this) but it's nowhere as good as the original "Ringworld" or his other early/mid '70s novels like "Protector" or "A gift from Earth".

      The story does move reasonably well although I found that with this story Niven got a bit too deep in the minutia of the engineering of the Ringworld and what happens when it is punctured.

      Cryptic Spoiler Warning: What I considered to be the logical continuation in the story arc did happen but Niven wimped out and changed things back to the way they were. If you are a fan of Ringworld and Niven's "Known Space" series, you can probably guess what I'm talking about.

      This reversal killed the book for me; up to this point the story progressed nicely (although a little flat due to the technical descriptions) and I was looking forward to future books with the change.

      If you're a big Niven fan and have read all the Ringworld books, then it is probably worth buying the paperback.

      myke


      • Well, remember which planet they're headed for.

        Remember what happened to that planet in Protector.

        Remember that Pak like to leave stuff behind for contengencies. (cf the advice about searching the prank Stonehenge at the end of Protector)

        There are still possibilities...

        • Yeah, the reason for 'reversal' was rather weak - given that the doc could have been reprogrammed. Fear of the puppeteer disconnecting the doc? Then again, why was the puppeteer still needed in the first place?

          I mean, after Niven declared the protectors to be so much driven by their instincts, it sounds rather implausible for one to leave his freshly-smelled descendant on its own (protected by 'luck') when the opposite numbers were already aware of his existence. Needing time to prepare, yes - but that? ki

    • Re:Publisher's Weekly (Score:4, Interesting)

      by abb3w ( 696381 ) on Friday September 10, 2004 @07:30PM (#10217701) Journal
      I'd disagree with that assessment; Ringworld Throne was worse. However, it definitely requires reading all three of the earlier Ringworld books first, and if you haven't read all of Niven's other Known Space material (including Kzin Wars stuff from him and his guests), there will be lesser references (EG, "Sheathclaws") you won't get. The infodumps are no dryer than needed for protectors conversing in a hurry, and while some of the minor players lack depth, most of the characters are as well developed as Niven ever manages.

      Snuggle up to your local librarian to borrow the hardcover, perhaps buy the paperback when it comes out, or the hardcover when copies start hitting clearance prices in B&N and the like (which is the only reason I bought Ringworld Throne-- I decided it was worth four bucks in hardcover to fill in the hole in my Niven collection). It's Niven, so it's not bad, but he's not on my short list of hardcover purchases these days. (Bujold, Brust, Laurell Hamilton, George RR Martin, and Modesitt-- the last of whom I don't recommend usually, but his work suits some of my tastes.)

      It felt a trifle skeletal, but he's got a universe of details to juggle consistently, so I can sympathize with his restraint in not making a larger book.

    • Now I'm so torn -- WHO TO BELIEVE?!?

      After the previous book in the series? I believe the Publishers Weekly review.

      This book would have to be really bad to be worse than Ringworld Throne. There are few things more painful to read than an aging author trying to participate in the pop culture of 10 minutes ago (those awful vampires). I've never agreed with the entire Niven worldview and his habit of having "repentant" liberal characters spout neo-con bullshit occasionally sickens me, but at least his boo

  • I'm gonna read it... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mocular ( 635667 ) on Friday September 10, 2004 @05:58PM (#10217104)
    even if it has been a decade or two since he wrote a novel I could really get into. I became a real SF fan reading Niven in the 70s, so I have to at least try to be loyal.

    I still re-read Beowulf Shaefer stories every now and again. I almost have them memorized, but still think they are some of the best SF ever - in an `old friend` kind of way.

    Ringworld was really great at the time. But the sequels fell into the Asimov trap of trying to tie everything in Known Space together after they were written with obvious discrepencies.

    And, alas, I just can't stand to read fantasy. Whenever there is a plot problem, BOOM! magic happens. Niven's hereditary luck fell into this fantasy trap and it hurt his work.

    Here's hoping Niven's back to the good stuff!

    • Niven's stories about the teleporters and the monks were great. the last ringworld book let me blah.
    • But the sequels fell into the Asimov trap of trying to tie everything in Known Space together after they were written with obvious discrepencies.

      I thought that was the Robert A. Heinlein trap. [G]

      • I thought that was the Robert A. Heinlein trap

        I'd argue that Asimov did it first. Foundation's Edge in '82, The Robots of Dawn in '83, and Robots and Empire in '85 were where Asimov started tying the 3 storylines together. Heinlein wrote The Cat Who Walks Thru Walls in '85 and To Sail Beyond The Sunset in '87, although you could say that The Number of the Beast was where he started tying things together, and that came out in '79.

    • >trying to tie everything in Known Space together

      In fact, I think there should be one in which a Slaver who's been in stasis gets an amplifier helment and tries to take over the Ringworld. It could be called The Lord of the Ringworld of Ptavvs.
  • The only fiction authors I read anymore. I didn't care much for Ringworld Throne, but still found in it something to enjoy, at least as part of the series.

    Time to go back through all my Known Space books again, and get ramped up for this one :)

    Anyone looked at N-Space? There's a great story in there by Niven about how to blow up the whole storyline! Makes life fun.

  • Read on for the rest? (Score:5, Funny)

    by dR.fuZZo ( 187666 ) on Friday September 10, 2004 @05:59PM (#10217113)
    "As I got further into the novel, my problem wasn't that of feeling worse, it was forcing myself to put the book down when I felt I needed to rest again." Read on for the rest.

    But I wanted to hear about what he thought of the book.

  • Misread title (Score:2, Funny)

    by duggie ( 787162 )
    Did anyone else read the topic as Ringworm's Children?

  • Niven follows hard science... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Plural of Mongoose ( 808754 ) on Friday September 10, 2004 @06:06PM (#10217160)
    Unlike many SF writers, Niven _tries_ to follow 'hard science' whenever possible; to wit - when college students pointed out the ringworld was unstable as first presented, he wove that fact into subsequent stories, as well as the 'attitude jet' solution.

    That's why I gotta admit I was dissapointed at his focus on 'good luck genetics' as the series progressed. A weak hook for a writer who usually does better.

    • The luck gene (Score:5, Informative)

      by devphil ( 51341 ) on Friday September 10, 2004 @06:25PM (#10217285) Homepage


      only briefly appears in the Ringworld series, and then only to nudge the plot along. It plays very very little role in Children. Good thing too, because he tried to make it play too much of a role in Throne.

      He has one other short story using the gene. It's the "future-most" of the Known Space series, set centuries after the Ringworld quartet. The lucky humans have learned about the manipulation, and how to make use of this uncontrollable unpredictable power.[*] It's an amusing story, but not up to Niven par.

      He said it would be the last story focusing on the gene, because it creates characters more powerful than the author. Likewise, while the Pak are some of his most interesting and popular creations ever, it's incredibly hard to write good stories when the characters are more intelligent than the author or the readers.

      [*] For those new to the books: just because you're lucky doesn't mean you have any say over what the luck does to you or those around you. Say, you break your arm in a three-car wreck, and while you're in the hospital, you meet your future spouse. Lucky for you overall, not necessarily so much for others.

      • Re:The luck gene (Score:3, Funny)

        by rk ( 6314 )
        while you're in the hospital, you meet your future spouse. Lucky for you overall, not necessarily so much for others.

        Yeah, especially for your current spouse.

    • Why?
      Do you know for a 100% certain fact that such a thing is impossible?

      I've told students "If I drop this weight, it'll probably hit the floor. However, there exist the possibility that it won't. Why? because until such a time as complete, total understanding of the workings of the universe comes along, there is no such thing as 100% certainty".

    • [...]I was dissapointed at his focus on 'good luck genetics' as the series progressed. A weak hook for a writer who usually does better.

      You mean, a fantastic hook (in terms of fantasy the genre, not fantasy the wet dream) for a writer who usually produces (more or less) hard science fiction.

    • Yeah, and it was great... in the 80s and before. Current science and technology is going in a very different direction, ala biotech/nanotech. Ignoring this to live in the future envisioned in the 70s and 80s is just too much. It goes way beyond suspension of disbelief into the realm of the absurd.

      Keep up with the times... you're suposed to be a futurist, Mr. Nivin. Stop living in the past and come up with a new vision.

  • Good review (Score:5, Interesting)

    by 14erCleaner ( 745600 ) <FourteenerCleaner@yahoo.com> on Friday September 10, 2004 @06:07PM (#10217170) Homepage Journal
    I agree completely with the reviewer's assessment. This might be Niven's first worthwhile novel in a decade or more. I was a rabid fan of the Known Space stuff (and also of most of the Niven/Pournelle collaborations up to the mid-80's at least), but sometime in the 1990 time frame Niven really lost it. Maybe too much success, or too much mystical/magical BS, but I couldn't really stand his work for a while. This novel, on the other hand, was a really good read. I'd recommend it to anybody who likes "classic" Niven stuff.
    • I think several (no names come to mind immediately) books he's written with other people have been pretty good over the last decade.

      I might just be soft, though. I didn't hate Destiny's Road.
      • I have not seen this newest book yet (has it even been released in Europe?) but found the previous one so-so. Could have been better, could have been worse.

        The sequels which really unreservedly sucked were the last Dune books from Frank Herbert (Chapterhouse Dune is in a class of it's own) but I suppose there were mitigating circumstances:
        - his wife (?) had died of cancer
        - he himself was about to go the same way.

  • Haven't been able to get into Ringworld (Score:3, Interesting)

    by sjbe ( 173966 ) on Friday September 10, 2004 @06:12PM (#10217196)
    I know there are a lot of Niven fans out there but I found the Ringworld novels to be rather uninteresting. Sure, the idea of the Ringworld is an interesting one but I found it to be about the only interesting thing in the books. One neat technology idea does not make for a good book. The character development and story line just didn't do it for me. (YMMV) Maybe it's meant to be pulp science fiction, I don't know.

    I haven't read a lot of Niven's other stuff but I hope some of it is better (IMO) than Ringworld. So to you Niven fans out there, if I want to read more Niven what (if anything) is actually worth reading? Ringworld just didn't do it for me.

  • Niven is dead (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Doc Ruby ( 173196 ) on Friday September 10, 2004 @06:14PM (#10217207) Homepage Journal
    _Ringworld_ and _Ringworld Engineers_ were some of the best SF I ever read, even ruining the chances for lesser writers to be taken seriously as they scuttled in Niven's shadow. But _Ringworld Throne_ was so bad that I threw it across the room in mid-read: the "Ringworld thrown" pun was its most entertaining feature. I expect that _Ringworld's Children_ is another cashin on Niven's famous brand. Just like Herbert's Dune books #3+, Asimov's Foundation books #3+, and every other sequel written years after the original success, inspired by formulaic publishing profit more than the ideas. I haven't read any other book written by Niven since the early 1980s that are even close to his first decade or so of "Known Space". If any one of those has escaped your reading list, track it down first, before wasting time on a writer past his prime. He's become a complete creature of LA, wallowing in sequel money, gasping for a breath of talent or inspiration.

    • *bzzzt* (Score:5, Interesting)

      by devphil ( 51341 ) on Friday September 10, 2004 @06:33PM (#10217329) Homepage


      I expect that _Ringworld's Children_ is [uninformed wanking deleted]

      Fortunately for all of us, you're wrong. Children is nothing like Throne. Niven lurks on some mailing lists; he's well aware that the 3rd one was a disaster compared to the first two. He knows exactly what people did and did not like about it. He took it into account when writing this one.

      In fact, in the prologue to Children, he gives credit to one particular mailing list for giving feedback.

      But actually reading the book would be too hard for you, I guess, so you just move straight to the flaming.

      • Re:*bzzzt* (Score:3, Informative)

        by Doc Ruby ( 173196 )
        Nah, I felt so badly burned by 'Throne that I reacted with a retch on hearing the news of an undying franchise. If you can show me a quote from Niven showing his awareness of its disastrous quality, then I'd consider reading it. And so might many more of us, lurking on these threads, who haven't seen that important bad turn unstoned. Do us all the favor of giving us a second chance at a once-great author, rather than just flaming back.


        • Google for fithp@aol.com postings, if you'd like to see what he's written. (That was the address he used, years ago. Eventually it went the way of all unfiltered AOL addresses, and today probably receives more spam in a 24-hour period than I can store in my house. Dunno what his address is these days.)

    • Properly understood, the Herbert Dune books make a unified picture. The recent prequels, OTOH, should be garbaged immediately.

      I think that many of Niven's recent books aren't worth reading, so I haven't been following them. And most of them are without much depth (in contrast to the Herbert books).

      Ringworld was a tour-de-force. A spectacular extrapolation. And tremendously entertaining. But it wasn't deep. Perhaps his closest approach to depth is "The World of Ptaavs".

      Well, not everything has to be
  • Once Nivens wordiness is removed Ringworld and Ringworld Engineers would make GREAT sfx movies.

    Halo gives a hint of how good the concept is visually.

    On the literary front I think Niven suffered horrendously from his collaborations with Pournelle. The books make good intro sci-fi but read like childrens fiction now. I also think that Gentry Lee diluted ACC's work to a childlike level.

    Any way imho Iain M Banks [iainbanks.net] writes THE best modern Sci-Fi.
    • Halo is not what i hoped a "ring-world" would look like.. probably reasonably accurate (the faint curve disapearing into nothing) but not particularly exciting. A much smaller ring would be far more interesting, although perhaps at photorealism on the big screen it would be more impressive (certainly plenty to do a few good flybys of) Any yes, Iain M Banks does write the best modern sci-fi. but check Richard Morgan - Altered Carbon was superb, Broken Angels not so, haven't read the last yet.
  • But being home with a virus this weekend, and having run out of new Anime DVDs to watch, I thought it was time to catch up on some reading.

    Does he mean he had a cold or flu or does he use M$ products ??
  • I too was dissapointed with the second ringworld book. This one is all Vintage Niven. Its worth the wait and the read

  • alternate title: (Score:2, Insightful)

    by sporkums ( 618106 )
    Ringworm's Children
  • The best hard SF these days is Ben Bova - at least until Kim Stanely Robinson comes out with Purple Mars.
    • Kim Stanely Robinson comes out with Purple Mars.

      So you didn't like Rainbow Mars?

  • Being Old (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Nom du Keyboard ( 633989 ) on Friday September 10, 2004 @06:42PM (#10217388)
    I like the fact that I was able to read and enjoy both Ringworld, and the rest of Known Space, near to the time frame they were written. They may be dated now, but so am I (or at least I've just dated myself). I still remember feeling how it might have felt like to stand on the floor of the Ringworld myself when I first read it. I've never had that feeling from any of the following books, but still remember it fondly. I feel sorry for modern readers who may never have that experience.

    I'll certainly read this new book at some point soon, though it is too much to hope that it can fully rekindle my first encounter with Mr. Niven's writing.

    Sometimes there's an advantage to being older.

  • I *love* the Ringworld and everything about it. Niven is one of my favorite authors of all time. Having said that.. This book was simply *horrible* when compared to his first 2 (hell, even the 3d one). The entire thing feels like he was looking for an "out" for the series and pieced together something just to meet a publishing requirement. Talk about Dues Ex Machina. He makes a big deal in the preface about "leaving the garden gate open so others may enjoy it" when ending a series so others can romp and c
  • Granted, it's been a few years since I read that book, but I recall liking it. Granted, it's not one of my favorite Sci-Fi books, or even my favorite Larry Niven book (that would probably be Integral Trees), but why do people pan Destiny's Road so much? Is it just that people put really high expectations on whatever Larry Niven writes?
    • It wandered too much. I remember getting to the part that had "speckles" recipies and I just groaned and stopped dead in my tracks. Didn't pick it up for another 2 years. Not horrible, just scattered.

    • Re:Destiny's Road? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by devphil ( 51341 )


      The ideas were absolutely top-notch (it's in the same story universe as Legacy of Heorot, Beowulf's Children, and the really early A World Out of Time), and the characters were pretty good, but the writing was sloppy. Names of people and places get changed, for example, like he decided to change the name but didn't quite finish the search-and-replace.

    • Destiny's road was very different from Niven's usual fare. I think because it was so different from what people expected, they reacted. In my personal opinion, Destiny's Road was one of his best.

      Bork!

  • Ringworld Builders (Score:2, Interesting)

    by klausner ( 92204 )
    I've always had a problem with the Pak as the builders of the Ringworld. They would have realized that it would just become a canvas for endless clan warfare on an enormous scale. It is also too fragile, and inherently indefensible.

    Of all the races that Niven introduced, I always thought that the Tnuctipun were the best candidates. If a bunch of them survived the Slaver War in stasis, they might be paranoid about travel and exploration. Look what they discovered last time! They also like to mess aroung wi

    • That's a good theory and one I never considered. Don't forget one reason the Pak built the ringworld was because it was immune to the radiation from the core explosion and they were from that area originally so had first hand knowledge of it.
    • The Pak would see nothing unusual about the Ringworld being wracked by endless clan warfare, as that's what they were accustomed to. As far as they were concerned, that's the way life was.
    • From Ringworld Engineers, the fall of the civilization, and thus the warfare, was due to the Puppeteers' meddling (planting the virus that ate all the superconductor material that all the technology depended on.) It was not due to the actions of those living inside the ring, and therefore was outside the scope of what the Pak predicted for.

  • 3 outta 4 ain't bad... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Kredal ( 566494 )
    I loved the first two ringworld books, couldn't stand the third, and liked this one.

    Half of the third book was about inter-species sex. (I forget the word for it, and I really don't care). In the fourth book, it's mentioned a couple times, happens a couple times, but is much much much much less prevalant than in the third.

    This one brings in more cool tech, some spiffy plot resolvers, and a few new tricks for Louis Wu. Thankfully, there is also plenty of backstory in the first few chapters, so if you ga

  • My Best Memory of Mr. Niven (Score:4, Informative)

    by Nom du Keyboard ( 633989 ) on Friday September 10, 2004 @06:54PM (#10217471)
    My favorite memory of meeting Larry Niven was sitting next to him at a banquet table during a SF convention, and having him pronounce the names of all his species (up to that time), and a couple character names to boot. And he did it too.

    (In "Kzinti", the "K" is silent.)

    • (In "Kzinti", the "K" is silent.)

      What about the 's' in Louis? Silent or not?


      • Silent.

        All through Engineers, various characters pronounce his name with every syllable equally emphasized, and its written like "Loo-ee Woo".

      • The 's' in Louis is silent, or so it would appear... I recall Harloprillalar (or one of the other Ringworld characters, I think) pronouncing it as "leewee wooo" in one of the books in... some situation, actually written out like that. I don't recall exactly what, but it was there.

        Surprised the fnard out of me, I'd been thinking of it as "Lewis Wu" up until then, and it kind of caused an identity crisis as one of my primary online nicknames at the time was LouisWu. Having your name change pronunciation o
    • I had a dream that Larry Niven showed up at a friend's wedding (this was a few weeks before the wedding was scheduled to take place, and yes they know each other) with an ice cream cart, and gave ice cream to everyone without explaining why, or who he was. Then he left again. I told my friend about this and she thought it over for a moment and said "you know, that sounds like something he'd do."

      She ended up inviting him just to see what would happen (of course nobody told him about the ice cream dream), b
  • When Larry Niven's Ringworld's Children came out in June, I picked up a copy and it's been sitting on my shelf since. I had been hesitating to read it because I didn't want to be disappointed by it as I had been by some of his other solo novels in the last decade (Destiny's Road, The Ringworld Throne).
    Uh... if you were so hesitant to read it, why did you buy it in the first place?
  • "Louis Wu woke aflame with new life, under a coffin lid."
    chapter 1 excerpt [tor.com]

    radio interview [writtenvoices.com] with Larry Niven on Ringworld's Children.

  • This review is a serious pain in the ass. It's not really a review: it's a plot summary, loaded with spoilers. We get the general drift that the reader enjoyed the book, but that's it.

    My third grade teacher used to grade very poorly for book reports that were nothing but plot summaries, and so should Slashdot.

    -Lep
  • All you namby whining naysayers notwithstanding, Niven's work is generally good reading and hangs together well.

    I am looking forward to reading his new one.

    But if any of his work gets made into a movie and sequels, It absolutely has to be Mote.

    Somebody contact Peter Jackson to see if he's got some time to do this one. Can't think of anyone who could do it better, IMO.

    Other than Niven and Pournelle, I enjoy Christopher Anvil's Kings Legions and Royal Road universe, with his Intersteller Patrol. Guess the

  • I read the book about two months ago. I have mixed feelings.

    On the bad side, it's too short and too densely packed. I felt like I was being rushed from one thing to another so quickly that I couldn't figure out what was going on. The book required me to notice very subtle details, when I missed one I felt like ''huh?'' and had to go back and re-read before I realized, "oh, that explains it." I thought Wembleth came off as a pathetic character (although I understand why he had to be that way -- a ringworld

  • I stopped halfway through Ringworld Throne because I just couldn't figure out what was going on in the story. One thing that Niven does a lot is try to make the people in the book talk to each other realisticly. Realisticly, two people who are both well versed in a subject won't explain to each other every detail of it. They'll leave stuff out. Niven likes to use this in his dialogues, leaving the reader hanging as to what's actually going on until several pages later. For example, in Ringworld Enginee
  • The Ringworld is like a small slice of a Dyson Sphere, a massive ring with radius slightly larger than 1 AU, spun to simulate gravity on the inside with thousand mile-high side walls to hold atmosphere.

    I'm not a big science fiction reader, but reading the above reminded me of Clarke's Rendezvous with Rama.

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