CEO of AI Music Company Says People Don't Like Making Music 68
An anonymous reader quotes a report from 404 Media: Mikey Shulman, the CEO and founder of the AI music generator company Suno AI, thinks people don't enjoy making music. "We didn't just want to build a company that makes the current crop of creators 10 percent faster or makes it 10 percent easier to make music. If you want to impact the way a billion people experience music you have to build something for a billion people," Shulman said on the 20VC podcast. "And so that is first and foremost giving everybody the joys of creating music and this is a huge departure from how it is now. It's not really enjoyable to make music now [...] It takes a lot of time, it takes a lot of practice, you need to get really good at an instrument or really good at a piece of production software. I think the majority of people don't enjoy the majority of the time they spend making music."
Suno AI works like other popular generative AI tools, allowing users to generate music by writing text prompts describing the kind of music they want to hear. Also like many other generative AI tools, Suno was trained on heaps of copyrighted music it fed into its training dataset without consent, a practice Suno is currently being sued for by the recording industry. In the interview, Shulman says he's disappointed that the recording industry is suing his company because he believes Suno and other similar AI music generators will ultimately allow more people to make and enjoy music, which will only grow the audience and industry, benefiting everyone. That may end up being true, and could be compared to the history of electronic music, digital production tools, or any other technology that allowed more people to make more music.
Suno AI works like other popular generative AI tools, allowing users to generate music by writing text prompts describing the kind of music they want to hear. Also like many other generative AI tools, Suno was trained on heaps of copyrighted music it fed into its training dataset without consent, a practice Suno is currently being sued for by the recording industry. In the interview, Shulman says he's disappointed that the recording industry is suing his company because he believes Suno and other similar AI music generators will ultimately allow more people to make and enjoy music, which will only grow the audience and industry, benefiting everyone. That may end up being true, and could be compared to the history of electronic music, digital production tools, or any other technology that allowed more people to make more music.
What a shithead. (Score:5, Insightful)
The vast majority of people who make music do it only for the fun of it, not for remuneration or recognition.
Re:What a shithead. (Score:5, Insightful)
He doesn't understand that people will do hard work for a meaningful result.
It's not necessary to have fun the whole time.
The way dopamine works, in the natural sense, is that you get more reward for climbing a mountain to see the view than if you take a bus up.
Music making is also a proxy for sexual selection fitness, in terms of ability signals.
People get kudos for building a dining room table from boards, not buying one on Overstock.
Women will swoon for a singer/songwriter, not a guy with a 'killer' Spotify playlist.
Re:What a shithead. (Score:5, Interesting)
People like writing music because it's a skill they have that they can use. May as well say "people don't like to juggle, so we'll make a juggling machine." No, people do like juggling, it's fun. People like creating, it's fun. That includes creating music - and it's not just making up spontaneous sounds that sort of work together, composing is not easy. Even Jazz with all its improvisation is NOT easy. It's like asking why people paint when they can just take a photo.
Re: (Score:2)
There are tedious parts. I'd like some good AI mastering tools, for example. Get rid of these pops. Fix this seam. Stabilize this voice. Change this vowel to a different one. Etc.
The worst for me is when I feel like I'm fighting against my tool. I've been going through that a lot with Cinelerra lately. I know, it's not an ideal tool for mastering and I'm kind of asking for problems, but still...
Re: (Score:1)
You insensitive clod, I like the bus! [youtube.com]
Re: (Score:2)
He doesn't understand that people will do hard work for a meaningful result.
There in lies the problem. Making music requires hard work, dedication and a lot of failure. Most folk don't have the patience or dedication for it. I didn't, I can play the guitar but not to any level where I'd be comfortable playing in front of others... Most people don't even get that far. Along with being tone deaf, I also think a lot of people are tempo deaf too.
Women will swoon for a singer/songwriter, not a guy with a 'killer' Spotify playlist.
This... Unfortunately we've reduced music to a point where "everyone can be a musician" regardless of if they have any musical talent. Hence w
Re:What a shithead. (Score:5, Insightful)
I suspect this notion that "people don't enjoy making music" isn't coming from someone who is so out-of-touch that they believe this, but rather, from someone who is so interested in making money that they want us to believe it.
He wants to present his offering as something that is saving us unpleasant labor, not as something that is replacing us at something we like to do. It's just good marketing. Or at least an attempt at good marketing. So, that's the position he needs to take.
It's still an outright ridiculous position to take. There will still be interest in live performances and obtaining music made by humans. And of course there will still be plenty of people interested in making music. Nobody is going to actually accept this silly notion that people don't like doing it.
Just my suspicion though. I don' t know the guy. Maybe he really is this wrong.
Re: (Score:2)
The reason singers and songwriters collaborate is a lot of people that sing/perform very well, can't write for shit.. (and ironically it goes the same in reverse where a lot of song writers are out of touch with singing/performing that they don't understand how it plays out in reality). There are a few singers that do their own dirty work (ie: write).. and they do it because writing is cathartic to them.. performing/singing is just for them, reading their diary al
Re: (Score:2)
It's auto-tune plus auto-compose, so what could possibly go wrong? But yes, in case you haven't noticed yet and are still a youngster, CEOs are never chosen for their job by being intelligent, insightful, or wise.
Re:What a shithead. (Score:5, Interesting)
How fucking out of touch can these tech CEOs get. The vast majority of people who make music do it only for the fun of it, not for remuneration or recognition.
Well, yes and no. Yes, the CEO is an idiot.
But I think Gillian Welch [wikipedia.org] probably voices the view of the majority of musicians in this interview [theguardian.com] when she says:
"... if you don’t enable musicians to make their living playing music, you won’t get to hear it. I am never going to stop playing music, but if I can’t make a living at it, then I will stop playing it outside my living room."
Re: (Score:2)
This guy claims to be making this software for "a billion people." That goes orders of magnitude beyond the reasonable scope of
Re: What a shithead. (Score:4, Interesting)
He is not making a tool for a billion people to make music, he is making a tool for any "music creator" to reach a billion people... without going through the trouble of being a musician.
If you take him at face value, he's not dumb or out of touch - his market is not the people who are making or enjoying music right now. Its business people who want to sell music - but wish they didn't have to hire and deal with "the talent".
Re: (Score:2)
He is not making a tool for a billion people to make music, he is making a tool for any "music creator" to reach a billion people... without going through the trouble of being a musician.
If you take him at face value, he's not dumb or out of touch - his market is not the people who are making or enjoying music right now. Its business people who want to sell music - but wish they didn't have to hire and deal with "the talent".
Except that's not taking him at face value at all He literally says in the quote in TFS:
If you want to impact the way a billion people experience music you have to build something for a billion people," Shulman said on the 20VC podcast. "And so that is first and foremost giving everybody the joys of creating music "
I know reading comprehension here on /. tends to suck donkey balls, but geez man, it's right there in black and white. Or are you just being disingenuous? The "billion" he's referring to are clearly the creators, not the consumers of the end product.
Even if the second half of your post is true, which it very well may be in part, the whole point is that he wants to sell it to a billion creators. He wants to suckle fro
Re: (Score:2)
Key phrase in there is "outside my living room".
She'll still create music, she just won't do the pitching to a music publisher, recording, etc part.
Honestly, not endorsing his approach, but CEOs like this and the general culture they're a part of is why Luigi is so popular.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: What a shithead. (Score:2)
CEO is absolutely right (Score:2)
His target audience is music sellers not music lovers.
Re: (Score:2)
Sure, but most people don't enjoy creating music (I assume this because most people (as in more than half, though music is a quite large hobby) have other hobbies).
I don't think that being true means that all the sudden everyone is going to love making music because AI makes it easy.
But it's also disingenuous to subset people to people that make music and then extrapolate that most people love making music (or feel compelled to however they feel about it).
Re: (Score:2)
Exactky. Yes I'd absolutely love to make a living doing it, and I'll fight tooth and nail for the right to make money doing it, I create music because I was fucking born to write music. Its all I think about and about 80% of what I spend my spare time on.
"Dont enjoy making music" my arse. What an absolute knob gobbler this guy is. I hope the people who are suing him utterly bankerupt this motherfucker. I really do.
Re: (Score:2)
A better man with more talent than me once said
But sometimes I think it's all over
Sometimes I think it's all over
No more Coltrane, no more Duke
No more Monk, Jimi, Otis, Aretha or Sly
And no one seems to stop and wonder why
And I turn on the radio and it makes me wanna cry
Because I know it's never gonna come around again
And it makes me cry because I know that there's so many people
Who'll never get to hear Mahalia Jackson, Mississippi Fred McDowell
Lightning, Lemmon, Curtis, Marvin, and the Reverend Al Green
The airways are clogged and it's not looking good
In fact it's looking pretty mediocre out there
But I digress
Re: (Score:2)
How fucking out of touch can these tech CEOs get.
They aren't out of touch, they probably don't believe a word of what they say. Their literal job is to promote their companies, and spewing bullshit about why it's so awesome is right at the top of the job requirements.
no more divas? (Score:2)
Really? (Score:4, Insightful)
CEO of AI Music Company Says People Don't Like Making Music
Yet again one of these CEO types opens his mouth, says something and proves just how stupid the CEO class really is.
Re: (Score:1)
He does not have to be stupid, necessarily, he is just being condescending for the sake of being condescending.
Re: (Score:2)
MONEY!!!!
That's it.. full stop.. Which means anything that speeds along the creation process and gets to the area THEY care about which is how many songs can that thing s churn out and even if its "crap".. if its crap people buy.. so what.. (its the "netflix effect" but for music).
The netflix effect is where you flood the market on relatively mediocre movies and show.. (not necessarily bad... just not good).. but people don't care b
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Really? (Score:2)
When you don't have a value proposition (Score:2)
Shocking. (Score:1)
"Computer, I'd like to start a band called RUSH. I want the singer to sound like a chipmunk on Amphetamines. I want the drum parts to be unique and amazing all by themselves. Have the lyrics not be about the same tripe on the radio all the time, but instead meaningful in a way that makes you really think about things from a philosophical and human stand
hijack the language (Score:3)
*Doing* things is so 20th century. Now we just type a bit and wow! You're a musician!
Que the usual suspects defending this dickwad and the notion that you're an artist when you type into a command line.
Note: music is a type of art for the pedants who read this.
Re: (Score:2)
But it's hard! How are we going to get the new crop of 14 year old pop music stars and monetize them if they have to waste time learning how to compose?
Gear Acqusition Syndrome (Score:2)
They will still play when they can, but since they seldom can they buy gear instead. Relative of mine has rooms filled with amps & instruments and other various grewgaws related to their craft. In their youth they'd practice obsessively 8-10 hours a day making reams of music nobody would ev
Re:Gear Acqusition Syndrome (Score:4, Interesting)
I have seen this with "jam bands". People playing in their garages with friends, who have GAS, perhaps having practice space somewhere for their Mac Pros and racks of old school rack-mounted synths. They rock out all the time, and of course, none of their stuff is going to be published anywhere. They do it because they don't have to worry about being on cue at a gig or having to get the drummer a ton of channels worth of mics in order to have a decent mix [1].
I see this in other things as well. Have a friend who spins his own boards for his custom light show control boxes, and at most, he might stream what goes on to a few friends.
This is partially why I see a ton of people hitting renaissance and medieval faires. For example, the Pennsylvania faire always runs out of tickets. People want to see live people doing stuff on stage... unplugged, or with minimal amplification. Even faires that run for a couple weekends wind up standing room only, just because people want to get away from the electronics.
I have a feeling the pushback against this stuff is only beginning.
[1]: Top, bottom, snares, hi-hat, bass... usually 24 channels, minimum, just for the drumset.
Re: (Score:3)
Try either the "Recorder Man" (2 mics) or "Glyn Johns'" (3 mics) techniques. When done properly, a GREAT drum sound. (hint led Zeppelin, Rolling Stones and the Who all used Glyn Johns')
Re: (Score:1)
Now I do believe corporations don't like *paying" for music. That I believe.
I'm pretty sure that people don't like paying for it either (cough Napster cough).
What a fucking idiot (Score:2)
Of all the idiotic things I've read, this is the most idiotic. What a fucking shit-brained dullard.
Who hates making music? (Score:4, Insightful)
"It takes a lot of time, it takes a lot of practice, you need to get really good at an instrument... "
I wonder which instrument his parents demanded that he take lessons at, despite the fact that he has no musical talent or ability. Or is he just generalizing from his general failure at life: It seems hard and you have to DO things. Can't someone just invent a button I can push? Maybe the button can just steal the work that those stupid chumps are wasting their life producing? And better yet, I should own the button. I'm entitled to the good life! Not those idiot musicians wasting their lives. Music is just background for the true creatives, who are busy making videos that can be monetized.
When do we get to the part where he owns the copyright for all possible sequence of notes that can be computed?
another flamebait headline (Score:1)
According to TFS what he said was
It's not really enjoyable to make music now [...] It takes a lot of time, it takes a lot of practice, you need to get really good at an instrument or really good at a piece of production software. I think the majority of people don't enjoy the majority of the time they spend making music."
which is not at all the same as TFH, "People Don't Like Making Music"
It's true that a lot of people don't love practicing, and that for a lot of musicians the majority of your music time, especially early on, is spent practicing.
Depends on step (Score:2)
I really like the idea of AI making very rough demos into decent demos. A have gazilion song ideas, but am slow at digitally notating & sequencing all the parts together. If anyone knows a good product for such, please let me know.
There is:
C -> R -> G -> P
C = composing idea
R = rough demo
G = good demo
P = publishable version
It might a while before AI does all these steps well, but R to G seems a relatively simple goal; just follow the patterns of gazillion pop-tunes (assuming pop music).
CEO Chatbot Bro (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
"Most CEOs hate the people that work for them and their job."
When the UNH CEO was murdered, my first thought was that it was a disgruntled employee. This is because I used to work there and I know what the environment is like there. I know some CEOs are clueless hype machines. Maybe this CEO is just a chatbot.
I love playing music. I've learned 3 instruments (brass, woodwind, string) fairly well, but even so, when I play, the people in my house either leave or just tolerate my goofiness. Rarely I'll get
Even though I myself do not like to make music... (Score:2)
I like making music (Score:2)
I like making music too (Score:2)
So he's twice as wrong.
The thing that makes the music industry shitty is the guys like him running it, or trying to.
or everyone is using Udio (Score:1)
We've needed this for so long (Score:2)
"It takes three-to-five rockers to produce a rock album. With this, you don't need anyone. One machine can do all those things they send men to the studio to do now. Men no longer need die choking on their own vomit. Men can live and go on to achieve greater things than music-making and fucking groupies, which are neither ours to give or to take. They can't understand. We don't want to destroy rock, we want to save it!" -- Dr. Richard Daystrom
AI gives us exactly what we do NOT need. (Score:1)
Don't like or aren't good at (Score:2)
I'm not going to jump on the "what an idiot" train, but this guy is being quoted out of context. At the end of the day, making original music is hard work. Yeah, you might dream up a catchy riff or hook, but that doesn’t make it a song. It seems like he means most amateur musicians either aren't good at transposing inspiration into music or they want immediate gratification without having to put in the effort to learn an instrument and perfect a composition. For those people, an AI tool is an option i
Those who can't make music.. (Score:2)
..shouldn't!
(excluding people w/ disabilities of course)
If we allow AI copyright it just comes sooner (Score:2)
Melancholy elephants https://www.spiderrobinson.com... [spiderrobinson.com]
The Dream (Score:2)
Should be interesting to see this fail.
Music vs. love of music vs. talent (Score:2)
I'd love to make great music, and I play piano and it takes me months to learn a song. I also love messing with AI music things like Suno for fun, I can create silly songs I send to my friends that I could never make in real life, as I didn't dedicate my career to becoming that good. But I'd never try to sell it or replace real artists with it.
I think people still generally regard human-created art as higher quality. It's like how people still put immense value in seeing and buying real art despite every ph
Advertisement again (Score:3)
It's ephemeral content, really (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
As someone that makes a 2nd income playing in a band that includes our own written songs (not using AI) that we've played 100's of times to just as many different large audiences, I think you're clearly missing something.
A parallel anecdote (Score:2)
I don't see AI taking over truly creative work any time soon.
A few days ago, an acquaintance (in IT like me) posted a story on social media that he asked a recently released chatbot to come up with as a test - he specified some not-too-mainstream historical, political and religious parameters and a non-English language in his prompt.
While the story in outline looked a good fit for his ask, the language itself was very much in what must be the literary equivalent of the Uncanny Valley [wikipedia.org]. It was stilted like
Re: (Score:2)
I look forward to your lyrical software documentation, accompanied by flute. :-)