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Television Media Movies Hardware Your Rights Online

New DRM Scheme To Make Current DVD Players Obsolete 544

Posted by michael from the happy-happy-joy-joy dept.
Oneflower writes "ExtremeTech reports that a proposed new DRM scheme could make current DVD players obsolete. The scheme, from Hewlett-Packard and Philips, targets DVD+R and DVD+RW and is an attempt to enforce the FCC broadcast flag on DVD recorders."
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New DRM Scheme To Make Current DVD Players Obsolete More

New DRM Scheme To Make Current DVD Players Obsolete

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  • Nothing to see here, please move along (Score:3, Funny)

    by LiquidCoooled ( 634315 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @11:42AM (#11276734) Homepage Journal
    New DRM Scheme To Make Current Slashdot stories Obsolete

  • Hurrah! (Score:5, Funny)

    by maskedbishounen ( 772174 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @11:42AM (#11276737)
    Yet Another Star Wars Boxset to buy!

    • Re:Hurrah! (Score:5, Funny)

      by Tackhead ( 54550 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @11:50AM (#11276874)
      > Yet Another Star Wars Boxset to buy!

      The more you tighten your grip, Ms. Fiorina, the more engineering talent will slip through your fingers.

      • Re:Hurrah! (Score:4, Funny)

        by ultranova ( 717540 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @02:33PM (#11279293)

        The more you tighten your grip, Ms. Fiorina, the more engineering talent will slip through your fingers.

        Not after we demonstrate the power of our lawyers. In a way, you have determined the choice of the poor bastard that'll be sued first. Since you are reluctant to provide us with the location of the SuprNova mirror, I have chosen to test the DMCA's destructive power... on your ISP.

  • No Big Deal (Score:4, Informative)

    by mr.henry ( 618818 ) * on Thursday January 06, 2005 @11:42AM (#11276738) Journal
    For example, the VCTS the DRM solution will only work with the single- and dual-layer versions of DVD+R and DVD+RW media, not the "-R" counterparts.

    DVD-R is the preferred recordable DVD flavor for movies these days. It's cheaper than +R and more compatible with DVD players.

    FU CARLY

    • Really? With the exception of price (and it is not that much) I have had way more success with +R's then -R's. In fact I could never get the -R to work properly on my dvd player. I forget the exact model, but I have a DVD/VCR sony combo player. It plays VCD's also (about two years old). I have never been able to get a -R to play on it and I use the same process to burn to a -R that I do to my +R's

      • Re:No Big Deal (Score:5, Insightful)

        by PhilHibbs ( 4537 ) <snarks@gmail.com> on Thursday January 06, 2005 @12:14PM (#11277250) Journal
        You shouldn't have bought a Sony if you want to do anything other than play pre-recorded discs from the machine's primary region. Sony are not a technology company any more, they're a content company.

    • Re:No Big Deal (Score:3, Interesting)

      by stupidfoo ( 836212 )
      FU CARLY
      No kidding...

      Wow, thanks HP and Phillips. Really looking out for your customers, aren't you?

      Not that I was planning on buying anything DVD related from those two companies in the future, but I will be avoiding them like the plague now. And advising my family and friends to do the same.
    • I thought most TV recorders used DVD+RW discs? My Philips does, and so do the sub-£200 ones imported from Spain.

      Can't be long though before the Chinese start making DVD TV recorders. With any luck, they'll even include an AGC that doesn't get thrown by crap in the retrace period .....

    • Huh? The +R format is compatible BY DESIGN (Score:4, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 06, 2005 @01:43PM (#11278473)
      DVD-R is the preferred recordable DVD flavor for movies these days. It's cheaper than +R and more compatible with DVD players.

      ROFL. Slashdot man speaks with forked tongue.

      DVD+R was designed specifically to have a format that is compatible with the DVD-movie standard. In other words, a DVD movie player doesn't even need to know about DVD+R to be able to play movies written to a DVD+R disk. It's hard to get more compatible than that, and I'm proving the compatibility daily on my antique DVD movie-only players.

      No other DVD format is compatible with DVD movie in this way. All the other formats require the player to have been programmed explicitly to handle them.

      • Re:Huh? The +R format is compatible BY DESIGN (Score:3, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Bullshit. Check this page [videohelp.com] and see how many players can read -R but not +R.

        +R is significantly less compatible.

  • HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Turn-X Alphonse ( 789240 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @11:42AM (#11276743) Journal
    This is never going to happen, no one is going to go and buy a new DVD player for some new crappy wannabe-standard. They'll try it and fail, next please!

    • Re:HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! (Score:4, Funny)

      by MikeMacK ( 788889 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @11:59AM (#11277016)
      This has Betamax written all over it.
      • This has Betamax written all over it.

        It already has Digital Video Express (DiVX) written all over it. Adding Betamax on top of that could only improve its chances!

    • Re:HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! (Score:4, Insightful)

      by 16K Ram Pack ( 690082 ) <tim.almond@NETBSDgmail.com minus bsd> on Thursday January 06, 2005 @12:12PM (#11277210) Homepage
      You can only introduce a standard at the same time as making a significant contribution to what people get.

      MP3 still rules music because it's good enough and small enough. Other formats may be better/smaller, but they aren't better/smaller enough to warrant people wanting to swap.

    • By law June 2005 is the last month any equipment can be made to ignore broadcast flags.

      This is the new standard whether we like it or not since many dvd makers will be fined if they do not include the drm.

      Isn't corruption great?
      • By law June 2005 is the last month any equipment can be made to ignore broadcast flags.

        By law where, exactly? It sure as hell isn't law here in the UK, and I'm betting our export market in DRM-free DVD players/recorders will get an enormous boost around July 2005 if that's the case where you are. :-)

        • That's okay. It isn't actually law in the US, either. Rather, this is an example of an executive-branch agency (the FCC) attempting to emulate legislation - and then, over a domain where their jurisdiction is anywhere from tenuous to nonexistent.

        • It sure as hell isn't law here in the UK, and I'm betting our export market in DRM-free DVD players/recorders will get an enormous boost around July 2005 if that's the case where you are.

          If such a law actually exists (and I'm not convinced it does), then it would only apply to the US. However, players imported into the US would have to adhere to the US regulations. Namely, if the law says the players must obey a "broadcast" flag, then the players coming in from overseas would have to be modified for sal
        • By law June 2005 is the last month any equipment can be made to ignore broadcast flags.

          This is the new standard whether we like it or not since many dvd makers will be fined if they do not include the drm.

        Yes the law mandates equipment not ignore the broadcast flag, but I don't recall it mandating new MEDIA that are incompatible with existing drives.

        As far as accepting it, I suspect this is going to be one of those issues that gets enough of the general public pissed to get something done. When su

    • Nothing to do with players .... (Score:5, Informative)

      by gstoddart ( 321705 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @12:56PM (#11277839) Homepage
      This is never going to happen, no one is going to go and buy a new DVD player for some new crappy wannabe-standard. They'll try it and fail, next please!


      Actually, from R'ing TFA, the article headline is very misleading. This will not make any change to current DVD players. It makes changes to make the recorders obey the evil bit/broadcast flag.

      The fact that they expect the media and the players to cost more once this is in place (so Hitachi can get their royalties of course) is going to slow adoption of this.

      Cheers

  • Not very likely.... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Homology ( 639438 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @11:42AM (#11276744)
    that my DVD players/writers come obsolete anytime soon. I use them for writing data, not playing/recording movies. Besides, users don't like forced obsolence of hardware anyway.

  • So? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by AviLazar ( 741826 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @11:43AM (#11276746) Journal
    And a hack will be made, a firmware update released and in the end we will be back to what we are doing today. Not to mention this will take a LOT of time until it comes out and becomes mainstream (how many people are going to change their dvd players/recorders....meaning they won't be buying this new media format for a while)

    • Re:So? (Score:5, Informative)

      by OECD ( 639690 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @12:00PM (#11277042) Journal

      And a hack will be made, a firmware update released and in the end we will be back to what we are doing today.

      Weird thing is, they seem to acknowledge that:

      From TFA: "In large part, the issue with the new players will solve itself," said Chris Buma, an A/V program manager with Philips Consumer Electronics, at a press conference held by the DVD+RW Alliance here. "It is a restriction, but a restriction that can be overcome."

      • Re:So? (Score:3, Interesting)

        by AviLazar ( 741826 )
        Which is a rarity in and of itself -- usually companies do not like to discuss the potential of people overcoming their restrictions.

  • In a related story... (Score:5, Funny)

    by unixbugs ( 654234 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @11:43AM (#11276751)
    Three people shocked by news of planned obsolescence in consumer products!

  • Protecting me from who? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by grub ( 11606 ) <slashdot@grub.net> on Thursday January 06, 2005 @11:44AM (#11276763) Homepage Journal

    from the article, emphasis mine: Hewlett-Packard and Philips said Wednesday that they have developed a content-protection system for DVDs, designed to protect users from burning "protected" DTV broadcasts.

    How on earth does this "protect users"? It only tries to protect the bottom line of media megacorporations. Being manufacturers of the physical drive units I don't doubt they may try backtracking and manufacturing drives for stand-alone DVD players which only play +R(W) media, too, thus locking out the -R(W) media which won't work with this new scheme.[0]

    Fortunately the general public seems to be getting more tech savvy (the refusal to accept Circuit City's Divx scheme, rising awareness of spyware and solutions, etc) so hopefully people will see this as it is: a money grab.

    [0] - a bit of irony on Philips part there I think; I just picked up a Philips DVP642 DVD player which can also play divx and xvid on cdr/dvdr/etc. Surely they know the great bulk of those are downloaded.
    • It protects users from lawsuits that the media companies will be filling against everybody who didn't upgrade to the "protected" player and who must therefor be a dirty pirate.

    • Re:Protecting me from who? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by LiquidCoooled ( 634315 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @11:49AM (#11276847) Homepage Journal
      The best part of the article comes from:
      The VCTS scheme will also be built into next-generation media, which will slowly replace the non-DRM encoded DVD+R discs over time. The new discs will be somewhat more expensive than their DRM-free counterparts, explained Jun Ishihara, a product manager for Mitsubishi Chemical Media Co., also known as Verbatim. Likewise, the new players will probably be priced somewhat higher than conventional players, HP executives said, although pricing will be up to individual manufacturers.

      "So" says the guy in the shop, "your telling me that I have to pay more for less? And this is in my best interests? Your protecting me from what exactly?"

      • Re:Protecting me from who? (Score:5, Funny)

        by LWATCDR ( 28044 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @12:23PM (#11277388) Homepage Journal
        You are being protected from pirates that run the large media companies out of business. With out those large media companies you would not have such great entertainment as "Friends" and "Biodome". These companies need to make billions of dollars so the can pay these actors and singer tens of millions of dollars. I mean who would slave away for six months are years on a sitcom for less then an million a year. They might as well be a greater at Walmart or pick tomatoes for that kind of money.
        I mean lets face it John Travolta worked hard for that 11 million to buy a zeppelin. The head of Sony might have to get a smaller jet if we do not do something now! It is to save you from a world with out sitcoms and mindless movies. You need to start helping yourself. Send you money right now to
        Save the poor Millionaires
        666 Sony Way
        Santa Anna CA.

        Or you can buy my book called "Who is stealing from you?" just send $500 dollars to me and I will let you know who is ripping you off. I promise that I will provide you with information about someone that has taken at least 500 dollars from you in a totally legal if unethical way. Makes a great gift as well.

      • Sounds a lot like "audio CD-R media" to me, which cost at least twice as much as general-purpose data CD-R's, due to the piracy levy, and are flagged so that you can't record them with the $30 CD-RW drive in your PC, you have to buy a separate $200 CD deck.

        That idea never caught on outside of a small niche, and neither will this one.
        • Oh if only that were true.

          Music CD-Rs work just fine in regular $20 CD-R drives, and tons of consumers are stupid enough to think you *need* the music ones if you want to burn music.
      • Why make such a fuss about the DVD companies forcing an upgrade? We have been letting MS force upgrades for years and still keep paying more for less! I'll bet you are using windows XP and office 2003! As for me, I'll continue with WIN2000 and Office 97 as long as they work. Security?; Mozilla and a good virus program with daily updates. If your word document does not format properly on older versions, who do you think is the problem?

        Seriously, the DRM problem, real or perceived, has to be addresses and s

      • Well yeah sure, the new blank disks might be more expensive. But since they'll be stop the darn pirates dead in their tracks, the companies that provide content will be making lots more money. And I'm sure that'll result in much lower prices for the consumer!

        Your bitter cynicism troubles me. Must you be so negative?

    • You have been protected.
    • How on earth does this "protect users"?

      You are using the word "protect" in the old, unfashionable sense.

      The new meaning (popularized by the true cancer of the Earth - human greed, incarnate here in the ever growing metastasis of megacorporations, always looking for more resources to eat into and exploit, eventually killing the host organism in the process), the new meaning of the word "Protect", is, of course, no secret here, "To hinder from, to restrict". Just as in the good old meaning of the more p
    • [0] - a bit of irony on Philips part there I think; I just picked up a Philips DVP642 DVD player which can also play divx and xvid on cdr/dvdr/etc. Surely they know the great bulk of those are downloaded.

      I think rather than irony this is a fun example of how geeks can pull one over on increasingly clueless higher ups - to upper management at Phillips Divx is nothing more than another item on a checkbox list of features!! I'll bet some guy got Divx added in just that way. It's what I would do, were I wor

  • Even if that worked... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by the_mad_poster ( 640772 ) <shattoc@adelphia.com> on Thursday January 06, 2005 @11:44AM (#11276777) Homepage Journal
    It's not like I can't just stop watching DVDs.

    There's a threshold to just how much crap people will put up with it. Mine and some fellow geeks may have lower thresholds, but eventually the public threshold will be met as well and the companies that keep pulling these silly stunts will get a thrashing in the form of competition that treats customers like customers, not like crooks.

    • Competition is already here (Score:4, Insightful)

      by sterno ( 16320 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @12:15PM (#11277266) Homepage
      They already are getting that competition in the form of the Internet. The average American spends 30 minutes less time watching TV on a daily basis because of the Internet.

      Ultimately, TV and Movies are just another form of entertainment. If they make access to these things expensive and inconvenient, people will simply choose another way to be entertained. They'll go watch the latest e-mail from strong bad. They'll download some fan produced star wars movie. They won't have to pay a dime and ultimately they'll be as entertained, if not more so, than they were from TV and Movies.

      So go ahead mega media empires. Go ahead and DRM and freak out about all of this, and watch it all crumble underneath your feet. We are your CUSTOMERS, and you are supposed to provide us a service. If you actually think that intentionally introducing confusing, complicated, and inflexible products will make us more willing to give you money, you need to get into rehab.

  • sue! (Score:4, Funny)

    by pcp_ip ( 612017 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @11:45AM (#11276780) Homepage
    Lets sue them [slashdot.org] for making me have to buy a new DVD player

  • If the eye can see it, or the ear can hear it.... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by SirFozzie ( 442268 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @11:45AM (#11276791)
    It can be recorded/copied.

    When are they going to learn?

  • >Guess what? Your DVD player might now be obsolete.

    consumers have the money companies want. consumers decide what's worth their money. if these companies think they can just release a product that will make DVD players obsolete and consumers will accept it, they are dead wrong.

    it has nothing to do with rights or DRM, it's a simple matter of average joe's seeing that things doesn't work the way they used to. and he/she will not buy any more of them because these things "don't work."

    • Re:yeah, right... (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Billly Gates ( 198444 )
      What if consumers do not know?

      After all we all now use macrovision and many of us bought new TV's because we could not figure out why we could not watch some certain movies. I know my parents did and it was years later until I found about Macrovision.

      This new standard will be standard. It has to be by law. June 2005 is the deadline for the old standard to become obsolute under the DMCA.

      Its also a crime punishable to 10 years in prison to copy movies you own or practice fair use.

      The US government is alwa

  • New DVD DRM? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by paulschroeder ( 757739 )
    It almost makes me want to dust off my VCR until everyone stops trying to create a new format every other week. At least then I know I can still buy tapes that work with it and never have to worry about them forcing betamax or something equally silly on me.

    • Re:New DVD DRM? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by siastbill1 ( 826208 )
      Yah, that's why I still have a lot of laserdiscs lying around. The video quality is pretty good (slightly less than DVD), the sound is incredible (uncompressed PCM, and sometimes even AC3), and they work in every player ever made. And the extra neat bonus is that they don't have any Macrovision, or any other form of copy protection. I kinda miss the laserdisc days, since they really cared about compatability. When laserdisc started to implement Dolby Digital, they decided that they needed to do it in a wa
  • ... as I can only imagine how valuable all my old burners and players will become on eBay...

    :-) (for the humor impaired)

    ---

    Guess I should add "Bids" as well as comments here [blogspot.com] ;-)

  • "Hewlett-Packard and Philips said Wednesday that they have developed a content-protection system for DVDs, designed to protect users from burning "protected" DTV broadcasts."

    In other news, 15 years ago a woman in Lithuania gave birth to a kid who will crack the new scheme shortly after his sixteenth birthday.

  • Dearest Consumer, (Score:5, Funny)

    by Black Parrot ( 19622 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @11:49AM (#11276845)


    In order to secure our profits, you must go out and buy new hardware.

    • Re:Dearest Consumer, (Score:5, Funny)

      by Gauchito ( 657370 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @12:36PM (#11277586)
      You forgot: If that money isn't in the hands of competent, patriotic American companies, it goes to the terrorists. So ask yourself: How much do I love America?

      Protect our schools from the terrorist threat. Buy our new hardware.

      Do it for the children.

  • The proper response (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    is to just not buy ANY of this DRM stuff.

    Stop sending money to the MPAA and RIAA by buying the goods which support them.

    If they don't have money, they can't buy congress-kritters. If they don't have money, they will wither away and become dust.

  • The market will decide... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by seanellis ( 302682 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @11:49AM (#11276857) Homepage Journal
    ...and they will drop this like a hot potato. Any recorder that does not allow you to get round this will be dead in the water.

    The same thing has happened with multi-region DVD players here in Europe. If it doesn't have a way to get round the illegal-restriction-of-trade technology, then people simply won't touch it.

    Every player in every store now has a hastily applied sticker saying "Multi-Region!". Once the new recorders come out, word will get around about any models that can be bypassed, and sales will take off, leaving others face down in the dust.

    And, of course, since US companies aren't allowed to do this, only overseas companies who deliver to several markets will have a legitimate excuse.

    So, congratulations, once again US legislators are outsourcing American jobs and increasing the trade deficit.

    Well done!

    • Re:The market will decide... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by payndz ( 589033 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @12:41PM (#11277647)
      Every player in every store now has a hastily applied sticker saying "Multi-Region!"

      They don't even bother doing that any more, because it's pretty much taken as read that all players, certainly here in the UK, are multi-region out of the box. I just bought a cheapy-cheapo 14" TV/DVD portable for the bedroom, which didn't have any mention of multi-region, but that didn't bother me much because the bulk of my DVDs are now R2. But I tried an R1 disc anyway - and whaddya know, it worked!

      AFAIK, the only name-brand players on the high street that aren't already multi-region (or at least hackable via remote) are Sony, because their ties with Columbia-Tristar mean they have a vested interest in maintaining the blatantly consumer-unfriendly region coding system alive. But even then, you can probably get chipped Sony players for a minimal premium from places like Richer Sounds anyway.

      Considering how DVD has taken off - way above what the corporations behind it expected - I think they've made a rod for their own profit-projecting backs. VHS has had a highly profitable lifespan of, what, 20+ years? No way is Joe Consumer going to buy his favourite films all over again in just five years simply because there's new premium-priced hardware to sell and stronger region coding/DRM to enforce!

      • Re:The market will decide... (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Inda ( 580031 ) <slash.20.inda@spamgourmet.com> on Thursday January 06, 2005 @01:54PM (#11278675) Journal
        Do you know who we have to thank for the fact the every DVD player sold in the UK is multi-region?

        Tescos, Asda Walmart and Sainsburys.

        The supermarkets have reputations to keep. If the average shopper cannot play every disk under the sun then he returns the DVD player with no questions asked. He also grumbles about the supermarket to all his friends in the traditional British way.

        Tescos want everyone to be happy with their purchases. They want everyone to be happy with their cheap 30 pound player. Everyone is happy, including me.

  • Now is the time... (Score:5, Funny)

    by zenmojodaddy ( 754377 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @11:51AM (#11276878)
    ... to buy a shedload of cheap DVD players and VCRs unencumbered by any of this crap. Keep 'em in the loft 'til they're needed, wheel 'em out one by one as they break.

    Unless... this is a scheme to make us buy shedloads of cheap DVD players and VCRs. Argh! What's the conscientious paranoid supposed to do with himself nowadays?

  • Not going to change anything (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Sargeant Slaughter ( 678631 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @11:51AM (#11276889) Homepage
    First of all, the standard is not going to catch on. People are not going to run out and buy a new DVD player so they can buy new movies that are the same quality as the ones the already own. The only way this might work would be to outlaw the selling of the old DVDs. Thats not going to happen. Secondly, this is stupid anyway because it doesn't do anything to stop VCD/SVCDs. The majority of the downloads I see on bittorrent sites are not 4GB, they are more like 1.5 or 1 GB and they are usually Mpeg format, for burning to VCDs. I am sure some manufacturers will be able to make a version of these new DVD players that play VCDs, and they will sell! Just like the old players. The people behind that anouncement are probably just trying to appease a bunch of idiots in Hollywood.

    • The people behind that anouncement are probably just trying to appease a bunch of idiots in Hollywood.

      This may be true, but in the meantime a lot of time, energy and money is going to be wasted that could be going into something innovative.

      One of the definitions of insanity is exhibiting the same behavior again and again but expecting a different outcome each time.

      Sound familiar?

      -Sean

  • I'm confused. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by afstanton ( 822402 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @11:51AM (#11276891) Homepage
    Why exactly would I buy DVDs that I can't play on my existing DVD player? Oh yeah, in a few years they simply won't make DVDs that do play on my existing player.

  • Current DVD players obsolete???? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by mark-t ( 151149 ) <markt.nerdflat@com> on Thursday January 06, 2005 @11:53AM (#11276913) Journal
    Okay... the only way I can see this happening is if all (or a significant number of) future releases of DVD movies don't play on the current DVD players.

    If that's not the case, then it's bullshit. Although I won't argue that a lot of media piracy is abound, by _FAR_ the biggest use for DVD players is to watch actually legally purchased or rented content, and if these changes won't interfere with that on old players then the whole "making DVD players obsolete" thing is just mindless hype.

  • Boycott (Score:3, Insightful)

    by nightsweat ( 604367 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @11:55AM (#11276952)
    Seriously. I know you short attention span types want to see all the latest and greatest shows and movies but the great thing about entertainment is that by definition it's not a necessity.

    Go read a book, go surf the net, go create something or take up cooking or amature botany or anything rather than give your attention and money to these schmucks who want to eliminate rights you've had for the past however many years.

    This isn't food or shelter or clothing. If the supplier abuses you - abandon him.

  • Well, I'm fine with it... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Xugumad ( 39311 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @11:55AM (#11276956)
    ...I'll go along with their shiny new DRM standard, if they'll replace my DVD player for free. By which I mean, pick it up from my door, and give me an equivalent player with the DRM, for absolutely no cost to myself.

    However, I bought a DVD player, and if it stops playing DVDs for no good reason, I'm not going to be enthusiastic about buying another...

    • Re:Well, I'm fine with it... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 06, 2005 @12:29PM (#11277458)
      I'll go along with their shiny new DRM standard, if they'll replace my DVD player for free

      sellout!

      What are your personal liberties worth? Are you so eager to return to feudalism? That's what the future currently holds. Private property (fair use, first sale) is slowly being replaced by perpetual leases to our "benevolent" corporate overlords. What happens when the hardware DRM infrastructure is in place and they decide to stop being so "benevolent"? DRM offers the consumer no benefits, while giving corporations abusive opportunities.

      Reject any short term incentives for accepting DRM in any incarnation, whether it be a free hardware player or otherwise. In the long term, you lose.

      Freedom isn't "free".

      Decide that open formats and technologies that respect your rights are worth more, even if they require more financial outlay.

  • arg!!! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by enrico_suave ( 179651 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @11:56AM (#11276968) Homepage
    "The VCTS scheme will also be built into next-generation media, which will slowly replace the non-DRM encoded DVD+R discs over time. The new discs will be somewhat more expensive than their DRM-free counterparts, explained Jun Ishihara, a product manager for Mitsubishi Chemical Media Co., also known as Verbatim. Likewise, the new players will probably be priced somewhat higher than conventional players, HP executives said, although pricing will be up to individual manufacturers."

    Why would consumers willingly pay MORE for LESS functionality, and kick their current gear to the curb to boot?!

    *shudder*

    e.

  • This has failed every tim it's been tried (Score:3, Interesting)

    by davecb ( 6526 ) <davecb@spamcop.net> on Thursday January 06, 2005 @11:59AM (#11277015) Homepage Journal
    I vividly remember Apple ][ and CP/M disk protection schemes built on breaking the disk format, "dongles" plugged into CP/M and DOS printer ports and all sorts of unsucessful software schemes.

    Each time they made money for the sellers of the scheme, but harmed the purchasers. And I don't mean the end-users, I mean the companies that shipped software that depended on unreliable and sometimes deliberately broken hardware.

    Customers couldn't use the products, and returned them for a refund. Which made the dealers relctant to stock them, and eventually the products were supplanted by their more functional competitors.

    --dave

  • Not new (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Deanasc ( 201050 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @12:03PM (#11277078) Homepage Journal
    My Panasonic -R recorder has already refused to record several movies because it detected a copyright flag.

    • Re:Not new (Score:3, Informative)

      by Jah-Wren Ryel ( 80510 )
      My Panasonic -R recorder has already refused to record several movies because it detected a copyright flag.

      This is a standalone unit and you were trying to record from an analog source right? Sounds like macrovision.
      You were probably trying to record another DVD or VHS tape by playing it into the panasonic.

      This new stupidity from HP is about digital recordings only.

      BTW, for about $60 you can buy a "video clarifier" from radio shack which will effectively strip macrovision from the analog video allowing

  • Fine. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Max_Abernethy ( 750192 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @12:04PM (#11277091) Homepage
    You break my DVD player, I'll just go ahead and steal some of your movies from DC++, asshole. Don't you people get it? I have a finite space in my budget to spend on your shit. I don't have any more money for you, and if you make me start spending it on new hardware for your ridiculous new standards, then I won't have any left to buy your IP with.

  • I don't have a DVD player... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by hal2814 ( 725639 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @12:06PM (#11277122)
    ...you insensitive clod.

    I'm still waiting for two features they never brought over from VHS:

    1. A format that will ALWAYS fast forward when I hit the fast forward button. (same with rewind)
    2. A format that will withstand the destructive force of a toddler. (Though I do applaud the DVD's resistance to heat from a car.)

    If this new-fangled DRM standard player would provide me with those things (and have a low cost), I'd look into buying one. I'm not holding my breath.

    • Re:I don't have a DVD player... (Score:5, Funny)

      by Kenshin ( 43036 ) <`ac.skrowranul' `ta' `nihsnek'> on Thursday January 06, 2005 @12:29PM (#11277459) Homepage
      I'm still waiting for two features they never brought over from VHS: ...
      2. A format that will withstand the destructive force of a toddler. (Though I do applaud the DVD's resistance to heat from a car.)

      Excuse me sir, but how long do you plan on keeping this toddler?
    • 1) DVD handles chapter forward and back (a VHS doesn't DO that...) and via the remote (and in some cases, on the front panel...) you can fast-forward/reverse in at least 4-5 different speeds and slow-forward at at least 2-3 different speeds. Now some discs have some obnoxious feature that prevent you from doing this sort of thing to the "previews" (ads?) on the disc- but they're actually in the very small minority of late because people bitched about that... Item 1 on your list has pretty much been a non-

  • When will DRM oriented companies learn? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by VirtualUK ( 121855 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @12:09PM (#11277172) Homepage
    There's enough people out there that don't mind the digital to analogue step down process. Take CDs for example, DRM only works when you can check against something that somewhat resembles the original digital format with watermarks, key points, etc. If someone has simply hooked up a 3.5mm jack plug from their audio out to the mic on their soundcard then they can easily rip music into mp3 format. The same is true with DVDs, there are still plenty of people that won't mind the minute subtle changes that come in to play from using the analogue step down process.

    To get around this, companies would have to then have to figure out how to pick up traits in the music/film as opposed to relying on actual markers. This too can be easily overcome though for example for the case of music, the pitch can be altered by less that 1% and for most people the difference would be virtually nill.

    What I resent is that film studios and distribution companies are making a fortune here, while something which was one of the basic given rights, to make a legit backup, is being taken away. I'm sure as hell not going to be spending another $70 on some box set when some rugrat happens to scratch one of the DVDs. If film companies were really threatened by piracy and weren't using this as some kind of "anti-double jeopardy" thing they'd have some way that you could prove that you'd bought the original and they'd send you a replacement if you damaged yours for a minimal fee. After all, the media costs literally pence to produce and it is the content that we are actually paying for.

  • What is in it for me? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Mr_Silver ( 213637 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @12:10PM (#11277185)
    People moved from video to DVD for one or more of the following reasons:
    1. Better picture quality
    2. Better sound quality
    3. Additional extra's
    4. No need to rewind the tape
    5. Ability to skip to certain sections of the film
    6. Smaller physical size of the DVD medium
    There are 6 keys things there that satisfy the "what is in it for me?" factor.

    Having a new format with better DRM fails this test completely. The only way it will ever get adopted is if people are forced to change - and there will be public uproar.

    In short, if they're going to want to introduce it, then they have to come up with some other features that really will make people want to "upgrade". If not, then it is pretty much dead in the water from the beginning.

    • You hit the nail on the head. I like dvd's for all of those reasons, pretty much in that order. They take up a whole lot less space than vhs tapes, especially when you take them out of their cases and put them into a cd/dvd binder.

      I'm thinking that if they offered this for cheaper than what we pay now, they would get some sales. For example, I don't like paying around $1 per blank dvd but that's about what I pay. I can get a stack of 50 for $40 and with tax it comes to maybe $.83 or so... but that's three

  • Compelling reason for users to upgrade? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by MachineShedFred ( 621896 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @12:19PM (#11277327) Journal
    Maybe it's getting lost on the manufacturers out there, but usually if you want someone to buy your new product that is supposed to supplant an older-yet-functional product, you have to have some kind of compelling reason.

    DVD worked where LaserDisc failed, because the electronics became cheaper, and the quality was much better than VHS, while not taking any more physical space than VHS.

    Better quality + same price point = commercial success

    However, if this new stuff requires consumer purchase without consumer gain, it will be relegated to the halls of failed products, in the display case between DIVX (the single use disc, not the codec) and SunnComm's CD copy protection which could be bypassed through the use of the shift key.

  • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @12:42PM (#11277649)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • A modest proposal... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by karlandtanya ( 601084 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @01:35PM (#11278356)
    Furthermore, analog video will not require the protection scheme, meaning that video stored on analog VCRs could be free of the copyright restrictions.

    The author suggests that IFF an activity (copying) is prohibited via technical or practical means, it follows that activity is restricted by copyright law.

    This is the view that the **AA has been promoting for some time now, through propoganda and the DMCA.

    That is--if it's technically difficult, it must be illegal. And, via the DMCA, that we, the **AA, will decide what's legal and what rights you have. You will be informed of our decision after you buy our product.

    Folks, it doesn't work that way. Fair use has not been repealed. Not by the unelected and un-apointed **AA, and not by the passage of the DMCA.

    The DMCA gives a group of unelected people the practical ability to make certain legal activities illegal. Our constitution doesn't allow that. The power to pass legislation comes from the whole of the people. The select group that we give this task was ostensibly elected by the whole of the people they represent. Not by a small group.

    A person (or corporate "person") who wishes to apply for this sort of protection should not be allowed to arbitrarily remove rights from other persons.

    I propose a test:

    "If you want your RM system to be protected under the DMCA, you must submit it for approval. (leaving the approval process and challenges to improperly approved systems to another discussion). If your system inhibits legally protected activities, your system may not be protected under the DMCA. You may implement the system, as long as it doesn't break existing laws. But if someone chooses to break your system in order to exercise their rights in an otherwise legal manner of their choosing, the law will not stop them. However, if your system ONLY inhibits those activities in a manner you are already legally entitled to control, then it may be protected."

    Seems to me a fair test--Everybody's existing rights are protected. No unelected person gets to make arbitrary decisions for the rest of us, then use the penalty of law to enforce those decisions.

    It removes the power to enact laws from the **AA and the puts it back into the hands of the legislature where it belongs.

    This assumes, of course, that legislators answer to the will of the majority of the citizens they represent--not to the citizens offering the biggest bribe.

  • No sir, I don't like it. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Orion Blastar ( 457579 ) <orionblastar.gmail@com> on Thursday January 06, 2005 @01:43PM (#11278471) Homepage Journal
    This new DVD format sounds like it takes away more freedoms than it gives. Who is fooling who? DRM means the rights of the media companies and not the consumer that buys the thing. The consumer is actually losing rights and freedoms here and being forced to buy a new DVD player.

    What this will do is force more people to get on the Internet to download cracked versions of DVD images on the file sharing networks and burning their own copies, because the new DVDs won't play in their $60 DVD player they bought a few years ago. Rather than spend $120 for a new DVD player, they spend $59 on 100 DVD-R disks in bulk and start up whatever P2P file sharing program they can and make DVD-R copies of movies from that.

    Way to go, the more you tighten your grip on the DRM movement, the more revenue that slips through your fingers.

    P.S. The Hackers/Crackers will find a way around this protection in less than a month, and turn protected DVDs into DVD ISO images using a DVD ripper. The ISOs can then be burned back to a DVD-R or DVD+R or DVD+RW disk after that, the DVD ISOs can be shared over file swapping networks.

  • Planned obsolescence? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by mhollis ( 727905 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @02:05PM (#11278854) Journal

    Frankly, were I a lawyer, as soon as these things started being sold to the channel, I'd try to put together a class-action lawsuit claiming harm to the class of people who previously purchased recording devices that were being legally used that now had to go out and purchase new units.

    Also, the fact that these new units would cost more due to the implimentation of this copy-protection scheme creates additional actionable harm.

    I would add, for the benefit of karlandtanya that the term fair use also refers to the permission to exhibit or broadcast copyrighted material due to a news event, like the death of a person connected with the material, a photograph of a person and so on. Fair use in the United States exists for a period of 48 hours and then it expires. In that event, one might be able to use one's home-digitized material on a blog as long as the link was removed in 48 hours, though this has certianly not been tested.

    What he is referring to is home copying, which is legal as a result of the Sony Betamax Case [museum.tv] that specifically allows home recording and copying and storing of material for personal use.

  • Remember Gutenburg (Score:4, Insightful)

    by TractorBarry ( 788340 ) on Thursday January 06, 2005 @03:13PM (#11279880) Homepage
    I feel like I'm going to have to keep saying this 'til the day I die...

    All these DRM/Copy protection schemes are an attempt to return us to the days before the Gutnburg printing press when an elite group (in those days the Church) were the only people who could read and write the Latin books and hence the only people that could interpret the Bible for you.

    Add to this the fact that with a closed proprietary format then in X years time you may not be able to view content you've paid for (the hardware is no longer manufactured, the format is proprietary and the skills/information needed to decode it have been lost/forgotten)

    What we have with all these schemes is utter barbarians trying to appropriate culture for their own use and profit.

    Monopolise the means of production the means of distribution (digital certificates, DRM) and kill any minor players (independent producers who are priced out of the process) These people want an Eastern Bloc style Communist entertainment industry ! "The party makes good stuff huh and you will buy".

    What cultural inheritance will our current generations leave for future historians ? Nothing at this rate (min you that could be a blessing for the ones to come ;)

    All together now.... vote with your wallets and just say no.

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