Over 100 Missing Episodes of Doctor Who Located 158
MajikJon writes "The BBC junking policies of the '60s and '70s resulted in the loss of hundreds of episodes of the classic series in its earliest years. Through the work of ardent fans over the succeeding decades, dozens of these lost episodes have been painstaking recovered and added back into the BBC archives. Now, it seems, the searchers have struck the mother lode. According to the Wikipedia, there are currently 106 missing episodes of the serial. If reports are correct, we may finally get to see all the episodes."
This is still not actually confirmed (Score:5, Informative)
The BBC have not confirmed this and it has been rumoured already for months now, hardly an exclusive by the Sunday People as the article claims, but maybe there is a chance the BBC will say something about these rumoured negoiations this time.
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Re:This is still not actually confirmed (Score:5, Funny)
Interesting. (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not a fan of the series in any incarnation, but assuming the report is accurate, I'm thrilled that those that are fans may finally be able to dig a little deeper into the archives.
And thanks to the internet being the world's most effective copying machine, if these episodes do release, we'll never have to worry about this particular series going dark again.
I'm always a little intrigued by some of the other long-running shows where archival is not (at the time) a financially sound move. I have to wonder exactly how many episodes of, say, daytime soap operas are lost. Many? Most? The airing schedule on some of the longest-running is so frequent that catching up from a series from beginning to end (if it were possible) would take 6 or so years if you tried to plow through at 40 hours a week.
Re:Interesting. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not a fan of the series in any incarnation, but assuming the report is accurate, I'm thrilled that those that are fans may finally be able to dig a little deeper into the archives.
It's a tabloid newspaper, on a Sunday, when all the journalists are at home, and they just make shit up instead. I'm going for 100% untrue, until proved otherwise. Fan sites seem completely dismssive also.
Re:Interesting. (Score:5, Informative)
I also wonder what condition the reels will be in.
Someone on another thread discussing old Doctor Who episodes pointed out that early tape stock was an absolute nightmare to keep in decent condition, and the expense was sufficient enough that the BBC decided it was too expensive.
It wasn't that they just carelessly throwed their archives away.
Re:Interesting. (Score:5, Informative)
But these would be (if they existed, which they probably don't) distribution copies for foreign broadcasters, not the original tapes.
These distribution prints - which were 16mm film, not tape - were passed from country to country, usually ending up in the tail ends of the empire in Africa & Asia. They were supposed to have been returned or destroyed at the end of their tours, but it wasn't unusual for them to be put into storage, grabbed by local staff for their own archives, or sold on the sly to broadcasters in neighbouring countries.
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These distribution prints - which were 16mm film, not tape - were passed from country to country, usually ending up in the tail ends of the empire in Africa & Asia. They were supposed to have been returned or destroyed at the end of their tours, but it wasn't unusual for them to be put into storage, grabbed by local staff for their own archives, or sold on the sly to broadcasters in neighbouring countries.
I wouldn't be shocked if someone had been striking copies of the films either.
Re:Interesting. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Interesting. (Score:5, Insightful)
In other words, the episodes would be lost forever if not for blatant copyright infringement.
Re:Interesting. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: Interesting. (Score:3)
Re: Interesting. (Score:1)
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The program tapes were steel magnetic tape. It wasn't the responsibility of the individual production teams to archive material. They had a deadline to make and at that deadline they had to have everything in a can, ready to send. Once sent out at the end of the week, they re-used all the tapes to produce the next episode and discard the ones that were too worn out.
There wasn't any archive department at the time. These days, a master copy is sent to an archive as well as sent out to the distributors.
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I also wonder what condition the reels will be in.
Someone on another thread discussing old Doctor Who episodes pointed out that early tape stock was an absolute nightmare to keep in decent condition, and the expense was sufficient enough that the BBC decided it was too expensive.
It wasn't that they just carelessly throwed their archives away.
Uh, no. The BBC was too cheap to buy more tapes, and reused the Doctor Who (and other aired show) tapes to record new shows. Losing tapes has NOTHING to do with tape quality. As a matter of fact, a few episodes were digitally reconstructed from tapes in worse shape than anything sitting in the BBC archives.
Re:Interesting. (Score:4, Interesting)
It's a tabloid newspaper, on a Sunday, when all the journalists are at home, and they just make shit up instead. I'm going for 100% untrue, until proved otherwise. Fan sites seem completely dismssive also.
The proof is in the pudding, but I will point out that the tabloid newspapers tend to have better fact checking than the mainstream news because of the risk of getting sued for libel. It's unlikely that somebody'll sue them for reporting incorrectly that episodes of Dr. Who have been recovered, but they employ people to verify facts because it's *very* likely that somebody'll sue them if they report that Celebrity X got arrested after a 3-hour high speed police chase, and that they were high on cocaine, completely naked, and had a dead hooker in the boot at the time.
Re:Interesting. (Score:5, Informative)
It's unlikely that somebody'll sue them for reporting incorrectly that episodes of Dr. Who have been recovered
Hence the increased possibility that if they had to make something up to fill space they decided to go for this instead of something involving Harry Styles, Hazell Dean, a lorryload of quaaludes and a goat.
The proof is in the pudding
No, "the proof of the pudding is in the eating".
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No, "the proof of the pudding is in the eating".
Oh crap, then what's this pile of brown stuff in front of me?
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I have to wonder exactly how many episodes of, say, daytime soap operas are lost. Many? Most? The airing schedule on some of the longest-running is so frequent that catching up from a series from beginning to end (if it were possible) would take 6 or so years if you tried to plow through at 40 hours a week.
Generally, when you skip a year or so, the same conversation is still ongoing. So watching an episode per season is enough
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And thanks to the internet being the world's most effective copying machine, if these episodes do release, we'll never have to worry about this particular series going dark again.
Why do people have so much more faith in the Internet than any other medium before it? It is young and requires an incredible level of infrastructure to exist and advanced factories to maintain. Do you know how much data you would lose access to if your country were without even power stations for even a couple of days? How long did it take for civilisation to be able to build a thermionic valve, let alone a modern CPU?
Re:Interesting. (Score:5, Insightful)
Because copying data is exactly what the internet is for. If this "incredible level of infrastructure" - the internet, the power grid, and modern computing - ever goes away, I'll have much bigger concerns than idly thinking about the fact that someone out there has a hard drive with Dr. Who episodes that they can no longer watch.
Short of that sort of civilizational collapse, that content is effectively around forever.
It took three years for OiNK to archive 200,000 torrents. It took nine months for the biggest of the trackers that OiNK's closure caused to get to that point, six more months to double to 400,000, and has grown since.
So, yes, I have faith that either the internet will archive this content adequately, presuming the shit doesn't hit the fan so hard that video entertainment and the preservation of history is the least of our worries.
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The important thing in all that is that it's Doctor Who, not Dr. Who.
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The history of the last ten years is one of the RIAA and MPAA trying and failing to put this genie back in the bottle via lawsuits and legislation.
Frankly, I find these failures a bit of a back-guard action. We need to decide, as a society, whether or not we want to be participants or mere consumers in our culture. Never-ending copyrights run contrary to the intent of copyright law (assuring a productive public domain), and contrary to participation in the culture (record labels looking for a paycheck eve
Re:Interesting. (Score:4, Informative)
The first episodes of Monty Python weren't received that well when first aired either, if things had gone differently those could also have been lost.
Apparently the BBC *did* consider erasing the Monty Python master tapes [chicagotribune.com].
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They started repeating Neighbours on UK Gold from the start, so someone must be keeping those tapes.
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I haven't seen the show yet, but have heard a little about it. Dr. Who is a sort of time traveling detective, that is apparently victorious once-again having re-released his complete recorded video-taped series for the masses to consume and enjoy; thwarting, for now, his time-traveling enemies. I hope I've accurately understood the gist of this current episode. Long live Dr. Who!
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I don't know when this stopped being the case, but in the early days, the daily soaps were broadcast live; there were no tapes.
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I was referring to shows that have run for decades without any real secondary market: shows like Guiding Light, As the World Turns General Hospital, Days of Our Lives, and One Life to Live.
If you want to power through those, that is a dark place and I cannot join you.
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Game shows (except QI which isn't really a game show so much as a chat comedy show, which I download) and soap operas are so far out of my peripheral vision that I sometimes forget they still exist. I don't have a cable subscription or use broadcast television, so anything I watch is something I stream or download.
My last connection to them was when I still lived with my parents during high school, and my mother had a few favourites she'd watch. The entire idea of watching a show at a pre-scheduled time i
Mailed to the BBC in a blue envelope (Score:5, Funny)
With a note that read. "You're welcome; please be more careful next time. -The Doctor"
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spoilers...
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Sweetie!
Old news? or confirmed rumors (Score:1)
http://bleedingcool.com/2013/06/13/wqill-doctor-who-have-a-very-special-surprise-for-us-in-november
3 month old rumour (Score:3, Informative)
I don't think so somehow, is this what passes for news on
Re:3 month old rumour (Score:5, Funny)
is this what passes for news on /. now ?
Look at it this way: The news is only three months old, there isn't a dup on the front page (yet), and it's from a sleazy tabloid rather than a blog about someones blog about a sleazy tabloid article they saw on reddit.
I'd say it's a step forward!
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Can I quote you on that?
is this what passes for news on /. now ?
Look at it this way: The news is only three months old, there isn't a dup on the front page (yet), and it's from a sleazy tabloid rather than a blog about someones blog about a sleazy tabloid article they saw on reddit.
I'd say it's a step forward!
Yep, apparently I can.
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It's what gets published in the Sunday Edition of Slashdot, actually.
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is this what passes for news on /. now ?
"News for Nerds. Stuff That Matters.", it doesn't get any bigger than this.
Nothing is lost, at least in space. (Score:2)
I don't believe it (Score:5, Informative)
At any rate, if Ethiopia has got anything, they never bought the broadcast rights to the Troughton era, so all we'd have to recover at best would be a handful of Hartnells, but still better than nothing.
BUT just suppose the rumour is true, could the BBC have kept it quote for all these months? Ostensibly yes. The two episodes found in 2011 were "found" in the summer but this was a well kept secret until "Missing Believed Wiped" at the British Film Institute in December. Even the programme said they would be showing "1960s BBC Science Fiction" with no mention as to what it was. No one had a clue until much closer to the event. And when "Tomb of the Cybermen" was found in 1991, the BBC put out a cover story that it was simply four episodes of an already existing story. The secret was apparently kept hidden for at least a few weeks; all other missing episode "finds" have been quite quickly reported.
Lastly, a little plug for my own website [paullee.com] about the missing episodes of Dr.Who.
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You catch more flies with honey... have the BBC put out a bounty per episode:
Master tape - $100k
Over the air recording - $50k
Alternate duplicate recordings - $10k
That's $10.6 million for whoever can find those 106 originals.
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Actually, all 106 originals fit on just three master tapes: they're bigger on the inside than they are on the outside.
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so all we'd have to recover at best would be a handful of Hartnells, but still better than nothing.
Whipersnapper.
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I'm astonished at the amount of tinfoil expended over something of so little consequence, and which will be so easily proven (true or false) shortly?
Above all, one has to ask: WHY would anyone contrive a story about lost/found episodes of a tv show?
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It is similar to trolling, without the excuse of "I'm trying to populate my killfiles"
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I've spent a little time in Ethiopia and I don't believe it either. I didn't go there to watch TV and don't claim to be an expert on the country, but it just seems highly unlikely. Sure, they have TV channels in Ethiopia, but the level of TV ownership now is nothing like in the west, let alone sometime around the 70's when these tapes might have been bought. I've seen no obvious references to science fiction in the popular culture. English isn't widely spoken outside tourist areas (and in medicine), it's be
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We don't remember what we saw, only what we felt. (Score:4, Insightful)
When I was in seventh grade I saw a movie with a typical bollywood number set on the Moon. Craters and boulders and stuff with the leading pair dancing and singing. I remembered it as a magnificent big set. After some 40 years I happened to see the same sequence, in an old is gold DVD set. The set was cheesy, tacky, at most 40 feet by 30 feet, craters were of just two sizes, nearly perfect circles, in a kind of semi uniform spacing. The leading pair looked horribly over made up. The only thing that was still great was the song. I was humming it for a couple of days. [*]
Whan I was young my dad used to take to the bank and I used to think the tellers were sitting on very tall chairs behind impossibly tall counters. Turns out that was just the perspective of a child who has to look up at everything. Once I grew up these counters seemed quite normal, at most 4 or 4.5 feet tall.
The point is, even if we unearth all those missing 106 episodes, the actual episodes might not stand up to all the hype and expectation heaped up on them.
[*]: For the Desis out there: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6UeorX-aVo [youtube.com]
Re:We don't remember what we saw, only what we fel (Score:5, Interesting)
The point is, even if we unearth all those missing 106 episodes, the actual episodes might not stand up to all the hype and expectation heaped up on them.
'Tomb of the Cybermen' actually did, for me, at least. I thought it was a rather slick production given the budget. Other stuff from that era is distinctly variable in quality (e.g. the little city model in 'The Krotons' which I honestly thought was supposed to be a heap of stones).
Nostalgia doesn't really enter into it for me because I never got to see the original broadcasts. In actual fact I only got into Dr. Who really when they repeated the Tom Baker episodes in the 90s and I found them to my liking.
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Though it's interesting to see that with Tomb of the Cybermen, not everyone [archive.org] felt that way:
Personally I love the early Doctor Who episodes, especially Tomb of the Cybermen, but I have to be honest that the quality of some of the
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The point is, even if we unearth all those missing 106 episodes, the actual episodes might not stand up to all the hype and expectation heaped up on them.
Indeed. The show was much more firmly aimed at kids back in those days, compared to the more adult aim of recent years. Viewers accustomed to seeing the current show would be flabbergasted with those early episodes. It's the same show in name only.
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It's sort of like when I saw Voltron on Netflix. I remembered loving that show back when I was a kid. So I played the first episode to relive the wonderful days of my youth. Only I was suddenly watching a show riddled with plot holes (I give some leeway for kids cartoons, but these were huge), bad character motivation, and really cheesy lines. It was horrible. I don't know if the first few episodes were just always that bad and it got better or if my memory of their quality has been "enhanced" by being
BBC used to wipe all their shows (Score:2)
Jobs! did the unions do it? (Score:2)
The BBC's old policy is being partially blamed on the actors unions of the time. They didn't want reruns without having the actors repeat the performance and had an agreement limiting replays. Once that limit was reached, the recording was useless.
Thinking about how technology TAKES JOBS AWAY... just imagine if such policies continued... we would employ scores more actors than we do today; the big stars wouldn't get paid as much but they'd have to work more hours. We still have theater shows and without
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This was a short sighted and incredibly stupid move by the BBC as well U.S. broadcasting corporations at the time.
Oh, come off it. You can only say it was short-sighted and stupid NOW, given you live in a culture where everything is designed from the ground up to be painfully target-marketed and re-sold over and over again as kajillion-disc box sets. But back before the entire concept of home consumer video was invented, nobody could reasonably be expected to even conceive of the idea that, in fifty years, this one very specific programme out of the hundred or so other nondescript programmes they shoved onto the airwaves will be a runaway hit AND that people will have near-ubiquitous access to watch it repeatedly in their homes at their leisure, all using technology that, at the time, was either completely absurd to think of, cost obscene amounts of money, and/or took up way too much physical space to be practical in any way, shape, or form.
It's like saying that, in Edison's and Tesla's time, they were so incredibly short-sighted and stupid to not just use nuclear power plants to generate electricity. Or that Edison should've just come up with the iPhone's camera instead of wasting his time with the kinetoscope.
Consumer video? Ever hear of reruns? Reruns were already popular on TV by the 1960's. Maybe reruns didn't exist in your country, but they were popular here in the States. If we followed your line of reasoning...All time classics like "The Honeymooners" , "I Love Lucy", "Superman" and other classic shows from the 50's, 60's and 70's would have been ended up in the trash compactor because 'consumer video' wasn't invented yet.
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copyright was mainly intended for books, you know
This could be as painful (Score:3)
As watching Star Trek TOS re-runs. And possibly as painful as watching $YourFavoriteSciFiShow in 20 years. :)
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By coincidence, I just recently started watching Blake's 7 for the first time. Looks straight outta 1950, for sure.
i never had a problem finding these (Score:1)
seems like the bbc should look at http://watchseries.lt/serie/Doctor_Who_(1963) [watchseries.lt] and http://watchseries.lt/serie/doctor_who [watchseries.lt] they are quite easy to find
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Find me a complete copy of "The Power of the Daleks"; "Fury from the Deep", or "Marco Polo"-- then we can talk.
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http://www.ovguide.com/the-power-of-the-daleks-9202a8c04000641f800000000060b88d [ovguide.com]
fury from the deep is series 5 ep 29 on http://watchseries.lt/serie/Doctor_Who_(1963) [watchseries.lt]
marco polo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s07Djgmt3M0&fmt=18 [youtube.com]
just type watch series online dr who and name of episode :)
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Did you even bother to watch them? They aren't the original episodes, they are reconstructions of the episodes. The audio from most of the lost episodes has been available for a while; I don't know why/how that was saved when the video wasn't. But the reconstruction places that audio with what available video there is and stills from on-set photographs, and publicity photos, and even viewers photos of the tv screen.
So, yes, I can watch Macro Polo, and have. But I saw barely any movement, and half the action
Worth saving, but for different reasons (Score:3)
One Small Step (Score:1)
Maybe they'll find the Apollo 11 originals in the stack
Hopefully (Score:1)
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no, that was a single episode of "Outlaw Star"
And this is important? (Score:1)
Undoubtedly, to people who have no life and are as bad as the most diehard of Star Trek fans/nutcases this is very important. Granted, "Doctor Who" is a cultural icon and it's nice that a big gap in the series has been rediscovered. However, I would be getting much more excited if, for example, some more lost or portions of fragmentary works of Archimedes were rediscovered [wikipedia.org].
More news (Score:5, Informative)
Please... (Score:2)
Just hope they don't get sued in the likes of 20 million a tape...
Very strange indeed... (Score:1)
tougue tied (Score:2)
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Even if this story were true (which I have my doubts) but the audio was some localized dubbing, it would be very good news. The BBC has audio from all of the missing episodes. All they would need to do is strip out the localized dubbing, overlay the audio they have, and match it up to the video. It might not be 100% perfect, but they could get it good enough for fans to enjoy the lost episodes again.
Story on BBC News Website: (Score:2)
The BBC News website has a story on it seemingly confirming that some number of episodes have been bound and will be revealed at a press conference later this week.
It's always possible this is one part of the Beeb not being in sync with the other, but it looks like it's more than just idle rumors.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-24448063 [bbc.co.uk]
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Obvious troll is obvious, but depending on where you set your standards, all science fiction, all fiction, or even the wonder of life itself is reserved for "for adolescents who never grew up". Put another way:
"We conceal it from ourselves in vain - we must always love something. In those matters seemingly removed from love, the feeling is secretly to be found, and we cannot possibly live for a moment without it." - Pascal
Re:Childish fad (Score:5, Insightful)
adolescents who never grew up
That's me!
The only people that want to be seen as grown up are people who aren't.
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people who aren't
Are we talking fast clones, androids or shape-shifting aliens masquerading as humans?
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It's depressingly true. The people who have grown up simply look on at the "childish" passion with envy. Sometimes envy masked with disdain, but unmistakable envy.
The exceptions to this rule are the people who are truly dead inside.
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"The exceptions to this rule are the people who are truly dead inside."
Londo Molari in Babylon 5:
"Something my father said. He was old, very old at the time. I went into his room, and he was sitting alone in the dark, crying. So I asked him what was wrong, and he said, "My shoes are too tight, but it doesn't matter, because I have forgotten how to dance." I never understood what that meant until now. My shoes are too tight, and I have forgotten how to dance."
What a damp blanket you must be: (Score:5, Informative)
"Who really cares? Some old grainy black and white kinescopes? BFD. The artistic merit compared to the childish cult-like following is nil. Dr. Who is for adolescents who never grew up. It is like cabbage patch dolls or beanie babies."
Dear heavens, isn't it horrible that someone might get enjoyment out of something you don't particularly like.
Do you also blow out candles on adult's birthday cakes and then sternly lecture them about how "That's just for kids"?
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There are a lot of shows that when you go back to them years/decades later are pretty campy. Look at some of the original Star Trek episodes. (I'm from the US, so can't comment on the BBC stuff as much.)
But, people still enjoy them. That's the whole point. Yes, maybe it's making a big deal of something unimportant. It won't cure cancer or stop war, but most things won't in this world. But if it's true, people will get excited about it. Old friends will get together for an evening watching the newly-found ol
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Do you also blow out candles on adult's birthday cakes and then sternly lecture them about how "That's just for kids"?
He's Vulcan. He blows out the candles because there was a fire hazard [memory-alpha.org].
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These episodes were recovered in 1991.
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And they're on Netflix... in Canada at least... :)
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Yes, The World Health Organization [who.int] does care..
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Horton hears them.
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"This is a really big deal for the BBC and is set to make them millions from the sale of the DVDs."
Hopefully the BBC doesn't make a penny selling anything related to these episodes. The BBC didn't want them. They shouldn't have them.
fta
As the corporation still owns the copyright the shows could be digitally remastered and shown again. The prospect will delight millions of fans worldwide.
Why do they need to own the copyright to remaster them? Fucking tabloid bs.
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Black and White?
I actually prefer The Goon Show. Which is monophonic audio-only radio broadcasts.
I used to have a 19" Black and White console (wooden cabinet) television. In a way I wish I still did.
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"ownership" of creative works are supposed to expire and these tapes are probably older than you are.