ITunes Overcharging in the UK 77
KennyMillar writes "The BBC is reporting that the OFT (Office of Fair Trading) has ruled that Apple is overcharging for iTunes downloads in the UK. They have referred the case to the European Commission for a ruling. One important note is that UK iTunes customers cannot buy from the French or German iTunes Stores, and this goes against European Freedom of Trade rules. A spokesman from OD2 agreed that people in the UK should not be charged more than customers in the Eurozone. I've emailed Apple asking for 20% refund on all my downloads, but I won't hold my breath!"
Consumer Globalism (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, in this case, Apple is probably just passing on the policies set by the recording companies in their contracts. If my guess is right, then hopefully they can use this ruling to get more equitable terms in their contracts.
Re:Consumer Globalism (Score:2)
I'm sure its the record companies that have dictated the pricing structure, but with exange rates, even if apple changed the price so it was more in line with the Euro using countries, the value of the currency could change again.
I guess you could do it dynamicaly, but $0.83-
Re:Consumer Globalism (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Consumer Globalism (Score:2)
Re:So What? (Score:2)
Re:So What? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
DVD parallel? (Score:2, Interesting)
Wouldn't the same principles forbid use of CSS to charge different prices for DVDs in different regions? Is this why DVD vendors in the UK are free to sell "region free" DVD players without any hassle?
Re:DVD parallel? (Score:5, Informative)
No, because there's only a single DVD region for the EU (and even other countries outside the EU, like Switzerland).
The iTunes case is about different prices inside the EU. A German guy is free to buy a car in Spain. A UK resident can't buy a song from the French iTMS. That's likely to be illegal.
Re:DVD parallel? (Score:2)
The European Union is Like a Schizophrenic Lawyer (Score:5, Interesting)
Seriously, if the European Union would get off it's butt and actually make the various European versions of the RIAA offer the same licensing across all of Europe, like they have already ordered them too, then this would not be an issue. Apple charges different prices because they are charged different prices. Now the UK has ruled that Apple is violating a EU law, but obeying it would break the law in any given member of the European Union. This is largely a matter of considering intellectual property to be a good or service, when sold by Apple, but not otherwise considered a good or service across the EU as a whole.
Mostly this is just the UK pissing and moaning because they are getting ripped off more by their RIAA clone than other countries are and they want Apple to do something about it. Apple doesn't really care how much the songs cost, they just want them as cheap as possible. They don't even make any money on the issue, it is just a way to get people to buy computers and mp3 players.
I'm sure this will result in the EU ordering each country to license IP across the EU under the same terms as locally, and in another 10 years most of the countries will actually get around to doing so. In the mean time, Apple will fight things out in the courts, stop selling in the UK, raise prices across all of the EU, or take a loss selling into the UK for the sake of good will. None of which seems like a good deal for anyone involved.
Re:The European Union is Like a Schizophrenic Lawy (Score:1)
Re:The European Union is Like a Schizophrenic Lawy (Score:3, Informative)
If the IP providers object, they can be easily taken to court, everybody's happy.
If only it were that easy. There is no actual law that says IP providers have to offer the same price as IP providers in other EU countries. (There is an EU directive for each country to pass laws to that effect.) And a license to music is contingent upon your location under laws in most EU member states (Thanks to pressure from the U.S.). The problem is that the UK council is not seeing is that according to EU law, Apple
Re:The European Union is Like a Schizophrenic Lawy (Score:2)
>although their end user license says you can
>only buy from the country in which you reside,
And this is the problem, not really that one charge different prices in different countries (or even within a country, happens for almost anything). Someone in UK is allowed to buy from France without there being allowed to be any restrictions or problems that does not exist also from someone in France. This is clearly not the case here.
Re:The European Union is Like a Schizophrenic Lawy (Score:2)
Someone in UK is allowed to buy from France without there being allowed to be any restrictions or problems that does not exist also from someone in France.
Try thinking of it in terms of something else that is regulated by law individually in each country. For example, Suppose a company was selling hovercraft operating correspondence classes, including a hovercraft operators permit. In each country the end result for the user is the same, they know how to operate a hovercraft and have permission to do s
Re:The European Union is Like a Schizophrenic Lawy (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:The European Union is Like a Schizophrenic Lawy (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:The European Union is Like a Schizophrenic Lawy (Score:3, Interesting)
How else do you explain that prices in the UK are almost twice steeper than those in the US?
The prices are higher, probably because they are being charged a different price by the UK version of the RIAA. Obviously I don't know that for certain, since the agreement is a trade secret, but I do know that Apple has publicly stated that the iTunes Music Store is a break even proposition for them, and they have told their shareholders that they are operating it to promote ipods. You can find both of those as
Re:The European Union is Like a Schizophrenic Lawy (Score:2)
Re:The European Union is Like a Schizophrenic Lawy (Score:1)
Re:The European Union is Like a Schizophrenic Lawy (Score:2)
This has nothing to do with intelectual property. It's like if they had a shop in france and charged english people who came into it 20% more due to their accent.
Yup, just like that. Well, except if they had different shops for each country and were selling music online, and charged prices based upon your credit card's billing address.
Do you really think this is a discrimination issue? Against the British?!? They are selling at different prices because they are selling different products. It costs a
Re:The European Union is Like a Schizophrenic Lawy (Score:1)
Re:The European Union is Like a Schizophrenic Lawy (Score:4, Insightful)
Who are apple to come along and say whats what in the EU?
Umm, Apple is just caught between conflicting laws. It's the EU and the UK who is saying what is what. Apple negotiated a price with the BPI, added their expenses, then picked a round number close to it. If the EU can't license music for the same price across all it's member countries, why should Apple be tasked with sorting it out? If you have to sell for the same price, fine charge Apple the same price, if not, fine don't complain when Apple sells different things for different prices. Guess what, the BPI won't sell music across it's borders at all, that is because it is illegal. Apple is just running a whole series of stores selling different products (different due to the fact that the laws on pricing and sales are differnt) in different countries. Consumers may see a song as being the same, but until the law reflects that fact, Apple can't be expected to pass laws and change it.
Re:The European Union is Like a Schizophrenic Lawy (Score:3, Informative)
I can go and order a book from a French bookshop over the net, I then pay what someone in France would (possibly higher postage). The French shop can't say I must go to their Swedi
Re:The European Union is Like a Schizophrenic Lawy (Score:2)
I can go and order a book from a French bookshop over the net, I then pay what someone in France would
It's true, you can. But you can't order an e-book from a store in France. The reason is that a book is physical purchase that happens to have intellectual property already published on it. The other is a license to a copy of intellectual property which someone in France does not have the rights to sell you, since the right to publish it in your country is owned by a different party. Get it?
Re:The European Union is Like a Schizophrenic Lawy (Score:2)
Re:The European Union is Like a Schizophrenic Lawy (Score:2)
Re:The European Union is Like a Schizophrenic Lawy (Score:2)
it is possible to buy CDs from any other EU country, so it should be possible with online music downloads.
When you buy a CD, you buy a CD. When you buy an mp3, or AAC file, you are buying a license to make a copy (Actually several copies) for your own use, in your country. One is a purchase of a physical object, one is a license to intellectual property. Just because intellectual property laws are stupid, don't blame Apple. They are just stuck between two conflicting laws.
Re:The European Union is Like a Schizophrenic Lawy (Score:2)
someone is breaking european law by placing restrictions on the trade and movement of goods in europe.
As far as I know, intellectual property has never before been included in the "goods and services" that the EU is regulating. I think the close parallel between this intellectual property, and the already published CD which is normally sold, is the reason for people to want it treated in the same manner.
will the price be based in euros or pounds? (Score:3, Interesting)
at this moment, the easiest thing to do is to lower the british price to 0.69 pounds, which is consistent with the exchange rate. it may fluctuate - how much of a fluctuation is considered ok? or should apple open up iTMS for the entire european continent and accept credit cards from everywhere? how often will they have to change the prices with the exchange rate? will apple keep 0.99 euros and change the british price or keep 0.69 pounds and change the euro price?
Re:will the price be based in euros or pounds? (Score:2)
(though i don't know how much they have to pay in other costs so the profit may still be the same.)
Re:will the price be based in euros or pounds? (Score:4, Interesting)
Apple's an American company. They should just set the price at $0.99 and let everyone do the math at checkout.
99 US cents = 0.74 Euro cent = 51 pence
99 Euro cent = $1.33 = 68 pence
79 pence = $1.53 = 1.14 Euro
So going with UK units, the US and Europe get screwed. With Euro pricing, the US gets screwed, while the UK gets a drop in price. Pricing based on the dollar, the US stays the same, and both Europe and the UK get a bargain. Sounds like a win/win for everyone!
I mean, really, think of the slogan:
"One world. One price. One dollar."
(or is that too....er...militaristic?)
Re:will the price be based in euros or pounds? (Score:3, Insightful)
Apple's an American company. They should just set the price at $0.99 and let everyone do the math at checkout.
It is not a matter of exchange rates. Apple has to license the songs from a different organization, for a different price, in each country. All they can do to be compliant is either charge an average across the EU, funneling money from one EU country's version of the RIAA to another's version of the RIAA, or set the price as the highest price in any EU country and charge more money in some coun
Re:will the price be based in euros or pounds? (Score:3, Interesting)
Yeah, I sorta deliberately glossed over that.
On the other hand, if they only sell *from the US server*, then do they really need to license in each country?
A further modification of my slogan:
"One world. One song. One price."
After all, it's the same bloody song no matter where you buy it, screw those other countries' licensing schemes. The artist will still get paid, right, whether the purchase comes
Re:will the price be based in euros or pounds? (Score:3, Informative)
Yes.
The artist will still get paid, right, whether the purchase comes from the US store or the UK store. Right?
No. The copyright holders might be different in different countries. It's not unusual to sell one's rights in something to different people domestically and abroad. Plus, copyright isn't (and shouldn't be) standard worldwide.
You should be allowed to buy from wherever the hell you p
Re:will the price be based in euros or pounds? (Score:2)
Agreed - and I don't have any easy answer for that. However, I don't think that anyone would say that you should surrender your CDs when you travel overseas (and especially not when you *move* overseas). So why should a purchase from a foreign country be any different? So long as what you purchase is legal where you pur
Re:will the price be based in euros or pounds? (Score:2)
Since the first sale doctrine only applies to copies lawfully made under US law, foreign imports generally don't qualify. (reimports would, though)
The only ones that are okay fall under the 602 exemption, both halves of which must be satisfied. Thus, imports that don't fall under 109 are only okay if they are 1) authorized by the US rights holder, or 2) both f
Re:will the price be based in euros or pounds? (Score:2)
Plus, credit card companies do not use the mid-rate when converting currency - you always lose a few pence each way.
Uk doesn't use the Euro, why again??? (Score:3, Interesting)
The Euro has increased a lot in value relative to other currencies this year so it would make sense that it seems like overcharging. Much like the dollar vs. the canadian dollar. There is no equity in currency values.
The Ecomists big mac index [economist.com] shows that big macs cost different ammounts in different places, even adjusted for currency differences. Why wouldn't music?
Is apple expected to change the cost of songs every couple months due to currency valuations?
Re:Uk doesn't use the Euro, why again??? (Score:5, Informative)
The prices have never been equivalent to the exchange rates (not even close). The UK store has consistently been more expensive. This is probably because the record companies think they can get away with it (as they do with CDs), not because of exchange rate difficulties.
It's really a bit of a farce that they're forced to have different stores in different countries anyway. Apple would probably prefer to just have one store and let the user change their language/music preferences, but the music companies have too much to lose from allowing a global marketplace in their IP, so they're trying to hold out as long as possible.
As with regional DVD encoding it'll probably die a quiet death somewhere between 2010 and 2020.
Re:Uk doesn't use the Euro, why again??? (Score:1, Offtopic)
Re:Uk doesn't use the Euro, why again??? (Score:1)
Re:Uk doesn't use the Euro, why again??? (Score:1)
Re:Uk doesn't use the Euro, why again??? (Score:2)
17.5 in the UK
19.6 in France
16 in Germany
I don't think that really has a big effect on the price differences - France and Germany have the same price for example.
I'm sure most of the customers would have loved a europe-wide store too - I know I would like to be able to buy stuff from the UK & Germany in France and vice-versa, at the moment many of the other countries' artists are missing. Seems frustrating that the multi-national record comp
Re:Uk doesn't use the Euro, why again??? (Score:1)
ps: (Belgium 21%) I know you said 'big'
Your all missing the point... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:_Your_ all missing the point... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Your all missing the point... (Score:2)
there is obviously still some separation between the UK and the rest of the EU..... and that's the kinda thing that should cost them -full access to other privledges -should require- full participation in the EU
Refund? Why? (Score:3, Insightful)
Now certainly you have a right to complain and say it's unfair that they charge difference prices in different countries. But I certainly don't think there's a valid argument for getting a even a partial refund.
Re:Refund? Why? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Refund? Why? (Score:2)
No, apple didn't give you the choice of buying from another EU country which is illegal in the EU, but it did give you the choice of buying the music or not buying the music. And the author of the article agreed to buy the music for the agreed price and hence has to pay for it at that price. The
Re:Refund? Why? (Score:2)
However I know essentially nothing of the relevant EU business law, so this is theoretical.
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Refund? Why? (Score:1)
You cannot refuse to sell to someone in another member state, how you arrange your suppliers is your issue, if you cannot meet that law because your suppliers cannot agree then you don't sell their product. It doesn't matter if its music or beans the same rules apply, the whole idea of IP rights being involved is rubbish, thats apple's problem.
Re: (Score:2)
You are wrong pal, please stop it. (Score:2)
It is that simple.
Re:You are wrong pal, please stop it. (Score:2)
I seriously doubt Apple made a separate UK store just because they felt like it. Why would they have two European stores if there wasn't some other reason?
I think dictating which store you can use is a result of copyright/licensing issues. Making you buy from one store or another is probably legally valid in that context. Bear in mind that Apple would probably be violating licensing terms with the record compan
Re:UK & Euro (Score:1)
Inacurate title (Score:3, Informative)
Bob
Re:Inacurate title (Score:2)
that means that we in the UK may be able to get cheaper songs from the EU store
Except that doing so is not legal, according to UK law since only the UK recording industry has rights to sell songs in the UK. Actually the issue is the same price, since the EU law states that you have to offer the same price to all EU members. They need to fix their intellectual property laws.
Re:Inacurate title (Score:4, Informative)
The EU law does not say that you must offer it at the same price to all EU members, it says that you must allow all EU members to buy from any place they like.
Bob
Re:Inacurate title (Score:2)
but they are not selling the song in the UK, they are selling it in france, or germany etc. it just so happens that we in the UK could access it (as we can order a cd from the german amazon).
for me it's simple. I can mail order things from overseas, including music. so why can I not buy music from overseas itunes stores? I can see that the record companies would find this worrying, but tough, that's the law and they need to deal with
save the british pound!! (Score:1)
Anyway, maybe this might backfire and the EU will force the European equivalents of the RIAA to standardise over the whole EU. Who knows?
ci
Re: (Score:2)