Panasonic To Stop Making LCD Panels For TVs (nhk.or.jp) 103
AmiMoJo quotes a report from NHK WORLD: Japanese electronics maker Panasonic says it will stop making LCD panels for televisions, giving way to fierce price competition. The pullout from TV LCD manufacturing follows the company's withdrawal from plasma TV production 3 years ago. They say they will continue to manufacture LCD panels at the plant for products other than televisions, such as medical equipment and cars. They say the company will keep making Panasonic-brand televisions, using panels supplied by other manufacturers. After Panasonic pulls out, Sharp and its Taiwanese parent firm Hon Hai will be the only producer in Japan.
Oh, how the mighty have fallen (Score:2, Funny)
"Pearl Harbour didn't work out, so we got you with tape decks."
In only 25 years, Japan's world leadership in electronics has cratered. Good work, LDP.
Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen (Score:5, Interesting)
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Of course it is easier to advance and experience the future when you don't have a military to support and the US gives large sums of money to Japan to keep bases there. Yes, I know that the reason they don't have a military is because of the terms of surrender post WWII with the US. But that doesn't change the reality that not spending billions per year on defense allows it to be reinvested elsewhere.
Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen (Score:4, Informative)
You might want to catch up on current (i.e. within the last 60 years) events... [wikipedia.org]
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If you read to the end of that wiki article you would find that Japan spends 1% of GDP on defense with most of it going to personnel costs. That is one of the lowest in the world. By comparison, the over the past 20 years has spent between 4.6% to currently 3.5%. For the US, that amounts to $829B which is greater than the federal deficit. If the US spent 1% of GDP on defense, then there would be no deficit and an additional $600B for US citizens to spend on goods and services. Think how that would spur th
Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen (Score:4, Informative)
Japan has a big advantage in that it's an island nation, so it doesn't need to spend much on ground forces. Even with China's growing strength, Japan still has the most powerful navy in the Far East and enough air power to defend the home islands. Japan lacks logistics capability, so it can't project power like the US or Russia. But that's okay; the Japanese people don't seem to have much interest in rebuilding the empire.
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Japan has a big advantage in that it's an island nation, so it doesn't need to spend much on ground forces.
And the US needs to keep our wimminfolk safe from those gaddammed Canadians! A bunch of poutine eatin' yetis, I'll tell you what!
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Japan's military is constrained in that it can't have nuclear weapons and can't build "offensive" weapons, which has always been read to mean "no aircraft carriers". But it does have helicopter carrying destroyers [wikipedia.org], which in the US would be assault carriers. There were constitutional provisions against deploying Japanese forces abroad, but those were, quite recently, effectively removed by the Abe government.
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"... this one deserves a honourable mention..."
In Japanese culture, that's what a comment is called.
Re:Oh, how the mighty have fallen (Score:5, Interesting)
This topic is really interesting to me. I had a professor a few years ago when I was doing postgrad that thought exactly that; that the Japanese had reached the capitalist endgame. He went on to explain (at great length) that the Japanese were still clinging to the original model of capitalism, and the only way forward was high tech communism.
What he meant wasn’t the communism of the Soviet era, but a communism in which menial work is left to robotics and AI with humans having the freedom to engage in creative pursuits, invention and leisure. He believes (and his arguments were quite convincing) that the Japanese have a HUGE supply productive potential with very little demand, and that their current socio-economic model is the product of not seeing the forest for the trees.
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What he meant wasn’t the communism of the Soviet era, but a communism in which menial work is left to robotics and AI with humans having the freedom to engage in creative pursuits, invention and leisure.
Yep, the industrialization/machines replacing human labor is what got Marx thinking.
If wealth is created without humans working then capitalism is not a fair way to distribute that wealth.
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The sentiments that job automation is a good thing is correct for the reasons listed (near-free cost-of-living), but communism and socialism are economically impossible. It's not a matter of getting the implementation right, but outright mathematics: Without a price mechanism, you can't tell if your resource allocation decisions are productive or not.
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He went on to explain (at great length) that the Japanese were still clinging to the original model of capitalism, and the only way forward was high tech communism.
Japan chooses to coddle and protect many industries that would be more productive if exposed to global competition. (Thus TPP is seen as a back-door way to achieve reform [weforum.org]).
The Economic Freedom Index lists Japan as only "Mostly Free" [heritage.org], notes:
"A web of close relationships among companies, politicians, government agencies, and other groups fosters a
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The specific issue with LCDs has happened before in Japan with other tech. Japan pioneers and dominates it for a while, but then it becomes almost a commodity product and everyone else is making the same stuff but cheaper so Japanese companies stop and move on to the next thing.
In this case Panasonic seems to think that the LCD panels available from other manufacturers are good enough, and that when combined with Panasonic backlighting and image processing and TV UIs will create a compelling product.
As for
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As for the falling popular, they have been trying to make children a more attractive prospect. Free nurseries and support for new parents, better employment rights for paternity/maternity leave etc. It's a hard problem to solve, but at least there is less opposition from people who feel they shouldn't have to contribute to other people's kids. It's seen as a national problem (which it is), not just an individual lifestyle choice.
I suspect that one of the most difficult problems to solve is the issue of people not wanting to be around children. Here in the west, if you are male, and especially a white middle aged male you are pretty much considered a latent pedophile. This in turn has the effect of making a lot of people simply avoid children altogether, much less want to have any of their own. Dunno what the situation is in Japan, but free stuff won't overcome the societies assuming that the father of a child is a sexual predator.
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Don't make such sweeping generalisations. Where you live that might be the case, but in much of the rest of the developed world this alleged persecution of white middle aged guys isn't happening. Oh won't someone please think of the poor middle aged white guys!?.
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Oh won't someone please think of the poor middle aged white guys!?.
Sorta made a sweeping generalization there yourself, spunky.
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Some good points there, especially on the isolationism and identity.
Fun fact: if you happen to be a fan of highly political and forward-thinking plot of the Ghost In the Shell shows (especially Stand Alone Complex), you get a solid vibe of what Japan is going to evolve into in what respects to the compulsive allowance their condition requires of immigration... And the cultural clash it causes in such a strong-willed nation.
I agree with suupaabaka's teacher opinion about a form of open communism, where no id
sad (Score:3)
Re:sad (Score:4, Insightful)
plasma production stopped because LCD screens were so much cheaper that it was no longer competitive. Likewise, they are stopping LCD screens for the same reason. They can't compete with the cheap screens being massed produced by others. They are staying in the niche markets where quality matters more than price, but how long is anybody's guess.
More importantly, since there is now only one major producers of LCD screens, how long before prices start going up?
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They are staying in the niche markets where quality matters more than price...
They are staying in the niche markets where the margins are much higher.
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They are staying in the niche markets where quality matters more than price...
They are staying in the niche markets where the margins are much higher.
Isn't that what I said?
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No, niche markets have nothing to do with quality. It's all about the price.
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No, niche markets have nothing to do with quality. It's all about the price.
Except their niche is medical and military grade, so there probably are specs they need to live up to.
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They are staying in the niche markets where quality matters more than price...
They are staying in the niche markets where the margins are much higher.
Isn't that what I said?
No no, you are both wrong. They are staying in markets where they make more profit........
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They are staying in the niche markets where quality matters more than price...
They are staying in the niche markets where the margins are much higher.
Isn't that what I said?
No no, you are both wrong. They are staying in markets where they make more profit........
You are all describing three sides of the same coin (yes, coins have three sides).
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They are staying in the niche markets where quality matters more than price...
They are staying in the niche markets where the margins are much higher.
Isn't that what I said?
No no, you are both wrong. They are staying in markets where they make more profit........
You are all describing three sides of the same coin (yes, coins have three sides).
And at least mine was trying to find more ways to say the same thing they did.
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No no, you are both wrong. They are staying in markets where they make more profit........
Actually, that's not true. It's not about the volume of profit, it's about the return on investment. Making $1M in profit from a $2M investment (cost) is a 50% ROI. Making $2M in profit from a $5M is a 40% ROI. Even though the latter makes more profit, it is a poorer ROI and thus a poorer decision. Most companies would choose the 50% ROI and take the extra $1M they didn't have to spend and invest it. In short, One shouldn't chase profits, but instead ROI.
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It wasn't the unit cost, consumers were willing to pay the extra for plasma. It was the development cost. Panasonic went to 4k for all it's mid and high end models that year, and developing 4k plasma screens was deemed too expensive. They felt that people wouldn't buy 1080p plasmas for similar prices to 4k LCDs, and 4k was the next big thing and reason to upgrade.
It's a real shame, I have yet to see a screen with colour as good as my Panasonic plasma, or motion. Plasma doesn't suffer from the ghosting that
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I'd gladly pay extra for good Plasma Screen TV's....
My current one is still working just great...59" Samsung higher end one I got a few years ago.
I'll be sad when it goes down and I have to move to LCD or whatever is out by then...but for movie watching, the DEEP blacks alone make my Plasma the way to watch....
I'm surprised they haven't kept developing and come out with a "High End" Plasma with 4K, etc....and sell to a higher end market which IS out there I do believe.
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But the development cost was already incurred. As such, since they were going to eat that cost anyway, they didn't have to figure it into the cost of the set.
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How was the development cost of a 4k plasma screen incurred when they didn't develop a 4k plasma screen?
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How was the development cost of a 4k plasma screen incurred when they didn't develop a 4k plasma screen?
Sorry, I misread your post to mean that since they had already moved to 4K for their high end models, that had included the 4K plasma and that the cost to the consumer would be too high. My mistake.
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plasma production stopped because LCD screens were so much cheaper that it was no longer competitive. Likewise, they are stopping LCD screens for the same reason. They can't compete with the cheap screens being massed produced by others. They are staying in the niche markets where quality matters more than price, but how long is anybody's guess.
More importantly, since there is now only one major producers of LCD screens, how long before prices start going up?
As well, plasma screens tend to throw off broadband noise - imagine each little element as a tiny spark radio transmitter.
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I the happy owner of a Panasonic plasma. Its been a great TV, great picture, great black levels, no issues in all the years I have owned it.
I would not buy one today though. The fact is improvements in back lighting technology and LCDs in general have let them more or less catch up to what plasma can deliver. You can get a LCD today that is image spec for image spec as good or better than our plasma panels that consumes a lot less power, weighs less, and does not need fans (which are sometimes audible) t
Just make a dumb TV (Score:4, Insightful)
I really just want a dumb TV. No android, no apps, no speakers just inputs.
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I really just want a dumb TV. No android, no apps, no speakers just inputs.
So... a monitor?
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Monitors lack TV tuners. So I myself would say No.
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"Just inputs" rules out a built-in TV tuner.
This is basically how I understood it, though technically RF counts as an input. The combination with "no speakers" was relevant here, because the tuner will also output audio in some form. I've yet to see a TV with a tuner but without speakers; if you're already bundling a display with your tuner, then you'll probably have speakers for a similar reason. (Does "just inputs" mean no outputs? In that case, how are you going to get the sound out of the tuner without speakers? ;)
As others have pointed out, t
Re:Just make a dumb TV (Score:4, Interesting)
Monitors lack TV tuners. So I myself would say No.
What's a TV tuner? Oh, you mean that DVB box between the HTPC and the antenna on my roof that has not been used in years, but we keep around in case of an extended internet outage? 99% of free-to-air is advert-infested reality TV and reruns. Anything decent I can get from their websites on demand, or "other sources".
And even if you do want DVB, what sort of Nerd uses the built-in tuner on a dumb TV?
Re: Just make a dumb TV (Score:3, Insightful)
Nerds don't necessarily pay cable bills. There are lots of other priorities.
Lots of us would rather order stuff from Digi-Key or Element 14 with that money. Or upgrade the stepper motors in the mill.
You don't call out nerds for not watching enough teevee.
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ATSC tuner
[googles ...] OMG! Why do you folks have to do everything differently? I sometimes wonder why you have not already dropped English for your own home-invented language. (I suspect Trump is planning that.)
I know why NTSC - the US implemented colour TV first, and by the time other countries adopted it, the technology had improved but NTSC was entrenched in the US.
But why not DVB? Is it because it is specified in metric units?
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The problem with using a dumb monitor as a TV is the lack of image processing. TVs heavily process images before displaying them, to account for differences between colour gamuts (especially with SD material), hide noise and compression artefacts, improve motion etc. PC video playback apps do some of that too, but generally speaking a video played back on a PC monitor will look inferior to the same video on a reasonably good TV.
Sources like DVB boxes and your HTPC don't do much or any processing, so will no
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PC video playback apps do some of that too, but generally speaking a video played back on a PC monitor will look inferior to the same video on a reasonably good TV.
I have color-corrected my moderately fancy Samsung 25.5" IPS with ye olde el cheapo eBay-sourced i1 Display LT, and a SyncMaster something or other. I also have a Viewsonic 25.5" IPS but it has atrocious persistence.
Anyway, what I notice about watching videos on my PC under Win7 and VLC is that if I let my GPU do the acceleration, the video looks snazzy AF. It's a 750 Ti, so it's both budget and old. I noticed that video cards that are actually fast are still over $200, and I'm cheap, but it seems to have v
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"And even if you do want DVB, what sort of Nerd uses the built-in tuner on a dumb TV?"
I do.
I use my antenna to watch the local network station morning news before I go to work. It is great for traffic, weather, and local news. You know things that are happening near me.
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I use my antenna to watch the local network station morning news before I go to work
But can't you get that over the internet as well?
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Not during a hurricane and frankly not local news. I can go and read the news but I can listen to the newscast on TV while getting ready for work. They could offer streaming over the internet and I can do that but it is easier to just turn on the TV and get the same thing.
Broadcast tv is a good technology for real time broadcasts of data. It works well and frankly is free vs internet. I have a generator so I can watch TV when the power is down after a hurricane when I might not have internet for days.
Frankl
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When's the last time you used the tuner in your TV?
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Every day since the TV was new. I haven't had a cable box in years and I haven't had cable TV in over a year.
Box rental for channels that don't need to be scrambled is a scam.
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Actually quite recently, I'm experimenting with HD OTA antennas for the local channels, in my quest to start cutting the cord....
I'm figuring if I can get (and record to DVR) local OTA channels, and streaming...I can get rid of UVerse once and for all......
So, the tuner is a part of the equation.
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Monitors lack TV tuners. So I myself would say No.
Then that would be an incredibly awful TV!
It has no speakers, and inputs only. So, OK, RF goes in, it displays pictures, but you're stuck watching silent films forever.
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I am currently sitting at a Samsung 25.5" IPS triple-input display (VGA, DVI-D, and HDMI) and not only does it have speakers, but it even decodes the HDMI audio from my PineA64. (My PC is connected to the DVI.) But it's got no tuner to mess things up. It does have dynamic brightness and contrast, but naturally I don't use them.
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Monitors lack TV tuners. So I myself would say No.
Then that would be an incredibly awful TV!
It has no speakers, and inputs only. So, OK, RF goes in, it displays pictures, but you're stuck watching silent films forever.
Displaying pictures is a kind of output. An input-only TV would not be terribly useful as a TV.
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I really just want a dumb TV. No android, no apps, no speakers just inputs.
So... a monitor?
Sure, a monitor... but with all the extra niceties that come with a TV. Built-in tuner, remote, ability to properly handle video refresh rates properly, lots of inputs/types of inputs, and even the increasingly unnecessary audio passthough can be helpful in some cases. Also, while speakers aren't necessary, a headphone jack would still be nice, because a cheap & easy way to set the correct audio delay on your receiver is to listen to the audio from your receiver and TV at the same time. Do it once an
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Which companies still sell those as new, good quality, and huge sizes today?
Re: Great, the Sharp and Hon Hai ones are garbage (Score:5, Informative)
Sharp has always tried do be 3/4 of the price and 1/2 the quality of Sony. I used to hate having to sell Sharp when I worked retail. So often I'd lose a customer for good.
AFAIK, Sony didn't make LCDs for their TVs, most of the panels are made by Sharp or Samsung (depending on the models). For the smaller Sony branded TVs, sony went with even cheaper taiwanese panel makers (e.g, CPT, AUO, CMO). Sony did augment their TVs with their own digital signal processing logic and LED back-lighting scheme, but I'm pretty sure panel was pretty much the same one in Sharp...
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Yep, mostly Samsung panels. Despite a power supply hum I enjoy our 52" Sharp AQUOS LCD, the picture is great from pretty much any angle and the brightness is great.
Well that made broadcast monitor buying easy (Score:4, Interesting)
There were only two manufacturers of professional TV monitor panels: Sony and Panasonic. Now there's one. Guess I'll grab another Sony before they realize they're a monopoly.
The irony of a Panasonic TV set with a Sony display is going to be great, though.
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Pro displays sound exactly like the higher-margin, lower-volume, more-specialized stuff that TFS says they'll continue to be doing.
That the bottom has fallen out of the television market doesn't mean that there isn't any profit left in making other LCDs.
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Fuck Sony and their evil ways.
If only the medical market worked like electronics (Score:2)
We would live to be 500 years old, all diseases would be cured, prescriptions would be $5 a fill, and surgery would be free if we handed over our personal preferences to advertisers.
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Which rock have you been living under?
If the medical market worked anything like modern electronics, we would on average be live to the age of three, and the first time we get sick, we would be euthanized because replacing the entire unit is cheaper than replacing a $0.10 capacitor.
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prescriptions would be $5 a fill, and surgery would be free if we handed over our personal preferences to advertisers.
True, but they might also abandon the heart transplant half way through, or possibly decide you wanted a new leg there instead. Also, the prescriptions would randomly stop working, and anyway they'd just change the formula and strength every week.
Or, to ressurect the old joke:
Bill Gates: If General Motors had kept up with the technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving
Survivor Taiwan (Score:3)
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How exactly does Taiwan run Shenzhen?
If you believe in Panasonic then clap your hands! (Score:1)
Come on Panasonic. Don't go into the light! You can survive this!
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Panasonic is a DBA of Matsushita IIRC. Like half the Japanese 'name brands'.
Re: If you believe in Panasonic then clap your han (Score:1)
Panasonic makes decent cheap alkaline batteries. And great capacitors.
Videophiles got ruined by clever, evil marketing (Score:2)
The LCD marketing folks with their "Plasma will use ALL the electricity, Plasma will DEFINITELY burn in, instantly!!! LCD picture is better anyhow!!! and Plasma will *EAT YOUR CHILDREN*" stuff, well they kinda won sadly...
RIP Plasma - I still have my Panasonic and even with the mild (very mild) image retention aside, I'll deal with it for the blacks and colours.
We still don't have OLED at reasonable sizes, with reasonable life expectancy and reasonable prices sadly. I'm just praying my 65" Plasma lasts
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No, "videophiles" are a bunch of early-adopting twits that cried when their favorite tech lost the war. It lost for good reasons.
1) LCD is cheaper. This is the main reason plasma lost.
2) LCD runs cooler. You don't need an extra A/C unit to cool the damned things. Doubly so for LED-backlit ones.
3) LCD has fewer problems with moving parts and/or spillable liquids. Kids drop shit and knock shit over, all the damned time. When it falls, does it break? When it breaks, does it make a mess and ruin the carpet? Pla
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If it's not permanent it's not technically burn-in.
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LCD was cheaper due to mass production, any product produced in high quantity like LCD would be cheaper.
Cooler running? At one point yes, Plasma was getting better every year, more efficient, cooler
Spillable liquids and carpets? I not only have no idea what you're talking about, but I googled and can't find shit on this either, my understanding is there is possibly a gas inside the panel, no liquid. Also the % of them which get smashed and you need to worry about the carpet, what?
Burn in? Was getting bette
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We still don't have OLED at reasonable sizes, with reasonable life expectancy and reasonable prices sadly. I'm just praying my 65" Plasma lasts me at least another 4 or 5 years. I'm hoping to see 85" or larger, OLED 4k displays under $2500 US by then.
Also, who wants "OLED" when every screen on the market is now called "LED" for their backlight only...
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Don't forget, reasonable frame latencies. I've been wanting to get a 55" 4k to use as a computer monitor for a while now. The prices have come down to about $1800 on sale, but the current models have embarrassingly bad 50 ms+ latencies.
The reason this is embarrassing is that the physical panel changes image in under 1 millisecond. The slow latencies are because the manufacturers are skimping on the chips used to drive them (or maybe the electronics for OLED don't have fast refresh chips available yet. I
The Race to the Bottom (Score:2)
Well that made broadcast monitor buying easy (Score:1, Offtopic)
You missed Toshiba (Score:3)
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"Toshiba" brand TVs in the US are manufactured by Taiwan-based Compal Electronics [techhive.com].