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Belgian Farmer Accidentally Moves French Border (bbc.com) 91

Posted by msmash from the how-about-that dept.
A farmer in Belgium has caused a stir after inadvertently redrawing the country's border with France. From a report: A local history enthusiast was walking in the forest when he noticed the stone marking the boundary between the two countries had moved 2.29m (7.5ft). The Belgian farmer, apparently annoyed by the stone in his tractor's path, had moved it inside French territory. Instead of causing international uproar, the incident has been met with smiles on both sides of the border. "He made Belgium bigger and France smaller, it's not a good idea," David Lavaux, mayor of the Belgian village of Erquelinnes, told French TV channel TF1. That sort of move caused a headache between private landowners, he pointed out, let alone neighbouring states. The border between France and what is now Belgium stretches 620km (390 miles). It was formally established under the Treaty of Kortrijk, signed in 1820 after Napoleon's defeat at Waterloo five years earlier. The stone dates back to 1819, when the border was first marked out. "I was happy, my town was bigger," the Belgian mayor added with a laugh. "But the mayor of Bousignies-sur-Roc didn't agree."
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Belgian Farmer Accidentally Moves French Border More

Belgian Farmer Accidentally Moves French Border

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  • Nonsense (Score:5, Informative)

    by alvinrod ( 889928 ) on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @02:17PM (#61347286)
    If it were that easy he could have just moved the stone all the way to the Atlantic and there wouldn't even be a France left to complain. If I walk over to one of the speed limit signs and draw over the number on it, I haven't actually changed the speed limit of the road.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

      Your analogy is as bad as your knowledge of French geography. Beyond the fact that France extends far beyond the Atlantic, international markers are not governed by a single sovereign, but by recognition by multiple sovereigns.

      That makes laws governing them far more complex than a simple speed limit sign.

      • Re:Nonsense (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @02:25PM (#61347334)
        Isn't that his point? That the French border wasn't really moved, he just moved a marker of it which caused some confusion. Same with the speed limit sign, drawing on it might not really change the speed limit, but being unclear or impossible to read will cause confusion.

        • Re: Nonsense (Score:5, Insightful)

          by NagrothAgain ( 4130865 ) on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @03:50PM (#61347692)
          It depends on how the treaties are written. If the Stone is considered the actual Source of Truth then yes, moving it would move the border.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

            It could also result in legally recognized changes, e.g. in some jurisdictions if a mistake about where a boundary or border is happens and isn't noticed for a long time, people build stuff there or make use of the land, it can become official.

            Happens to land in the UK sometimes, someone builds something over the boundary of their property (like erecting a new fence in their garden) and 15 years later when someone checks the official record and notices they can't get the mistake undone.

          • The stone is never the source of truth.
            The source of truth is a measured point. Which coordinates are written in the books defining the border.

            And in case you are unaware: 3m below such a stone is a so called "witness". Usually the fragments of a kinda unique bottle of alcohol, that was emptied and then buried there before the stone was erected.

            The stone is a marker, that is all.

        • Germany tried moving the French border three times in the last 150-odd years, the last two times didn't work out too well. Mind you before that the French were busy moving the borders themselves. Why can't they just settle down and stop faffing around with things?

        • No, you see, because France extends all the way to the Pacific and includes all of England, speed limit signs are irrelevant.

      • "Your analogy is as bad as your knowledge of French geography. Beyond the fact that France extends far beyond the Atlantic, international markers are not governed by a single sovereign, but by recognition by multiple sovereigns."

        Yes and no. Most of the time it comes down to the bottom line of who is powerful enough to enforce their view.

        Belgium could very well demand the marker from an old treaty be recognized. France could turn their nose up at the concept and the gap would be legally disputed territory. T

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

          Not at all. Consider for example border between Russian and Estonia in the wake of collapse of Soviet Union. Theirs wasn't a happy parting, and border agreement was hammered out several times, only for the obviously much weaker party, Estonia actually throw it out when Riigikogu tried to ratify it.

          There is a lot more to consider in border negotiations and recognition in addition to power.

        • In the event of a border dispute like that, it would probably go "up" to the European level and be resolved there by external arbitration if the two affected parties can't come to a resolution between themselves. That is a very powerful incentive to the two affected parties to come to a resolution between themselves.

          Which is, of course, why Britain has lost out so badly on the fishing post-Brexit. The borders of maritime areas of control were settled in (IIRC) 1957 (spurred significantly by the extension o

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by guruevi ( 827432 )

      That depends on the treaty. The treaty basically said "the land will go from hither to yonder as signified by this here boulder" (read with a French accent). The farmer moved the boulder. Depending on how long ago this boulder was moved, surveyors could then start inadvertently including these changes in other legal documents, reaffirmed by governments and courts. After a certain amount of time, if this were a land dispute between two owners, these changes would've been grandfathered into future sales contr

      • Chances are that the exact location of the border was picked up digitally years ago. Moving the bolder might confuse someone looking at it, but wouldnâ(TM)t cause any legal conflicts. At least the US it is a crime to move a survey monument, and that fact is stamped on our monuments

        • That doesn't mean it is legally defined digitally. Yes, it is surveyed and recorded in GIS databases digitally, but if the treaty defining the border refers to the particular rock or tree, then that still governs unless a new treaty explicitly supersedes it. It's not a new problem, rivers changing their course have raised this many times over history. There are towns in Belgium/France where buildings straddle the border because the border is defined as specific walls or beams. Those buildings cannot be remo

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Bengie ( 1121981 )
        France owned the NFT to that boulder, but the reference got moved.

    • If I walk over to one of the speed limit signs and draw over the number on it, I haven't actually changed the speed limit of the road.

      You might change it temporarily. I don't think any tickets would be valid so long as the number you write is legal/reasonable.

    • Re:Nonsense (Score:5, Funny)

      by ZiggyZiggyZig ( 5490070 ) on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @02:39PM (#61347408)

      The 1940s telegraphed, the Werhmacht would like its masterplan back!

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by GuB-42 ( 2483988 )

      Great, now I am thinking about the geometric implication of having one point of the border in a weird place.

      For example what if you put the stone in Spain, in what country will you be if you sit right before the stone? It should be the country you consider the border of. If you consider the border of Spain, since you didn't touch it, you should be in Spain. If you consider the border of Belgium, you should be in Belgium because you just brought the border with you. If you consider the border of France, it i

    • This really ought to be moderated as +1 Humorless. Modding it +1 Informative implies you thought moving the rock was somehow legally binding.

  • If Canada did that it would be an act of war.

    PS: Is anybody checking if Trump's wall is correctly positioned down to the mm?

    • PS: Is anybody checking if Trump's wall is correctly positioned down to the mm?

      Since it's set back from the border a bit, yes.

      • correct, that way the U.S. military and law enforcement can shoot those near the wall with impunity, since those would be foreign invaders.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          Unless they miss and the bullet lands in Mexico... Of course people on the Mexican side could shoot U.S. military and law enforcement personnel and there probably isn't much anyone could do about it. The wall itself makes it hard to see and identify them even if extradition was possible.

          Turns out a border wall isn't such a great idea after all.

          • You're living in the past, wall has cameras and they're starting to use drones too. Shooting of U.S. personnel by Mexicans would bring down the hammer.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by guruevi ( 827432 )

      Unless the wall was built IN the Rio Grande, I don't think that's a problem. These things happen all the time, especially with Canada. The lines were drawn and treaties made by people that hadn't ever set foot in the Americas thus the border cuts through contiguous land, islands and other natural markers. The maps were horrendously inaccurate and thus you now have pieces of the US (eg. Michigan) in the middle of Canada, or NJ and NY technically still in dispute over an island.

      • "The lines were drawn and treaties made by people that hadn't ever set foot in the Americas thus the border cuts through contiguous land, islands and other natural markers."

        Yeah, in southern Quebec the border runs through the towns library:

        https://www.atlasobscura.com/a... [atlasobscura.com]

    • If Canada did that it would be an act of war.

      Canada has done much more than merely moving stone markers. In the battle for Hans Island [wikipedia.org] some Canadian citizens have even resorted to manipulating Google search results to assert their sovereignty.

    • Re: (Score:1, Troll)

      by wimg ( 300673 )

      Pretty sure Trump doesn't even know what a mm is... except in the context of guns, so he can get money from the NRA...

      • Trump was never a fan of the 2nd, he said as much.

        That didn't stop him from suggesting that maybe the 2nd amendment people could do something about a certain political opponent, though.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Wolfrider ( 856 )

          This is how you adult in world politics folks... Previous Dear Leader would have had a Twitler meltdown and red-phoned the Pentagon to inquire about TOTAL WAR options

        • Anything that makes Trump look like what he is will be considered "Flamebait".

          Look, I didn't make Trump a criminal, his father did that. He raised him to be a swindler, a con man, and a tax dodger and lo! He is.

    • you are assuming that Canada would be interested to grab a slice of your country. Having lived for some time in both countries, I think it cannot happen...

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by hawk ( 1151 )

      but I don't think Canada has the resources to try to move the French-canadian border . . . maybe if they annex the Atlantic first?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

        but I don't think Canada has the resources to try to move the French-canadian border . . . maybe if they annex the Atlantic first?

        There's a small territory of France just off of Newfoundland. St. Pierre and Miquelon [wikipedia.org] is a small territory of France in North America.

        It's basically France - they speak French and use Euros for currency (although, Canadian dollars are accepted unofficially). And yes, you have to go through customs and immigration when entering and leaving the place.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by necro81 ( 917438 )

      If Canada did that it would be an act of war.

      Appropriate CGPGrey video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMkYlIA7mgw [youtube.com]

    • Some of the controversy about Trump's wall is that it is well within the US border, and hence effectively removes private property from being able to be used by its US owners.

    • Great idea! Move the border to just south of Schenectady. Let Cuomo have everything south and east. We could call it South Ontario.

  • The French are known for their hair-trigger temperament and willingness to wage war.

  • At least everyone is keeping a sense of humor about this. The farmer will most likely grumble then move the stone back and everyone will go back to whatever.

    • I came here expecting the inevitable "France Surrenders" comments....

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by wimg ( 300673 )

        Well, they're probably debating who should file a complaint and where it should be filed over a bottle of bad wine ;-)

      • To be fair, we have never been invaded by farmers before, so we are ill-equipped to defend ourselves against this new threat. The anti-cow missiles are still in R&D, and the swiftness of the enemy's tractor has left our armored divisions completely helpless. The situation is dire and the general population is getting ready to flee Paris as soon as Covid19 lockdown is over. The government has already relocated to Marseille, which should be safer, and major political parties are calling for a truce.

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by pjt33 ( 739471 )

          It's no good relocating the government to Marseille: those Belgians have plenty of experience of coasts. Far better to locate to Briançon, because the invaders won't know how to handle hilly terrain.

        • The anti-cow missiles are still in R&D,

          You should consult West of Loathing [wikipedia.org] ... cows are no laughing matter!

    • His mistake was moving the distance all at once. Gradually and no one would have noticed.

  • "Instead of causing international uproar, the incident has been met with smiles on both sides of the border."

    "msmash, esteemed topic-finder at Slashdot.com, could not have been more dismayed, and summed it up nicely with the lamentation: 'How am I supposed to dress up this non-story? This is clearly an event of catastropic proportions and if it isn't clear to some, then I need to dig deep in to my journalistic integrity and come up with the most click-baity headline ever. That way it won't be a dupe when

  • There was a recent article in Nat Geo about the border between Pakistan and India, and how a change by a US cartographer (creating the Hodgson Line) contributed to the war in Kashmir.

    https://www.laughingplace.com/... [laughingplace.com]

  • Never underestimate the strategic value of agriculture!

  • It's just land.
    Everythinf else is pointless violence and hate.

    • It's just land.
      Everythinf else is pointless violence and hate.

      Hello neighbor, I'm glad you feel that way.

      Since a clear demarcation point of your rightful claim to a jurisdiction is just 'imaginary', and it's 'just land', then you won't mind when I park my rusty junk car on your front lawn. Thank you for your love and tolerance.

  • fun (Score:1)

    by Tom ( 822 )

    The reason I still love Europe, despite it's many flaws - two mayors had a phone call and a laugh about it, and that's all. Nobody threatened anyone with war or made a big deal out of it.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by wimg ( 300673 )

      If it weren't in Corona times, they'd probably have a "move-the-border-stone party" with French wine and cheese and Belgian beer and chocolate :-D

    • I'm sure the result would have been similar if it had involved the Canadian-U.S. border.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by cusco ( 717999 )

        Only if it were handled on the state/province level, once the Feds were involved there'd be armed guards posted at a minimum and the FBI/DEA/ATF would make sure that someone went to jail, the Proud Boys would be brandishing weapons at everyone, the Bundy brothers would show up to occupy it and trash the place, and the New York Times would would blow it up into a major international incident.

  • Love it :) (Score:4, Insightful)

    by cascadingstylesheet ( 140919 ) on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @04:17PM (#61347806) Journal
    If all international slights were met with such humor, it would be a better world!

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