Heinlein Archives Put Online

RaymondRuptime writes "Good news for fans of the late SF master Robert Heinlein, 2 months after his 100th birthday celebration. Per the San Jose Mercury News, 'The entire contents of the Robert A. and Virginia Heinlein Archive — housed in the UC-Santa Cruz Library's Special Collections since 1968 — have been scanned in an effort to preserve the contents digitally while making the collection easily available to both academics and the general public... The first collection released includes 106,000 pages, consisting of Heinlein's complete manuscripts — including files of all his published works, notes, research, early drafts and edits of manuscripts.' You can skip the brief article and go straight to the archives."

For real?

[commlinx]

Or was permission to publish just a Grumble from the Grave?

Re:For real?

[arivanov]

He realised the "value" of such archives much more than other people.

Just read the Lazarus rant in "Time Enough for Love" when he understands for the first time that his pearls of wisdom are being recorded.

So I think he is more likely laughing than grumbling. After all he said (though Lazarus): "Beware of altruism. It is based on self-deception, the root of all evil."

Re:For real?

[networkBoy]

True.
He also put in his bequeathing to UCSC that there was one work not to be published... Ever. I haven't the time to search the archive to see if it's there, and at the moment the title escapes me, so I'll have to dig in my annual collection and look up the title (My most prized copy of ?compton's SF? some rag that was carrying RAH's first serials.)

Anyway, I hope they honor his wishes about this. He declared it his single worst story ever, never to be re-printed. He's fairly spot on in his assessment.
-nB

Re:

[Walt Dismal]

Re first serials, did you by any chance mean Colliers? I think he had early work in that magazine.

As for the worst story, Heinlein wrote one, under a pseudonym, for The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction that was about a talking alligator and oh boy was it a bomb. He was trying to be light and comedic but it was like tapdancing in lead shoes. It may well have been that story.

Re:For real?

[networkBoy]

Yes that would be it, but I fail to remember the title. My collection is sealed in an inert atmosphere*, so getting to it is dicey.
-nB

*Yes I'm a geek, but old ragstock is known for decay, thus a Lucite box, purged with argon.

Re:For real?

[Mursk]

I think you are referring to "the stinkeroos." From James Gifford's RAH FAQ:

The so-called "stinkeroos" (Heinlein's own term for them) are three short stories, all dating from the first phase of his writing career, prior to World War II. With one exception, they have never been reprinted since their original pulp appearances. Heinlein refused reprint requests and never included them in any of his own collections, and his literary executors continue this policy. It is unlikely that any of them will ever be reprinted.

The stinkeroos are:

"Beyond Doubt" (Astonishing Stories, Apr 1941)

"'My Object All Sublime'" (Future, Feb 1942)

"Pied Piper" (Astonishing, Mar 1942)

Re:For real?

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like they are in there:

"Beyond Doubt" (Astonishing Stories, Apr 1941)
http://www.heinleinarchives.net/upload/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=13 [heinleinarchives.net]

"'My Object All Sublime'" (Future, Feb 1942)
http://www.heinleinarchives.net/upload/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=8 [heinleinarchives.net]

"Pied Piper" (Astonishing, Mar 1942)
http://www.heinleinarchives.net/upload/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=9 [heinleinarchives.net]

Re:Who Robert Heinlein is...

[arodland]

Please turn in your /. account on the way out the door. Thank you.

Re:

[Daath]

Allow me to be the first to welcome you to slashdot, we hope you enjoy your stay! ;)

Re:For real? - Copyright

[davidgreystahl]

I too was very disappointed to arrive at the archives and notice that payment was required. Did not follow through with the process to see what "rights" I was purchasing.

A friend of mine, now deceased, Amy Mahin was the copyright lawyer for Lassie [wikipedia.org]. She was a wonderful person, thoughtful, and for the last ten years I've wondered often what her take on the copyright mess we are in would be. As many others have commented in the past - the current legal structure supports the distributors - with each individ

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

And don't get me started on the Dune sequels, where the notes of Frank Herbert, instead of just being shown as they were, were turned into dreck by his son and an airport paperback writer."

Does anyone have any proof that this "notes" actually exist? The prequels are so chock-full of contradictions with the original series and - to put it bluntly - flat-out stupidity that I've always suspected that the notes were either too scanty to form a full work; largely ignored by Herbert & Anderson in favour of

Re:

[shystershep]

Its hard to think of anybody who has done a good job at "carrying on" a series once the primary author has died.

I certainly don't disagree with you, but in all fairness there aren't all that many 'primary' authors that have done a good job carrying on a series. The obsession with never-ending series of books in scifi & fantasy almost guarantees that you will lose interest and/or be disappointed by the quality long before the series is finished. A standard trilogy may not be enough, but if there are m

Re:

[shystershep]

One exception just came to mind, although I'm sure I'll think of others as soon as I hit 'submit': Robin Hobb's Farseer books. Nine books, written as three trilogies (the first two of which, at least, could stand alone). Excellent books, with the ninth just as hard to put down as the first. She is currently in the middle of a new trilogy, I believe, completely unrelated to the previous series -- so there is at least one author that knows when to leave well enough alone.

Re:A practice that could save us from rereleases.

[ConceptJunkie]

There are exceptions to this, but frankly I can't think of any offhand.

I can: Terry Pratchett.

While the Discworld books have evolved significantly from essentially a ripoff of Douglas Adams to the best fantasy humor ever written to painstaking social commentary and satire, even a spinoff into children's stories that are largely as good as the "main" series, after something close to 30 books, I think he's still doing a great job. Of course, they're not coming out twice a year, each thicker (and better) than the last like they were in the 90's, but I think man is still on a roll.

Re:

[shystershep]

There you go - I knew there were other obvious examples I was missing.

Re:

[TheLink]

I agree, his first book was not bad, but in the subsequent books the Discworld universe and style really came to life - Cohen the Barbarian, Death getting more character, etc.

Much like the first drawings of Asterix and Obelix (or some other cartoonists). They were ok, but "not that different from the others", then it's like the artist/writer suddenly gets into gear ;).

And the stuff moves from blah/good to great.

Re:

[Dun Malg]

While the Discworld books have evolved significantly from essentially a ripoff of Douglas Adams...

O please. It's the same style of dry humor, but completely different subject matter. Adopting the style alone is hardly something that can be called "ripping off". It's also particularly hard to label something a ripoff when it's several orders of magnitude funnier and better written than the supposed ripped-off source. Douglas Adams was humorous, but his writing was disjointed and bizarre, like he never quite recovered from the coke parties of the 70's.

Re:

[mdm-adph]

And don't get me started on the Dune sequels, where the notes of Frank Herbert, instead of just being shown as they were, were turned into dreck by his son and an airport paperback writer.

THANK YOU. Thank god I wasn't the only one who noticed this -- the whole time I'm reading the few prequels that I actually did read, I'm thinking, "Man, it's like someone took a book that Frank Herbert had written and got some two-bit hack to copy it over, only he left out all the good bits."

I always thought it amazing how I was able to read God Emperor of Dune in five days, yet Battle of Corrin took four frickin' weeks. The book was utter shite, and I'm being as nice as I can be in saying that.

Re:

[Reziac]

Hear hear!! I'd read everything Frank Herbert wrote, including his non-SF. And then I came to the first Brian And Frank novel.... I could tell *to the word* where Frank left off and Brian began. Problem is, Brian Herbert is a DULL writer. Not so much bad as -- dull. It take serious effort to slog through his stuff. After several brave efforts, I gave it up.

Re:

[dargaud]

A little bit offtopic, but about the Dune prequels, I read the first one that came out and had to force myself to finish it. Never read the others. Awful stuff. Then I heard about the new sequel by the same two 'writers', supposedly based on good notes by Frank. Is that any better and worth reading ? I though the original Dune series ended with a nice if mysterious wrap-up. Some kind of liberation of the characters by their author into the world at large. Not sure if I want this spoiled...

TANSTAAFL

[Vinegar Joe]

As usual.

Re:

[grimflick]

Electronic commerce! Sigh, I am only an EGG

Re:TANSTAAFL

[Chapter80]

Hilarious!

I saw your acronym, and (once again, clueless me) I had to look it up in Wikipedia. [wikipedia.org] And it's a Heinlein reference!

TANSTAAFL is an acronym for the adage "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch," popularized by science fiction writer Robert A. Heinlein in his 1966 novel The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, which discusses the problems caused by not considering the eventual outcome of an unbalanced economy. This phrase and book are popular with libertarians and economics textbooks. In order to avoid a double negative, the acronym "TINSTAAFL" is sometimes used instead, meaning "There Is No Such Thing As A Free Lunch".

I take it they are charging for access?

Re:

[Chapter80]

Agreed.

But if the Estate (or descendants) "invested" in the scanning, and then released the manuscripts a little at a time, via torrents or free / cheap hosting services, it's possible that they would re-energize the market for his books.

I have never bought a Heinlein book, and don't intend to pay to download stuff. But if I were exposed to it via a free website, it might just pique my interest enough to buy a book (which has happened NUMEROUS times to me with technical books).

Then again, they might

It's a shame he renewed everything.

[Grendel Drago]

Heinlein (and his successors) were extraordinarily diligent about renewing every single thing he ever wrote. If they hadn't been, you could read some examples that had fallen through the cracks and into the public domain, such as the works of [gutenberg.org]: Poul Anderson, Marion Zimmer Bradley, John W. Campbell, Lester Del Rey, Harry Harrison, Damon Knight, Andre Norton, H. Beam Piper, Frederik Pohl, E. E. "Doc" Smith and Kurt Vonnegut.

Actually, it appears there may be one or two available shorts [pgdp.net], the ones that he really

Re:

[Chapter80]

Wow. OK, I'll try to open my mind a little. I've done without it for about 50 years. Can't imagine it's that great!

What you are suggesting involves three things I really don't care for: Reading novels (passive activity), fiction (stuff that didn't happen), and "Science" fiction (stuff that can't happen). It sounds horribly boring, un-challenging, and something that will cause my eyes to roll.

I'll report back. I'm sure I am in the minority on Slashdot, but I never really "got it". I'd rather read a

Re:TANSTAAFL

[AshtangiMan]

Science fiction as a genre does not at all mean "stuff that can't happen". More often it is a genre that allows examination of the human condition in a new context, so that we can see what absurd animals we are, both individually and especially collectively. SF has in my mind gotten a bad rap in the last 3 decades, and even early on the pulp stuff that claimed to be SF was not. These others fall into more of the Space Western category. While I am a fan of the TV "SciFi" genre, Battlestar Gallactica, Buck Rogers, Space 1999, these are not related to SF of the likes of Heinlein, LeGuin, and others. But I also agree about novels, and more or less about fiction in general. My favorite Heinlein novel is "Job" . . . very funny, and, as I was raised Catholic, very rebelious feeling.

Re:

[Mister Whirly]

SciFi to me usually means commentary on religious, political, or just plain social aspects. SciFi has always been a good way for authors to express dissent without having to address the actual subject literally, and avoid trouble with the authorities. Stories about "stuff that can't happen" I would consider in the Fantasy genre. And exercising your mind and imagination is hardly a "passive" activity. It is what will keep your brain from turning into mush as you grow older.

Re:

[Sancho]

You've confused "Fantasy" with "Science Fiction." Generally speaking, good science fiction could happen if the technologies emerge. Fantasy, generally speaking, couldn't.

Then again, there is that saying about technology and magic....

Re:TANSTAAFL

[jtroutman]

Here's a list of "Science fiction (stuff that can't happen)"

• Deep ocean submersibles
  
• Satellites
  
• Rockets
  
• Robots
  
• Portable computers
  
• Virtual reality
  
• Surveillance systems
  
• Genetic alteration and modification
  
• Holographic cloaking
  
• Video Communication
  

The fact is, most of the wonders of modern science were predicted in the writings of people like Asimov, Heinlein, Bradbury, Wells, and Clarke.

Re:

[Obyron]

I definitely agree with this assessment. Also, don't miss Stranger In A Strange Land. It's probably had more of an impact on me than any book I've ever read, aside from maybe Atlas Shrugged (and I'm not a Randroid! I pick and choose the bits I agree with ;)). However, "Stranger" definitely has more value in terms of impact per page.

Sadly I don't think I've ever bought a Heinlein book at actual price. I'm a big fan of used bookstores, and I've picked up all my Heinlein books at such places. Do used bookst

Re:

[montyzooooma]

I saw a post on rec.art.sf.composition a while back from David Langford talking about his efforts to get his work removed from Scribd.com - in one of the replies another author (James Nicoll? maybe...) said he had difficulty getting other works removed so he contacted the lawyers for Heinlein's estate and within 3 days they'd had every reference to him taken down. Then I saw this and thought, god that's odd that they're putting this all up online for free.... well doh.

This links to a *STORE*, people...

[pla]

You can skip the brief article and go straight to the archives.

...Where you can add any of Heinlin's works to your cart, for a low, low price. They take Visa, Mastercard, AmEx, and Discover.

Hey, if I link to the "complete" works of another great author on Amazon, can I make FP too? Or does it have to belong to some "special" collection selling out?

Re:

[ThirdPrize]

No one said anything about being free or public domain.

Re:

[pla]

No one said anything about being free or public domain.

When someone describes the works of a dead author going online in some archival form, "in an effort to preserve the contents digitally while making the collection easily available to both academics and the general public", the idea of "for free" implicitly tags along for the ride.

If you want to "preserve" an intangible and/or make it "easily available" to everyone, you don't charge for it. You give it away to anyone who will take it.



Furthermore

You bought it with your taxes.

[Grendel Drago]

UC Santa Cruz doesn't operate on flowers and sunshine; they have an endowment, tuition income, and state subsidies. While it's perfectly understandable that they want to subsidize their archival efforts by selling the results rather than giving them away for free, it's important to recognize that making them free to download would not be providing a free lunch--rather, the lunch has already been bought by the fine folks in California and anyone else who donated to the archives.

Re:

[pla]

At least in the US

Go West (or East) until you hit a large body of salty water. Keep going. Welcome to the rest of the world, not (yet) a wholly-owned and occupied subsidiary of Haliburton.



Perhaps next time you rant against "the aristocracy" you might do a bit of research first.

Good idea. And next time you tell someone the weather, look outside before vehemently insisting your bedroom remains rain-free.

Re:

[Dun Malg]

"more people today pass on massive debt than any sort of estate."

No. No they don't. At least in the US, your heirs are not liable for your debts. Perhaps next time you rant against "the aristocracy" you might do a bit of research first.

Don't be an ass. Everyone knows you can't pass on debt directly to descendants, but it's perfectly common to pass on a debt-related financial headache. Simplified example: Parent dies with $20,000 left owed on the mortgage of a house with $200,000 market value, $8,000 owed on a brand new 4-door Mercury Medicare worth $4,000--- and $200,000 in assorted credit card debt from gambling and booze. At first you think you're inheriting a windfall on the house, but after spending hours adding it all up, you find P

Re:This links to a *STORE*, people...

[derrickh]

Why does it have to be free? If you want to read Stanger in a Strange Land for free, whats stopping you from going to the library? If the $21 price tag on the Starship Troopers opus is too much, then head over to Amazon and get the novel for $5.
This whole 'everything should be free' movement is weird.

D

Re:This links to a *STORE*, people...

[badfish99]

The whole paying money to a dead author thing is even weirder.

Re:

[hercubus]

The whole paying money to a dead author thing is even weirder.

dead authors may have live heirs who need the money

it would be nice to think that one's work could benefit one's children for some time

OTOH, current corporate perversions attempting to lock revenue streams in perpetuity are abominations

OTTH, Admiral Heinlein, I salute you sir!

Re:This links to a *STORE*, people...

[pedestrian crossing]

dead authors may have live heirs who need the money

Such weak BS.

If an artist wants to take care of their heirs, they need to do like the rest of us and take care of their heirs with the money they earn while they are still alive.

Untimely accident? TFB, death sucks for all of us.

I just don't see what gives artists the right to continue to profit from their works after they die. No one else has that "right".

Re:

[hercubus]

Such weak BS. If an artist wants to take care of their heirs, they need to do like the rest of us and take care of their heirs with the money they earn while they are still alive. Untimely accident? TFB, death sucks for all of us. I just don't see what gives artists the right to continue to profit from their works after they die. No one else has that "right".

you can't see it because you're myopic. consult an optometrist

also, consider the life gamble someone like Heinlein makes. part of why he conc

Re:

[Convergence]

Given that he was born 100 years ago, and has been dead for 20, his kids would be about 70 and grandkids 40. Everyone has heirs who need money. Why, I'll have you know that my grandfather put the plumbing in the demolished building across the street, and I could certainly use money.

Re:

[j-pimp]

The whole paying money to a dead author thing is even weirder.

dead authors may have live heirs who need the money

it would be nice to think that one's work could benefit one's children for some time

OTOH, current corporate perversions attempting to lock revenue streams in perpetuity are abominations

OTTH, Admiral Heinlein, I salute you sir!

Ok here's an idea. How about we limit copyright to a period of lets say 20 years, and if authors want to take care of there kids they have to invest a portion of their income during that 20 years. I work for the man, and thats how I plan on taking care of my kids. Of course I specifically don't want to help them too much after college. I believe in making them go out on there own, and charging rent that is cheaper than market value but not insignificant if they wish to remain living with me.

Re:

[vrmlguy]

OTTH, Admiral Heinlein, I salute you sir!

I suspect you meant to say, "OTGH [wikipedia.org]". This, BTW, is an especially appropriate reference since LN made him an Admiral in "The Return of William Proxmire".

Re:This links to a *STORE*, people...

[badfish99]

dead authors may have live heirs who need the money
My grandfather is dead, but I am his heir. He did some good work 70 years ago but I am quite poor. Everyone must send me $10.

it would be nice to think that one's work could benefit one's children for some time
I would like that too. But my employer has told me that my pay will be stopped when I die. Evidently I am in the wrong industry.

Re:

[hercubus]

my employer has told me that my pay will be stopped when I die. Evidently I am in the wrong industry

okay, so what industry are you in? should your heirs be paid for your enduring work at the Walmart checkout? at the Ford assembly plant? well, probably not. at Microsoft? hmm, maybe not. in your studio creating a new genre of painting / literature / music? yep, that's how we've been doing it for a while

what if you author an enduring work that continues to benefit society and parenthetically conti

Re:

[db32]

Oh come off it. Look, I think its a little jacked up that so many things get tied up like this, however, if the original author wants it to be handled differently that is what a will is for. So when a parent dies who owns a business all the people off the street should be able to walk in and take whatever they want instead of the ownership of that business transfering? Please...this extremist view is just getting tired and only encourages the people with the power to fix things to not listen to such luna

Re:

[bit01]

Why does it have to be free?

By putting a price of even a buck on it you cut out the majority of the world's population.

If you want to read Stanger in a Strange Land for free, whats stopping you from going to the library? If the $21 price tag on the Starship Troopers opus is too much, then head over to Amazon and get the novel for $5.

You're being parochial. The US is less than 5% of the world's population. The european population is more than double that but the entire western world is still less t

Re:

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:

[Mikkeles]

'For most of the history of the human race, artists made a living by patronage, and no one had any moral objections to people copying their works.'

So how many artists have you patronised and arranged for their works to be given away?

Re:

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:

[speaker of the truth]

Indeed. The perpetual copyright has inspired Heinlein to keep publishing these past 10 years, oh wait, no it hasn't. Its truly sad to see Congress beholden to major corporations to such a degree that they'll enact unconstitutional laws.

No Free Lunch

[norm1153]

Yeah, how depressing. Somehow from the news releases I also thought it'd be a freebie. After all, it's a publicly funded institution...

Grumble, mumble mumble.

Shoulda known.

The Trust isn't publicly funded.

[wiredog]

It's privately funded, mostly through sales of Heinlein's works.

TANSTAAFL

[Sixty4Bit]

From the site [heinleinprize.com]:

Fees for receiving documents average $.01 per page across the collection. Academics interested in writing on Robert A. Heinlein's work for publication may apply for a research grant and, if approved, can receive the documents they require at no charge.

About the Heinlein Prize Trust

The Heinlein Prize Trust (www.heinleinprize.com) also awards the Heinlein Prize, a $500.000 prize rewarding individuals for making practical contributions to the commercialization of space. The first Heinlein

Copyright concerns

[Rhinobird]

To avoid another Scribd-like fiasco, do they have permission from Heilien's estate to do this?

Increase the income...

[Rick Richardson]

Though the Archives is provided online for research and academic purposes, The Heinlein Prize Trust, Robert and Virginia Heinlein's estate, who made the online Archives possible is not a non-profit organization. Just as Heinlein always said he wrote for money (something you'll find is true if you read through his correspondence), the Trustees have a responsibility to not only maintain, but increase the income of the Heinleins' estate. This benefits us all as the mission of the Heinlein Prize Trust is to not only preserve Heinlein's legacy through projects such as this online Archives, but to support and encourage the human (that's us) expansion into space through commercial endeavors. The first Heinlein Prize of $500,000 was awarded to Peter Diamandis for just such commercial space endeavors.
 

Re:

[bit01]

... This benefits us all...

No, this benefits only those who accidentally happen to have objectives similar to those of the trust.

---

Like software, intellectual property law is a product of the mind, and can be anything we want it to be. Let's get it right.

Re:

[Red Flayer]

No, this benefits only those who accidentally happen to have objectives similar to those of the trust.

No, this benefits those who purposely have objectives similar to those of the trust as well.

Just for the sake of completeness... :)

I'm a fanboy but...

[The Mutant]

I fear this is for the hard core only.

I was hoping to get downloadable versions of all his books that I read as a kid, especially some of the more obscure titles, and as I read them.

Don't get me wrong - this is very cool, but we're not talking the finished product here, but all drafts leading up to the galley that was submitted to the publisher.

So this would be very good to see how the plot, characters & books were developed. But you're not gonna curl up with one of these. I suspect they'll be dense reads.

And expensive! The complete, seven parts of Starship Troopers [heinleinarchives.net] will set you back $21!!

Re:

[Catbeller]

Well, you could hit the torrent or eMule downloads, as the books have been scanned years back for your pleasure. Then you could curl up with your Touch iPod or iPhone and read the -- D'OH! They won't let us have an eBook reader app other than Web 2.0.

Almost there, almost there.

hrmph.

[apodyopsis]

I like Heinlein.

I have all his books, even the one finished by Spider Robinson.

But when I can buy an copy off the 'net for less then a scanned, no doubt DRM'd, electronic copy - I have to wonder who the target of this website is.

Bottom line - If you want to impress people donate the collected works to the Gutenberg archive.

But of course that is not a money spinner. Hardcore fans only indeed - though I am not knocking this as a source for historical research for the academics.

Re:

[praxis]

While I am not completely aware of what's available in published form, I did take a look at what you get for your $38.00 to download the Stranger in a Strange Land files. I was impressed. You get scans of the original manuscript, drafts, edits, letters he wrote and recieved about that work, and other interested tidbits. Hence, the archive seems pretty well poised for the academic and research crowd, where getting a behind-the-scenes look is actually now afordable. No more flying down, staying in a hotel

Re:

[Aladrin]

Your last line answered it: Hardcore fans and academics.

While I love to read, I have very little interest in HOW a book is written. I mean, I kind of care, but not enough to sift through tons of notes and try to recreate his thought process on a book that took him months or years to write. I simply don't have enough time to care.

On the other hand, if I were looking at writing my first book, I'd be sorely tempted to take a look at the process a master used, and see what could help me along.

And if I lived

Playboy.com makes mens magazine available online!

[HaloZero]

In other news, Playboy Magazine recently launched Playboy.com, which allows the worlds premier men's magazine to be made available online! You can skip the brief article, and go straight to the archives [NSFW] [playboy.com].

smokin something

[night_flyer]

Job: A comedy of Justice, new on Amazon... $7.99
Job: A comedy of Justice, used on Amazon... $0.01
Job: A comedy of Justice, digitized... $33.00?!?

Re:

[VAXcat]

...plus, Job: A Comedy of Justice, is really really bad! One of his worst works, and I say this as a lifelong devoted RAH fan. This (along with "I Will Fear No Weevils") is one of the RAH books I have only read once...and just barely made it through.

Re:smokin something

[Walt Dismal]

I think the title originally was "I Will Fear No Editor" (okay, I joke) but it read like that, too. Not one of his greatest works. However his artery blockage problem was kicking in around then.

I'll stick my two cents in here. Heinlein's juveniles and many other works (up until the period when the transition in quality coming from his cerebral artery problem deeply hurt his work) all celebrated the human condition, and the ability of man to rise to noble heights. They also were cracking good stories, too. Heinlein does not deserve the denigration coming these days from academic hacks and people unable to understand what he was really getting at. He wrote of man's responsibility to society, over and over again, and I find it offensive when some dimwitted, unimaginative 'publish or perish' academic arrogantly demeans him.

In his time - a span of decades overlapping WWII - Heinlein was a giant and an inspiration to many engineers and scientists; any current critic dismissing him as a totalitarian Nazi is getting it completely wrong. His goal was to make money entertaining, true, but he aimed to inspire, he aimed at noble mores. He was not a literary cheat or a fraud and tried to give good value for the money. He was human and he made some mistakes in later years. But overall he saluted the best in man, championed the competent man in his stories. He was in favor of can-do, and held whiny slackers in disdain. If someone finds fault in that, the problem is with them, not him. His Starship Troopers was about genuine duty to man, unlike many of today's shallow military porn 'Sci-Fi" novels. (The movie adaptation was not his fault.) His Door Into Summer inspired me as a budding engineer. Today's lightweight bookstore rack-space fillers, by contrast, are shallow and disposable. I don't see many of them lighting the right sparks in growing minds like Heinlein did.

Re:

[shilly]

Don't be silly. This isn't a bookshop, it's an archival store. You're buying not just the finished version of the book, but the associated working papers. The smaller potentail audience and high production costs account for the relative pricing.

Vector: Santa Cruz

[drseuk]

The last entry in the archive seems to indicate that he was preparing a new book: "Once upon a time a very large meteorite was heading directly for SCO. It was like a million miles across and filling the sky. Even then Darl didn't notice as he was too bust trying to kick the company server back to life ..." It ends there but there's a footnote: "This will undoubtably destory my Santa Cruz Library archive too but it's a price worth paying". It's amazing how he could predict the future with such accuracy.

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[account_deleted]

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Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein...

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, are you kidding me?

Heinlein is one of the biggest, most influential names in science fiction. He won 4 Hugos, the very first Grand Master Award from the SFWA, and I'm sure a lot more awards that I don't know about. Fuck, at one time he was referred to as one of the "Big Three" names in sci fi (along with Asimov and Clarke).

Read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Friday, Stranger in a Strange Land, and Citizen of the Galaxy. If you can't appreciate the genius that this man had after that, you're beyond hope.

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[account_deleted]

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[LukeWebber]

Heinlein was not exactly a literary genius, but he wrote a good yarn, and that's more than some geniuses could manage. More of a Rudyard Kipling than a James Joyce. But I know which I'd rather read.

It's a tragic shame that Heinlein lived long enough to write his later rubbish, which he apparently typed one-handed, with his trousers off. But his early stuff made good light reading. Fun and full of ideas.

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[Rob the Bold]

More of a Rudyard Kipling than a James Joyce. But I know which I'd rather read.

Yes, yes, YES!

Re:Umm??? I thought Heinlein...

[wytcld]

Heinlein was not exactly a literary genius ... more of a Rudyard Kipling

I love Joyce, but Kipling was the better writer, and thoroughly recognized in his time for it. Among Kipling's closest friends were Henry and William James. What Henry James did for expat Americans, Kipling did for expat Brits. Oh, you'll find far more English professors today who hold out Henry as the great genius, and Rudyard as pedestrian - but that's a temporary fashion, having nothing to do with their writing abilities, mostly a reflection of the fact that an American going to London to seek her or his fortune is currently respectable, while an English person's presence in India for the same purpose is not, just at present, seen as politically correct.

Heinlein knew he was writing in the style of Kipling - and Twain - the two best writers in the English language since Shakespeare and Milton. Heinlein knew their work intimately. Since Heinlein was describing outward-looking people and societies, people of the frontiers such as Kipling and Twain had written of, they were perfect models for him. Joyce, by contrast, is an example of European culture turned inward, during a period of great failures and retreat. And that's the problem with most of what passes for "literature" today - it deals in neurosis and failure rather than hope and success. Our scope should be wide enough to encompass both. And of the latter, Heinlein was the greatest author of the 20th Century. His sentences are deliciously-well crafted, too. His care in the details was as fine as Joyce's. It's just a different style. But he was perfect at it, especially in his first couple of decades.

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[raddan]

For the ultimate in neurosis and failure try Dostoyevski and Kafka. Holy shit. After that, I'll read anything. Supermarket porn. Crichton. Just make me happy again.

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[Rob the Bold]

It did seem that he really had something interesting going at the beginning of The Number of the Beast,

I started reading Heinlein with the first paperback printing of Number of the Beast, about a year or 2 after the hardback was released. I chose poorly. I wasn't quite ready for the non-linearity and multiple narrative stuff. I'm glad I gave him another chance, going back to the much more accessible early juvenile works until my reading ability matured a little. And I think it was good when he pushed

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[dunkelfalke]

i have read a lot of sf in my 27 years of life.
it ranged from aleksei tolstoy to stephen baxter.

still, heinlein is one of the authors whose books i have absolutely hated, alongside with e.e. smith and edgar burroughs.

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[pragma_x]

The funny thing is that the subtext of the story practically pokes said counterculture in the eye with a pointy stick.

Don't get me wrong, I love that book and agree that it was influential. But having read it for the first time about a year ago, I was left with the notion that the whole work was as much about Heinlein's social commentary of the time, as it was about men from Mars that hail from an alien utopia. That commentary seems to extend both to both parts of the establishment/government, and hippie

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[pragma_x]

Er... "loses" much. Way to blow the punchline there Pragma.

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[syrion]

The U.S. has (and has had) plenty of great writers. Pickings were a bit slim in the 19th Century, but the 20th made up for it: Faulkner, Hemingway, Steinbeck, Ralph Ellison, John Updike, Philip Roth, Cormac McCarthy, Thomas Pynchon, Theodore Dreiser, Sinclair Lewis, John Dos Passos, Richard Wright, Robert Penn Warren, Flannery O'Connor, Nabokov... I have never understood the fascination with Heinlein. I think he must have been "childhood reading" for a lot of people, and so gets a free pass. He's not a g

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[technothrasher]

The U.S. has (and has had) plenty of great writers. ... Nabokov

Can you really call Nabokov an American writer? He only spent 20 of his 78 years in the US.

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[syrion]

Well, he's usually counted "American" because he emigrated, and his greatest fame is in his English writing. He's an odd case, but I think (given his writing style and residence) you can call him an American writer. That's how he's usually taught, too.

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[Beyond_GoodandEvil]

Ug. Hemingway? You'll piss all over Heinlein but give the "dust on the dust on the dusty road", Hemingway a kudos. I have never understood the fascination with Hemingway. I think it was b/c it was "childhood reading" for a lot of people or maybe stories about bullfighting just seem cool.

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[syrion]

Actually, I personally dislike Hemingway, but he's generally recognized as a great writer. It's not so much his plots that make him so popular--his style was simply developmentally necessary to the later course of American fiction. Essentially, Faulkner and Hemingway were the creators of two latter-day American aesthetics: Faulkner's convolutions, heavy on description and atmosphere, versus Hemingway's spare and economical style. You can see the tension between the two in one of our present great writer

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[syrion]

What? Your comment makes no sense. He drew influence from Faulkner; his first novels are set in the South and are clearly in the Faulknerian style. With Blood Meridian, he began to develop his own style to a greater degree and moved away from Faulkner's influence. I don't know that he's directly influenced by Hemingway, but he has moved to a spartan style of writing reminiscent of the writers who have been influenced by Hemingway. Look: just because something isn't science or isn't about computers doe

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[thePowerOfGrayskull]

Perhaps the reason this is a common attitude is that these observations are of no particular significance to pretty much anything at all in the real world. Personally, I love reading books of many genres. I don't really pay attention to whether it comes from a 'great' writer or not, and I don't wrack my brain trying to read things into other people's work. Maybe that means I'm not doing it 'properly'. However, with rare exception, I suspect I'm reading it the way the author would have wanted: for enjoyme

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[Drasil]

Umm??? I thought Heinlein... was just another second-rate American pulp writer with a fascist bent.

You were wrong. Right-wing yes, but the Libertarian (good) kind if I read his books correctly. He did have some peculiar ideas, but you only become a fascist when you try and force your ideas on others IMO. Personally I love his work, at his best he was on a par with the likes of H. G. Wells and Aldous Huxley.

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[kalidasa]

Heinlein was a Douglasite.

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[Drasil]

K2Fe++Cl42(H2O) [webmineral.com]?

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[Rob the Bold]

Heinlein was one of a handful of writers that created the genre of Adult Science Fiction. You can see the transition in his own works, like from the Juvenile literature of Starship Troopers to the Adult Stranger in a Strange Land. If it weren't for Heinlein, Asimov, Bradbury, et al, Sci Fi might still be "pulp" fiction and "boys books". BTW, I'm using "juvenile" in the library sense, not pejorative.

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[chthon]

Why does everybody always think that Heinlein was a fascist ?

I think **whoosh** applies here.

Heinlein was very good at playing devil's advocate, and while some of his stories seem very authoritarian, they always question something basic.

Having read most of his early stories up until his last, you can definitely see a shift in his backgrounds and ideas moving from so-called right to so-called left. But the main thing is that I always have the impression that what he writes, he continually questions (excep

Yeah, but...

[RetiredMidn]

...I'd like to think that he would have disclaimed the movie.

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[jjohnson]

I think the fact that some of the points made are not as scandalous today as they may have been a few decades from now may have something to do with it.

That's a big part of it: in the 50s and 60s they were pretty radical ideas.

But there's no getting around the fact that, for all his intelligence, he was a pedantic windbag, a quality that got worse with his success and the inability of editors to rein in his prose. I didn't even get a quarter of the way into The Lives Of Lazerus Long.

That would be "Farnham's Freehold".

[Grendel Drago]

One about the backyard nuclear shelter that gets nuked into the future, what was it called? Maybe some others, I don't recall. Here, I'll state just two of my criticisms.

If the future was one where scary castrating black men (led by one named "Ponse") were in charge, then that's "Farnham's Freehold".

Also, stock character (3)--who you forgot to mention is almost invariably a redhead--is Heinlein's wife Virginia. Apparently she actually was a sexy redheaded super-genius.

It definitely takes a special kind of

"Apartness".

[Grendel Drago]

I forgot to mention that the scenario from "Farnham's Freehold" is done much, much better in Vernor Vinge's short story "Apartness". For one thing, it doesn't have the incredible reek of racism that the Heinlein story had. (Honestly--the negroes get too uppity and start castrating the white folks. You can't make this shit up.)