PRS Demands License Fee To Play Music To Horses 305
An anonymous reader writes "A woman in Bushton, Wilts, has been told by the Performing Rights Society (PRS for Music) that she needs to pay an annual fee in order to play classical music from the radio to the horses in her stable, something that she has been doing for the past 20 years.
The PRS claims that it's not about the horses — rather, it's about her staff of over two people, which puts Mrs. Greenway in the same category as shops, bars and cafes.
'The staff are not bothered whether they have the radio on or not, in fact they don't particularly like my music and turn if off when I'm not around,' said Mrs. Greenway, 62. 'Especially on windy days I try to play it — it gives [the horses] a nice quiet atmosphere, you can only exercise one horse at a time so it helps the others to stay calm. We are right next to the RAF Lyneham air base so it dulls the noise from the aircraft as well.'"
lolwut (Score:5, Insightful)
brb, I'm setting my radio now to max volume and pointing it at the street. Now if everyone would just do the same...
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Playing a radio in these circumstances is a public performance under British law and she does need a license.
However, given that it is being played for the benefit of the horses, I do wonder whether we will need to pay more for licenses to play music if our pets listen.
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Playing a radio in these circumstances is a public performance under British law and she does need a license.
She could just tell them that her staff are all deaf, and thus cannot hear the music. However, she would happily pay the public performance license if they can supply a sign-language version of their music.
This assumes that the public performance license does not apply if the audience cannot hear it. But I'm not entirely sure this assumption is correct, alas.
Re:lolwut (Score:5, Funny)
A sign language version would be an obvious "format shifting" violation, and then she'd have to pay even more money to the man, or risk some nonsensical IP law being applicable.
Re:lolwut (Score:4, Interesting)
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That's the way it is going in Australia although I haven't heard anything about enforcement. There are already a few places that take care to use copyright free music for on hold music etc - but I don't know if copyright free music exists in Australia anymore since the expiration date of copyright has recently changed to the truly bizare US standard.
I was involved with a volunteer radio station when a group first
Re:Bring it on... (Score:4, Insightful)
Sure, they could send an army of lawyers and bailiffs after her, but all she has to do in court is say she's unable to pay, and that will pretty much be that.
Considering it's "her stable" she may have difficulty showing that she doesn't have the assets to pay the fine or for the license that she will still need. If the ordinary small business can't cover its liabilities then it goes bankrupt and the creditors take its assets (it has to be a really big business before the government steps in and gives the failed business its creditors assets).
As others have pointed out, it's nothing to do with playing the music to the horses and everything to do with other members of staff being able to hear it. That needs a licence in England and Wales (don't know about Scotland). So scrub the stuff about horses; all this story is is "You need a licence to play a radio in an English workplace", which we don't like (although at least we no longer need a licence to operate a radio receiver anywhere) but isn't news.
Re:lolwut (Score:5, Interesting)
In some countries it doesn't matter what the source of the music is. CDs or Radio played at the workplace/shop/gym is counted as public performing and these lovely people want royalties from that, nevermind how miniscule the audience.
It's kinda like the debacle in Finland a few years ago when the local music IP organization demanded that taxis start paying a radio play fee since radio during a fare "gives added value to the service". AFAIK ever since most taxi drivers in Finland just stopped playing the radio... Double dipping, or more like triple dipping. There really is not shame to these people.
What won't the PRS do? (Score:4, Informative)
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In the case of classical music; the piece itself may no longer be subject to copyright, but the interpretation and any performances of it are. This is why many old classical pieces are not as freely available as you might think.
Of course, the original copy is not subject to copyright, but musical notation has changed a lot in the last 200 years.
omfgponies! (Score:2, Funny)
so who ratted her out?
the PONYS?!??!?!
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An American harpist reported that her music helped calm sick digs at a Florida vet's clinic and one online retailer sells specially selected CDs for cats.
Excerpt from "Snatch" for reference:
- Is the big fella not coming with us?
- He's minding the car.
- What does he think we are, thieves?
- No, nothing like that.
- He just likes looking after cars.
- Good dags. Do you like dags?
- Dags? - What?
- Yeah, dags. - Dags. You like dags?
Oh, dogs. Sure, I like dags.
- I like caravans more.
- You're very welcome.
Pikeys are well-known for their skills of negotiation in business. It's probably why they talk like that... ... so you can't follow what's being said.
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I'm not sure what's going on but recently the PRS seems to have awoken.
They've been on a massive collecting spree lately, going after everyone from builders playing a portable radio as they build an extension on a house through to staff of big businesses playing the radio in the office to this sort of thing.
I can only guess they've see how much cash the RIAA has racked in with it's threats of litigation against file sharers and is simply going for the same tactic en-masse (although it's always done this, ju
So stop... (Score:5, Insightful)
She should simply stop. Get a buttload of dirt cheap CDs in the bargain basement bin for $0.99 each, or better yet, get a lot more stuff off a site such as Magnatune [magnatune.com] or an Internet radio station, and let the PRS rot in hell in total irrelevance. I think they've completely lost the concept that they need this woman, in actually having an avid listener, a hell of a lot more than she needs them.
Re:So stop... (Score:5, Informative)
She should simply stop. Get a buttload of dirt cheap CDs in the bargain basement bin for $0.99 each, or better yet, get a lot more stuff off a site such as Magnatune or an Internet radio station, and let the PRS rot in hell in total irrelevance.
The issue is not radio versus personally owned copy. The PRS appears to be claiming that this is a public performance (see that PRS stands for Performing Rights Society). In which case it doesn't matter how the music is acquired, only that the way she is playing it in a way that she is not licensed for.
Re:So stop... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:So stop... (Score:5, Interesting)
The only problem then is the hassle of convincing the PRS that such a thing as "Royalty Free Music" exists [fsb.org.uk].
From time to time when they telephone here I consider screwing with them... trying the royalty free line... but I always end up thinking better of it and just tell them (the truth!) that we don't play any music here.
Re:So stop... (Score:5, Interesting)
They seem to be targeting all farms lately. Playing music to the cows when milking, playing music in the tractor, etc.,
Don't open any of the letters.
Get your phone on the TPS (telephone preference service) http://www.tpsonline.org.uk/tps/
There is also ctps (corporate telephone preference service)
If they phone report them! They can get fined up to £5,000 for each call. The more people who do this the better, as it will hit them in the pocket.
They have a legal right to collect monies for their clients. Not to harrass you, or come onto your land without your permission.
If they come onto your land they are Tresspassing!
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Tune her radio to the BBC. They paid the fee already, and as a tax payer, she is part owner of the BBC like every other citizen. Let the PRS sort it out with the BBC.
It can not be that you have to pay a fee to transit the material by radio, and also a fee to convert the radio to sound waves without it ALSO requiring a fee to convert the sound waves to ear-pressure changes.
Does the PRS require listeners to be licensed?
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Tune her radio to the BBC. They paid the fee already, and as a tax payer, she is part owner of the BBC like every other citizen. Let the PRS sort it out with the BBC.
The BBC pays its fee, I'm sure. But playing a BBC station where the public can hear it still counds as a public performance, so a further license is still needed.
It can not be that you have to pay a fee to transit the material by radio, and also a fee to convert the radio to sound waves without it ALSO requiring a fee to convert the sound waves to ear-pressure changes.
It could be the case, but you'll be glad to hear that it isn't. Only the first and third fees you describe are payable. There is no longer a license fee for possessing a radio receiver.
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The PRS doesn't control all recordings, regardless of the expansion of their acronym.
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The issue is not radio versus personally owned copy. The PRS appears to be claiming that this is a public performance (see that PRS stands for Performing Rights Society). In which case it doesn't matter how the music is acquired, only that the way she is playing it in a way that she is not licensed for.
Buy a sound system that plays MP3 and get creative commons licensed works. Does the PRS have authority over CC works in Britain too? If not the only other issue may be that she'll have trouble finding classic
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It might not be enough. As others have pointed out, CDs may be taxed as well, as happens in some countries (the keywords being "public performance", regardless of the source of music).
Even trying to play music licensed under Creative Commons or some such license may prove troublesome, as the PRS collects fees for all artists, even those that have opted out of it.
Maybe if you could prove the music was CCed and from a foreign origin...? Quite troublesome as well. The point being, where does the madness stop?
Re:So stop... (Score:5, Insightful)
My solution would be (since the other reply is right -- your personal CDs are the same as a radio for lic. purposes) to find a radio station that played ONLY royalty-free music, and make sure everyone knew WHY I chose that.
Tho the only one I can think of offhand plays decidedly unrestful music :)
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My solution would be (since the other reply is right -- your personal CDs are the same as a radio for lic. purposes) to find a radio station that played ONLY royalty-free music, and make sure everyone knew WHY I chose that.
Tho the only one I can think of offhand plays decidedly unrestful music :)
This is the UK, the lady in question is in her 60's and running a horse stable.
I don't think she'll be rigging up a laptop to play an internet radio station any time soon.
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The thing is that music you buy in stores is, legally, licensed (just like software). While there may be no EULAs, you still are only legally allowed to use the music for personal use. The line of legal uses is blurry (playing the music to your family is clearly legal; playing it in a for-profit business like a disco or selling copies of that CD to others is clearly illegal - if you want to do that, you have to negotiate a special license with the record studio). In other cases it's a gray area, and the cas
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that won't work...at least not directly as playing back CDs will also constitute a "performance," unless the copyright on the CDs that are played have expired.
The only other exception to it I can see is if the music is if the artists involved waive it for her; in other words, take a song that has no copyright and in the public domain, and perform it yourself (or with an artist who doesn't mind not getting a license fee).
I guess a local college orchestra who's willing to recite a song for free or whatever an
Solution (Score:2)
Seems asinine. Too bad this applies to both the UK and US.
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Would be interesting to see what happens at our stables - smallish livery yard of 19 boxes usually with one or two of the clients having radios on while we muck out etc... no paid staff on site just the other liveries..
Most stables usually have a radio playing for the staff; its just normally what the staff want and not necessarily the horses...
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Seems asinine.
I'd say equine.
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Seems asinine.
More likely equine, I think.
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Re:Solution (Score:4, Funny)
It might not be that big, but compared to the falling CD market, it's stable
Re:Solution (Score:4, Funny)
How big could the stable music market possibly be?
You'd be surprised. It's the next biggest market after house music and garage music.
The horses are upset by this (Score:5, Funny)
Re:The horses are upset by this (Score:4, Funny)
The one on the left has complained so much about this that it is a little horse.
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So horrible, yet I'm laughing. I don't know who to be more embarrassed for.
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so, they'll have to help pony up the fees.
Easy solution! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Easy solution! - one big problem (Score:5, Funny)
They'll all be depressed when they think Paul is dead!
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Not if you play them his last four albums.
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Not if you play them his last four albums.
Right - then they will be sure.
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Relieved by a sense of karmic justice, I thought.
Re:Easy solution! (Score:5, Funny)
The real solution (Score:5, Funny)
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That is a damn good idea.
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They need to pay. (Score:5, Funny)
I, for one, think the horses should pony up and pay. Musicians need the cash.
Re:They need to pay. (Score:5, Funny)
Sorry, I didn't want to stirrup any trouble.
While I agree Musicians need a stable income, should animals be saddled with such debt? What should our mane priority be as a society? Answering that question, is our first hurdle.
Easy solution. (Score:5, Funny)
Easier solution. (Score:2, Insightful)
One guess who ratted on her... (Score:2)
The staff are not bothered whether they have the radio on or not, in fact they don't particularly like my music and turn if off when I'm not around.
The staff isn't bothered by the music, but they don't like it and turn it off when she's not around?
Still, stupid as can be. Enjoy your nanny state. Ours is coming soon enough.
How about... (Score:2)
...mandatory earplugs (or iPods) for the people working there? First, with an airforce base next to it, it should be easy to get this past regulators. Second, the people there ain't too thrilled about the music anyway, so they won't complain that they can't hear it anymore. And she's not paying for the horses but her workers, so the leeches can't milk her anymore.
OK (Score:5, Funny)
Lets just all agree to pretend that Britain doesn't exist.
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Where did everybody go?
play public domain music (Score:5, Informative)
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Knowing the way most "performance rights agencies" act (and the way that the laws are written), playing any music at all (regardless of whether its public domain or you have permission from the copyright holder or whatever) without paying the mandatory "performance rights agencies" license will get you hit with a notice.
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I wonder what they'd make of musical wind sculptures in the garden of your workplace ?
Re:...at all (Score:2)
{X-Men}
"If you give the performance rights angencies any momentum at all, their notices cannot be stopped."
{/X-Men}
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Hey, where can I sign up to open another "Performance Rights Agency" and collect royalties for any copyrighted material over there? =) Sounds like a great business plan: just go around collecting royalties and pay yourself a nice hefty salary. Pay a couple of cents for artists that happen to ask for a cut of those royalties. :)
What's so special about that PRC, that entitles them to do that on behalf on all artists? Why can't a man from the street start his own agency?..
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Whoops, misread your post!! Sorry!
backwards going we are? (Score:2, Insightful)
This is insane! It's like we are going back to the dark ages...
I just can't imagine that there are people sitting some where in a room that can actually think of ways like this to milk innocent people for more money.
Ah - and now you will tell me that the devil made them do it - and for once we all might agree on /. :-)
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Congratulations, you win today's award for the "Lowest Possible Depth Sunk To Slur Microsoft".
The article, in case you hadn't noticed, was about "Music for Horses", NOT "Microsoft". I realise they both start with the letter "M", and this obviously stimulated one of your three neurons enough to generate your post. Really, is there no limit to these trolls ?
Multiple Radios? (Score:2)
This is pretty stupid though.
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Different stations, with earplugs.
If only one person is listening to each radio, it's not a public performance any more.
And the stuff can listen to what they like, since they really don't like the classical. (Although, she would then have problems with some staff playing head-banger music loud enough to spook the horses through the plugs.)
In Holland it's even worse (Score:5, Interesting)
I have a business at my home with me being the only employer. But I received a letter from the SENA (equivalent of PRS) stating that I need to pay for music played in my own home, for my ears only. The letter showed 2 options: "1. I don't play music at all" and "2. I do play music, please send me a check". I missed the option "3. I have a private business in my home without any personnel so I can play any music I like for free, sod off". I complained about that and after a few months and several letters, I got the answer: "you're right sir, but most people pay anyway!" We're talking about 90 Euro each year minimum.
Please note that this SENA is backed by the government. It's a crooked world.
Re:In Holland it's even worse (Score:5, Insightful)
...I received a letter from the SENA (equivalent of PRS) stating that I need to pay for music played in my own home, for my ears only.
Same shit applies in most European countries - seen it in Belgium. The irony of the case I saw, was it was a Thai supermarket - they only played music off imported Thai CDs. Do you think any of the original artists get a cent from this collection body?
No, neither do I.
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Isnt that fraud?
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If there is legal backing for at least some of the money they take, it suddenly becomes a lot harder to convince anyone in authority that it is an orchestrated fraud rather than a mistake.
Or, to put it another way, you have to make a lot of mistakes before anyone will suspect foul play.
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For Dutch people: look here [vrijschrift.org] for a short FAQ regarding what to do about these letters (summary: ignore them, they're misleading and baseless if you just play music for yourself).
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Don't tell the PRS (Score:4, Interesting)
Oh Great (Score:2)
This is demonstrated by dogs ability to create their own music, howling or barking with patterns of intricate information.
This means that next time the dog barks I will probably have the PRS round to collect royalties on behalf of him!
Double dipping (Score:3, Interesting)
The thing that really annoys me about this is that the PRS wants you to pay for listening to publically-broadcast radio. The radio station has *already* paid the PRS, so this is double dipping. The PRS, incidentally, also wants you to pay if you listen to *talk* radio.
Here are some Public Domain & Copyleft music (Score:2)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sound/list [wikipedia.org]
Problem solved.
We need an LRS (Score:5, Interesting)
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We need a Listener's Rights Society, where we can be compensated for hearing music we DON'T want to hear. Think about it, how many times do you hear an awful song in a situation where you can't turn it off? And they want royalties for that?!
Bring it on!
I can't wait to see Brittney Spears and Michael Jackson made bankrupt for offending my ears!
Simple (Score:2, Redundant)
Sound recordings in the 1950s were adequate quality so invest in some vintage vinyl.
Rip it, run it through a scratch and pop removal program, mp3 it and play that to the horses.
50 years, then copyright expires, so she can go and get any old record published before 1959 and play that without hindrance.
They take her to court, she screws them for libel. :)
You guys are being unfair (Score:2)
I mean, think about it. If she weren't letting those horses listen for free, they might have had to go out and purchase the CDs themselves, which is the very core of her sins against the music artists! I mean, if we allowed this, what next? Would she try to hang a painting up in there for just anybody to enjoy who could see it?!? I think you see the sort of anarchy, mayhem, and potty-mouthed language that would ensue in a world where music was just allowed to carry out over free and unencrypted manure-l
Lying in the headline. (Score:2)
This is not about playing music for horses. Rather, it is about her playing music that her employees can here. The latter is enough for ridicule, but lying in the headline undermines any argument made by the article.
Vermont Public Radio (Score:2)
Re:Isn't classical public domain? (Score:4, Informative)
Copyright laws do distinguish between the work, and the performance thereof.
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Wilts is short for Wiltshire, which is in the UK. Let me Google that for you, just to confirm. [lmgtfy.com]
It's fine to list a state or county in lieu of listing a country, when it's made clear elsewhere in the summary that this took place in the UK.
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That's like saying "Washington, USA", what's the OP thinking? It's a bit easier with the UK in that people were a bit more imaginative with place names, so there aren't so many duplicates.
Lot of good it does us being imaginative if the Americans copy all the place names anyway (Boston, Cambridge, Plymouth, (New) York..... ).
It is rather presumptuous of Americans to assume we all know what their fifty odd state abbreviations
Agreed, but the same should apply to county abbreviations. It also raises the question of whether you should write England or UK. I was taught to write England as a child, but UK seems to be common these days. Of course, at some point we could argue that we should reflect changing realities by writing EU instead.
Posted from Galle, I will leave you to Google for the count
Re:Wilts isn't a country (Score:5, Informative)
It also raises the question of whether you should write England or UK. I was taught to write England as a child, but UK seems to be common these days.
"England" and "UK" are different things. And "Great Britain" is different again. The most general designation is "UK", or, to give it its full designation, "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", from which you'll be able to work out that "UK" includes Northern Ireland, "Great Britain" is the rest of the country. Great Britain is, in turn made up of England, Scotland and Wales. Calling somebody from Scotland "English" is likely to go down about as well as calling somebody from the deep south of the USA a "Yankee".
England and Wales have a common legal system; Scotland and Northern Ireland each has its own legal system. So when talking about legal matters, it's best to be specific and say "England", "Scotland" or whatever. When referring to the country, it's "UK". The term "Great Britain" seems only to exist to piss off the Irish, as, for instance, when we refer to our Olympic team as "Team GB" thereby ignoring the Northern Irish contribution.
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So, in this case: UK is the country, Britain is the rock, and these English are wankers. j/k
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Holy crap no wonder you guys lost your empire!
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The issue is a bit confused by "Country" having multiple meanings. You're right, of course, that England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales are countries (I'm something of an English nationalist, so it's important to me, too), but within normal usage of the term so is the UK (who, outside of governnment, would use the term "unitary state"?)
The countries that make up the UK stand in a similar relationship to the UK as States in the USA do to the USA as a whole; they have their own legislatures (except Wales) but t
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Somewhat of an odd position to take since the Act of Union [wikipedia.org] was voted in by the Scottish Parliament and was an entirely voluntary arrangement. Of course as is typical of relations between Scotland and England this act was basically about bailing Scotland out of the fiscal creek they'd gotten themselves into - a pattern which continues to this day. Scots of course will claim that they've been ripped off on oil revenue recently, forgetting that a
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Re:Wilts isn't a country (Score:5, Funny)
Hello, I'm the original submitter. Sorry I didn't think of adding UK after Wilts. I thought people would figure out from the insanity of the story that these were the British we were talking about.
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Almost, there seem to be some extra steps required though
But if we both listen to the same radio ...
And if when some work experience temp from the PRS phones me up and asks "Do you play music for your staff" I say "Why, yes I do !" then I have to pay for it.
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Better not pick up any more hitch hikers then, because my car stereo could be deemed a public performance.
This used to be only about bars, clubs, oil-rigs (for some god only knows reason) etc where it was considered public perfromance ... now they've started restricting HORSES and anyone who "just happens to be within earshot" ?
Where the fuck did we go wrong ? I've been on this rock for 41 years, and I can't put my finger on exactly when we lost all semblance of common sense and discretion ?
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You are forgiven my son ... hell, you have to be able to copycat entire articles before you can become an author here !
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if she wrote a letter and the PRS quoted it, they'd be breaking copyright without her permission.
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