Watchmen Creator Alan Moore: Modern Superhero Culture is Embarrassing (bbc.com) 353
Is it embarrassing for adults to like superheroes? According to Alan Moore -- creator of the Watchmen series and widely considered one of the greatest comic book writers -- it is. From a report: He says superheroes are perfectly fine for 12 or 13-year-olds but adults should think again. "I think the impact of superheroes on popular culture is both tremendously embarrassing and not a little worrying," he says. Alan wrote Watchmen in 1986. The series depicts an alternate history where superheroes emerged in the 1940s and 1960s and their presence changed the course of history. He believes the characters are "perfectly suited" to the imaginations of a younger audience - but now, they serve a "different function, and are fulfilling different needs." The writer claims adults enjoy superhero films because they don't wish to leave their "relatively reassuring childhoods" behind, or move into the 21st century.
He's right... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: He's right... (Score:2)
He claims the lack of diversity in the comic book world suggests books and iconic characters are "still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race".
However... he may not be right about everything (snicker).
Re: He's right... (Score:5, Insightful)
He claims the lack of diversity in the comic book world suggests books and iconic characters are "still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race".
However... he may not be right about everything (snicker).
Make a superhero movie starring a black guy, earns a billion.
Make two starring women, both earn a billion.
Make a sci-fi starring a woman, a black, and a hispanic, earns a billion.
How can we blame this on white men? Correction. "How can we blame this on white men?"
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Apples and Oranges, man. The existence of apples does not mean there are no oranges, or that oranges aren't orange. The existence of diversity in superhero movies of the last five years does not mean that certain books and iconic superheroes are not white supremacist dreams of a master race.
A lot of writers of superhero fiction, like Steven Ditko, are extremely right wing. Iron Man was literally invented to piss of the hippies. Stan Lee himself said, "I think I gave myself a dare. It was the height of the C
Re: He's right... (Score:4, Interesting)
Alan Moore's objection with "modern" superhero culture stems from his dislike of superheroes in general; he thinks anyone who likes superheroes acting heroically is a cretin. In case you haven't noticed, he tends to write stories about how superpowers always bring out the worst in people, even if that worst is apathy.
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They made that over 30 years ago. It was called Toni's Boys [metv.com].
Re: He's right... (Score:5, Insightful)
"He's right... and there are few things more pitiful than seeing grown males in their thirties [insert thing they personally like]... but as there are few things more "closety" than [thing person likes], there's probably another angle to this.
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I'm in my fourties you insensitive clod!
Feel free to be embarrassed, then. (Score:4, Insightful)
I like what I like, and couldn't care less about judgments from a bunch of old coots who aren't my friends and never will be. One thing that *I* think is pitiful is seeing grown people in their thirties giving up things that make them happy so that they can get nods of approval from strangers.
I will bring a copy of Candy-land to game night if I damn well please.
Want to make a lot of money? Make superhero-themed movies with plots and character depth levels appropriate for adult demographics. Keep the shamey politics out of it and replace that with good writing and thought-provoking situations and rake it in.
That's the world now. Adapt or fail.
Let's mod some agency into Candy Land (Score:3)
I will bring a copy of Candy-land to game night if I damn well please.
I don't deride Hasbro's Candy Land, Chutes and Ladders, or Hi Ho Cherry-O because of their child-directed theming. I deride them because the games offer players zero agency [stackexchange.com], no control over the game state. With no player choices, the RNG completely determines who wins.
Now if you bring one of those games to game night, announce some rule changes to allow a measure of skill, and want someone to help play test them, count me the heck in.
Re: Feel free to be embarrassed, then. (Score:3)
Do you do anything other than just fling insults at people?
I have no idea why I don't get asked that more often...
I'd have to say "Yeah... but not as well."
Re:He's right... (Score:5, Insightful)
It can become a problem if it consumes your life to the detriment of your other important pursuits, but that's called addiction and isn't unique to entertainment, let alone one specific kind of entertainment.
Re:He's right... (Score:4)
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It is just weird to enjoy things that are intended to be enjoyed by children.
"Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is
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Re:He's right... (Score:5, Insightful)
Ok, I'll bite, WHY is it pitiful to see a grown man, in his thirties, wearing a Superman shirt? Because you don't like comics, or because you don't like Superman specifically? Why do you even care what other people like?
Your "closety" comment is pretty cringey too, and makes me think you believe that "liking Superman" is somehow equivalent to being a "closeted homosexual". I hope I'm interpreting that wrong, but even if that were the case 100% of the time, WHO CARES?
People are allowed to like whatever the hell they want. Stop trying to shame people for having hobbies and interests that make them more interesting than you.
Re: He's right... (Score:3)
Yup (Score:5, Interesting)
Moore is one of the crankiest of bastards, but he's not wrong. Watchmen, which in rereading, is an extraordinary takedown on the superhero genre. It's adult fiction. But, by and large, the superhero genre is adolescent entertainment. It's not so bad when it's tongue in cheek like the original Superman films, or Deadpool, but some of these films take themselves so seriously, and yet are so damned silly.
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I get the same feeling when I watch 'Starship Troopers', which Heinlein wrote as part of his 'young adult' series of books
Would much rather watch a film based on 'Time Enough for Love: The Lives of Lazarus Long', but it is really far too 'adult' to be made now
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> I get the same feeling when I watch 'Starship Troopers', which Heinlein wrote as part of his 'young adult' series of books
????
Are you saying the movie is a takedown of the book and just phrasing it badly?
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Well, only things the book and movie have in common are title, and a few character names...
Far as I can tell, movie was made by someone who disliked Heinlein, hadn't read the book, and didn't understand the point of the book....
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He's absolutely wrong.
Comics are just another form of scifi that can act as a conduit for thought experiments and exploration of different desires/emotions in a heightened manner.
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He isn't saying "Comic Books" are for kids. He is saying "super heroes" are for children.
His point is that these type of hero-worship stories aren't really what adults should be reading, but rather stories with more nuanced characters.I am sure he wouldn't mind adults reading "Saga" or "Sunstone".
Re:Yup (Score:5, Interesting)
The problem with that position is that it doesn't stand up to the test of history. The very first things we bothered to write down were "superhero" stories of figures like gilgamesh. Those stories, translated by stodgy old academics, have been so popular that they endure for thousands of years. Go back and read the stories of Beowulf or Jason. Sure, you might pick out some few points here and there that offer social commentary or moral tutelage, but it's mostly just killing monsters and feats of strength.
And it's not as if the creation of these stories ever slowed. The hero context may have become more or less obvious, but Verne writing about captain Nemo, or an innumerable dime novels of heros of the old west offer the same formula. Loose story, high action, often times with a nearly comical origin story.
To be honest, the Greatest Generation/Boomer rejection of super heroes as "for kids" is mostly a historical aberration. For the vast majority of human history, these stories were the bread and butter of firesides around the world, told and appreciated by all generations.
I've been saying this for years (Score:4, Funny)
Re:I've been saying this for years (Score:5, Insightful)
Thanks! If it's one thing my life has been needing, it's judgment and guidance from random internet posters. Otherwise, I am left to decide for myself and can't be trusted to make wise decisions.
You're just triggered. (Score:2, Insightful)
Because "he" made you feel inferior.
Not so meanigless after all, if he hit your trigger like that, is he?
See, that feeling of inferiority sat in you with or without him.
Because even you know, that what you are doing is shameful, *by your own standards*.
But isn't it convenient to project and attack somebody else for it?
How about standing up, and starting to either achieve someting great in life, or accept that life isn't usually actually like in the movies, and be happy... instead of hiding beind fantasies y
Re:You're just triggered. (Score:5, Insightful)
Someone was triggered, but I don't think it was Brett Buck.
Re: I've been saying this for years (Score:2)
Look, a boring person thinks boring thing.
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He should watch more explosions and men in tights punching things. Then he would be exciting, not boring. Derp.
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(this is not a troll, I mostly agree with you and curious to hear your thoughts)
Somewhere in the exceptions prove the rule... (Score:2)
...area.
And the Dark Knight was both not very superhero, given its anti perfect-super-human theme, and not much more than light entertainment.
Nothing wrong with light entertainment.
But not exactly enriching and life changing and giving you a new perspecive on reality, now is it?
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Comics and graphic novels are for kids. Adults should watch enriching cinema. It's hard to come across but IFC, AMC, and independent cinemas is a great place to start.
Right, but the fascinating irony is that for all the intellectual acumen of "geeks/nerds", most of them have a very low brow bar when it comes to film, or art/culture/music in general.
What is "enriching cinema" though? (Score:4, Insightful)
Adults should watch enriching cinema.
The problem for me with your statement in combination with Moore's statement is, what then is "OK" to watch?
Why is a superhero movie any worse to watch than some movie based on Jane Austin? What is in fact a movie that is "enriching cinema"?
I would say some, but not all, superhero movies can qualify as "enriching" if they have relatively deep stories with interesting an conflicting issues, that can make you think about complex problems in a larger world. Seems like that's a great vehicle for entertainment.
But to me, it has to be OK to have some entertainment that is purely for entertainment's sake, that is just something you enjoy with no larger purpose beyond that.
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Because superhero movies aren't based in reality and are superficial and Jane Austen type movies are social commentaries that have relevance to the real world (things that affect us all).
Re:I've been saying this for years (Score:5, Insightful)
Wrong. I got a stack of graphics novels out of Japan that are defiantly for Adults. Take my advice on this. Don't judge anyone by what they do in their free time if ti doesn't hurt you or anyone else. It's harmless and none of your business what they enjoy in their free time.
Graphic novels. Not superheroes. (Score:2)
Strawman argument. We were talking about superheroes and superhero comics.
Not about the style and form of communicating a story.
But about the content and mindset of that story.
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Adults should watch enriching cinema
Adults should read only non-fiction. The moving pictures provide only brain rot.
Also, more broccoli.
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Ironically that is probably good advice for an adult.
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We enjoy them because we fucking enjoy them.
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Long hours slogging away at work, sorry for wanting to relax for two fucking hours once every few months.
Wth is wrong with people?
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And yet your choice of "relaxation" after all that is to watch content that WAS DESIGNED FOR 12 YEAR OLD BOYS.
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Why the hell do you even care?
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Get over yourself dude. Neither you nor anyone else are anywhere near significant enough for our actions to have any effect whatsoever on you. If it does, then you are a pretty weak and pathetic individual; if you can't handle the fact that some people enjoy things that you don't.
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I'm living and enjoying my life is what I am doing. I have achieved comfortably ever after and am now enjoying the little things in life I ever got to really appreciate during the grind.
Entertainment (movies, gaming, etc) is just a small part of that. I have actually become rather fond of the more traditional activities lately, like fishing, hiking (well, that is on the list for next year), camping, toobing, biking, etc. House fixing up and gardening took up my non online entertainment time this past Sum
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"I'm living and enjoying my life is what I am doing"
Yes. And that is exactly what children do. No one is saying you shouldn't enjoy things, but there should be more to life than just watching explosions and people in tights punching each other.
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Not sure what else you expect. Besides, you completely ignored the rest of my post. If you had read further, you would have comprehended that passive entertainment of any type is just a very small fraction of my interests and activities. Most of my time is out here in the real world doing actual real world things, but you somehow missed that?
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"Not sure what else you expect."
That pretty much sums it up. Just forget it and enjoy your life.
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Re: I've been saying this for years (Score:2)
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You want 'adult behavior'? Here it is: Mind your own goddamned business.
Scifi in general gets no respect (Score:2)
Imagination is a powerful thing. And I can see real life every day at work. Scifi expands your brain, not the other way around.
What has that to do with sci-fi? (Score:2)
We weren't talking about sci-fi.
Besides, if anything, superhero movies are fantasy. Like Star Wars or Dune. Sci-fi is not about the future or technology and spaceships. The clue is in the name. It is *science* fiction. And super heroes are not about science at all. Unless you call Jar-Jar Abrams' concoctions "science fiction".
Besides, sci-fi only doesn't get enough love in backwards countries where science isn't liked, and people still believe in fairies and gods.
Angels, demons, and ghosts (Score:3)
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People don't generally believe Superman is real, would be one good start at a difference.
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People don't generally believe Superman is real, would be one good start at a difference.
It's not like angels, demons, and ghosts are real either.
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Differences that I can see is that these stories suggest that "you", the consumer, could possibly be that super hero with all those awesome powers.
After all many of these super heroes got their super powers through various means. They weren't just born with them like in the Greek myth of Heracles. Then you also have you
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If you had a more extensive knowledge of myth you'd know that not all Gods had their super powers at creation (though it's admittedly most common). E.g. Isis acquired her super powers by blackmailing the sun god.
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But still thanks for adding the information that it's the most common thing.
Simple: More eugenics, more military. (Score:2)
As I said: They are the wet dreams of those who want an augmented master "race", and a militaristic "final solution" to the "evil" out there. Pussies.
Might as well say that about any fiction (Score:3)
All fiction is fiction. But any fiction can reveal truths, if it's written to that end. Poorly written fiction is lame regardless of genre. Well-written fiction is engaging... regardless of genre.
You could make the argument that anyone who reads fiction is childish, but it would be just as dumb as this argument.
With that said, superhero movies are awfully samey. I don't get why anyone would go see most of them, when a video game would be more engaging. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, I just don't get it. Any time I watch any festival of CG I can't help but think that it would be better as a game.
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I'll bet he thinks video games are only for kids too. I wonder how he feels about movies involving mythological creatures or topics: vampires, werewolves, dragons, magic etc.
Just A Second Now... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: Just A Second Now... (Score:2)
Don't knock the boomer's soapbox. He was busy telling us how to adult right.
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I thought entertainment was supposed to be, well, entertaining, an escape from the daily grind and worry of our lives.
I'm thinking that adults look around at the way the world is today . . . and wish that they were 12 or 13 year olds again.
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It is, but you guys take it too far. Literally every other billion dollar movie now is some sort of comic book hero crap now. Maybe you should try "escaping" less often and face reality.
... and I'm proud of it (Score:2)
Of not letting my brain forget its child-side.
I DGAF about superhero movies, but there's plenty of stuff from childhood or teenhood or twentysomethinghood that I still enjoy.
Cultural Arrogance (Score:5, Insightful)
When the impressionists came along, the reigning art 'masters' called them popular crap, not real art. The same thing happens again and again.
Modern artists try new things and the old guard dislike them.
The Ring Opera (Der Ring des Nibelungen), by Wagner has Gods as characters, as well as super heroic mortals. Granted, Thor does not show up, but his father "Wotan" aka "Odin" does.
No one claims "Der Ring des Nibelungen" is not high art. Making art about gods and heroes does not in any way make it lesser. Old plays did not have access to modern special effects so the restrictions created by the media also do not really matter. What matters is the writing, and there is nothing about comic books that prevents good writers from creating one.
Granted, average comic books are not up to the quality of what is considered "high-water mark of our art" (taken from wikipedia page). If you want to compare something to the best opera, you must take the best comic, not a random one. And it may be that the best comic has not yet been written.
Which is the main problem. People always compare the average run of the mill art being generated today to the best art generated 100 years ago. So they say the modern stuff is crap, not because it is crap but because they are comparing the worst modern to the best ancient.
Comic books are art. 100 years from now, we will have had time to judge them and pick the best one. I am sure it will stand the test of time and compare favourably with Der Ring des Nibelungen.
Re:Cultural Arrogance (Score:4, Interesting)
Spot on. In high school when they taught us Shakespeare, they also taught us that the Globe Theatre was a raucous place full of drunks. The plays were popular, accessible, and in a dialect that everybody understood at the time. I drew direct comparison between rock shows and speculated that people would be studying The Who in class 500 years from now. I got laughed at.
Old man shouts at cloud... (Score:2)
... news at 11. We could say the same thing about many other things adults do, like the childishness of modern politics but you won't see most people own up to any kind of sophisticated understanding, they'll bury their heads in their own righteousness and ignorance. Movies are the least of our problems. We have a bunch of science rejecting weirdo's in the white house and a deeply ignorant religious slave class here in america that loves to scream about it's self righteousness which is actually the sourc
Re: (Score:2)
... news at 11. We could say the same thing about many other things adults do, like the childishness of modern politics but you won't see most people own up to any kind of sophisticated understanding, they'll bury their heads in their own righteousness and ignorance. Movies are the least of our problems. We have a bunch of science rejecting weirdo's in the white house and a deeply ignorant religious slave class here in america that loves to scream about it's self righteousness which is actually the source most politically conflict. Shit that actually needs to be addressed can't be because of the backwardness of parts of the public and the upper class. The upper class would love to keep everyone in a state of religous madness and backwardness so they don't have to pay for all they damage and shit they are causing.
On a smaller planet our world would break down into war and conflict with the scientifically illiterate because a people that rejects scientific knowledge cannot in anyway survive in the universe. That's the kind of shit we should be worried about. Adults liking kids and teen movies? That's the kind of shit no one of any intelligence should be complaining about.
At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Not a lack of good stories (Score:2)
The stories based on the comics are ok, but just ok.
The real crime is that there are so many other amazing stories out there that aren't made into films.
The whole concept is fucked-up. (Score:2)
If you look back in history, where they originated, you see, that they were merely the US equivalent of the German Nazis' equivalent of the "Übermensch". A kind of augmented, perfect "master face" human, everyone in the nation was expected to aspire to, and mainly a figure of racism- and eugenics-supporting propaganda.
The US was not exactly opposing those concepts either. It was all the rage, in those days.
And while "superheroes" have changed quite a bit, as people forgot that original intention, the k
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Because one guy wrote that and was then used by the Nazis?
These are all modern versions of ancient (2000+ years) heroic mortals with myths AKA tall tales, things that all cultures have by the way.
Not seeing any actual connection in your pseudoprofundity.
Wait, what? (Score:2)
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Little Suzie: "Dad, when did you decide to have children?"
Dad: "Well, right after I raped your mom."
Good kids stuff there.
Entertainment is for entertaining (Score:2)
The goal of entertainment, to paraphrase the great Tom Lehrer, is to help us escape from our drab, wretched lives.
"Literature" doesn't sell because it's unbelievably boring.
Art-house movies do poorly because they're unbelievably boring.
The vast majority of people don't care a whit about the human condition, because they're living it every day.
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You just said all those things, but don't see a problem with the things you just said. Unbelievable.
The Boys (Score:2)
I have no experience with the Watchmen series, but The Boys [wikipedia.org] is definitely not some child level fiction. It's chock full of adult themes (and I don't mean sex) that are relevant in the early 21st century.
So are most mythologies. (Score:2)
Short version: We can have multiple forms of storytelling.
Longer version:
Mythologies are childish too. So are most dreams. But people must dream - even if dreaming is absurd.
Why do stories have to only be limit-filled stories about how folks have to emotionally deal with purely real-life processes?
You know what the best story I've read in years is? One Punch Man. An absurdist power fantasy where the drama comes from both the lack of fulfillment the hero feels from the particular twist of the storyline,
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Not sure why you typed all that. He isn't saying anything different and that movies couldn't have fantasy or abstract elements. What he is saying is that modern superhero culture is stupid. Yes. "Batman" the movie is stupid. It is supposed to be seen by 12 year old boys. Nothing wrong with that, but it is not for you.
embarrassing? (Score:2)
I mean... https://upload.wikimedia.org/w... [wikimedia.org]
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Mod parent up
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And when as an adult your life offers you no challenge of the kind you biology built you for, you start looking for that existential struggle in the imaginary world. It's what gave rise to the twitter culture, where people gather into lynch mobs to save the world from imaginary nazis.
Twitter? Half those people don't even agree with their own biology.
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Denying your biology does not make you any less driven by it. If anything, it likely makes you more vulnerable to being driven by it, because not understanding yourself makes you less able to mitigate against your vices.
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It's blatant misunderstanding. Well, not totally, as he's talking about "superhero culture", where he may be correct, as I have no knowledge.
FWIW the time I grew up the Marvel comics were targeting themselves at university students, and the plots, though simplified, reflected that. Characters, even villains, that were developed as characters rather than being walk-ons, had reasons for their actions. The plots were simple compared to a novel, but complex compared to a vignette. Generally they were compar
Re:Thank You (Score:4)
Well don't read them or go see the movies. What someone else does in their free time, as long as it doesn't harm anyone else, should be none of your concern.
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
It does harm us, because you man-children are dumbing down society.
Re:Thank You (Score:5, Insightful)
It does harm us, because you man-children are dumbing down society.
This would be your option. When it comes to "your option" you have been wrong in the past on so many things. This is another one of those times.
If someone wants to invest their free time in reading comic books or watching superhero movies. Or if they get their jollies watching paint dry, as long as it hurts no one else, it is none of your concern. An in many cases, frankly, it's none of your business.
Honestly, the world would be a much better place if people, like you, concerned themselves less with what other people do for harmless fun the world would be a much better place.
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Yeah it is my business because we are a society and we are descending into an idiocracy because grown men are living like little boys. It isn't harmless fun because there are men out there that live their entire LIVES like that. It is embarrassing.
Re:Thank You (Score:4)
Wrong again. Damn, does it hurt to be this wrong, so many times, on so many things? Just wondering.
For the third time. I've heard that repeating something 3 times is enough to drive home a point to even a dog. Lets see if it works with you.
Repeat after me, "Someone elses harmless fun does not hurt me and is none of my concern. It doesn't harm me or anyone else. In the future I will concern myself with my own affairs and mind my own business in an effort to make the world a better place." Great, now repeat that 3 times.
An for the record I don't read or collect modern graphic novels and comic. I also don't own a single tshirt with a super hero, harry potter, or any other endorsement. I tend to wear jeans and rather boring single color t-shirts. I do have a a few comics that I kept from my childhood, including two copies of X-Men 101 that are rated in mint condition.
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Reminds me of This gem on e2 [everything2.com]
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Exactly. There are plenty of REAL heros out there.
Is that your way of saying ... (Score:2)
"Do you want fries with that?".
Seriously, ...
instant disqualification
for the loser generation
with no original ideas
like a pot full of peas.
Copypasta clone warriors
of the lamest degrees.
Everyone is a marrier
of his smartphone, you see.
And braindead carrier
Of the kraken online,
that sucked up their privacy
and personality just fine.
Re: "How dare adults have some fun" (Score:3)
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Don't sweat it. I mean, Alan Moore may be an award winning pioneer in the superhero media business but really he's just bitter that fans of his work misunderstand his message so frequently. For example, it should be obvious that Rorschach is not someone to be admired or emulated, he's a guy with serious emotional damage and untreated mental illness.
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> Rorschach is not someone to be admired or emulated
Obviously, it's not the character but the design. Rorschach needed a painted smile with bright colors. Er.... hmm. On second thought, I think it is clear that the only solution is tights. Heroes wear tights. The tighter the better. Anything else is too admirable and relatable that can be super imposed by the audiences' experiences. Like some kind of walking... ink blot test... for the audience.
Sorry, I'll stop.
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I see where you're going, but the inarticulate, inane chatter of the youngs is timeless. You could sarcastically mock the vernacular of a 19th century tween and while it may not make any sense, the fact that it's still just imbecilic chatter remains the same.
Re:Why can't we have both? No reason why not. (Score:4, Insightful)